News Intel Bartlett Lake-S: up to 12P-Core or up to 8P-Core +16E-core

Wolverine2349 · Jan 12, 2025

Hulk said:
So a 12 core Bartlett Lake is going to be more performant than a 9900X?

For gaming in all 99.99% of scenarios heck yes. Even 8 core Raptor Lake with the e-cores spank vanilla Zen 5 in gaming. But the 3D vcache changes that!!

12 P cores on one die so much better than 2 6 core CCDs which besides just bad latency AMD has their own scheduling gimmick which has issues of its own. Its not just the dual CCD with one 3D cache and one non-3D cache. Its all dual CCD CPUs that have the scheduling issues.

Though unfortunately 12 P core Bartlett Lake probably not happening. So 9800X3D it is for now!!!

igor_kavinski · Jan 12, 2025

Wolverine2349 said:
Though unfortunately 12 P core Bartlett Lake probably not happening.

Then Intel is screwed. Either make that happen or they need to rush out a fixed Arrow Lake with only one E-core enabled in each cluster and everything just tuned to deliver max ST performance.

Wolverine2349 · Jan 12, 2025

igor_kavinski said:
Then Intel is screwed. Either make that happen or they need to rush out a fixed Arrow Lake with only one E-core enabled in each cluster and everything just tuned to deliver max ST performance.

I agree Intel is screwed. They should release it but unfortunately the rumors are so vague I doubt it is happening. I hope to be wrong.

OneEng2 · Jan 12, 2025

Wolverine2349 said:
For gaming in all 99.99% of scenarios heck yes. Even 8 core Raptor Lake with the e-cores spank vanilla Zen 5 in gaming. But the 3D vcache changes that!!

12 P cores on one die so much better than 2 6 core CCDs which besides just bad latency AMD has their own scheduling gimmick which has issues of its own. Its not just the dual CCD with one 3D cache and one non-3D cache. Its all dual CCD CPUs that have the scheduling issues.

Though unfortunately 12 P core Bartlett Lake probably not happening. So 9800X3D it is for now!!!

Intel's current Arrow Lake design suffers from latency issues across the board. Gaming is just the most effected application by this design problem.

AMD's 3D cache is the best solution to date for latency issues (for applications where the critical parts can be kept in cache). Both Intel and AMD will likely have a much better IOD in the future that addresses latency ..... but I suspect that 3D cache is going to remain the superior solution for gaming for some time to come.

In other words, I don't think anything on the Intel roadmap is going to be displacing the 9800X3D in gaming.

What has been interesting is the performance of Arrow Lake in Cinebench 24. It appears that for moderate compute, high bandwidth applications, Arrow Lake and its horde of little cores does very well.

Thunder 57 · Jan 12, 2025

Wolverine2349 said:
Even 8 core Raptor Lake with the e-cores spank vanilla Zen 5 in gaming.

Bunk.

ondma · Jan 13, 2025

Wolverine2349 said:
For gaming in all 99.99% of scenarios heck yes. Even 8 core Raptor Lake with the e-cores spank vanilla Zen 5 in gaming. But the 3D vcache changes that!!

12 P cores on one die so much better than 2 6 core CCDs which besides just bad latency AMD has their own scheduling gimmick which has issues of its own. Its not just the dual CCD with one 3D cache and one non-3D cache. Its all dual CCD CPUs that have the scheduling issues.

Though unfortunately 12 P core Bartlett Lake probably not happening. So 9800X3D it is for now!!!

I dont get this obsession with an outdated Intel architecture that runs hot, gulps power, and has still possible stability issues. And 12 P cores would run even hotter and consume more power. I am not at all convinced that 12 cores on one bus would outperform an 8 P core Intel chip, and certainly not an AMD 3d V cache chip. The only possible case I see for this is if games coming out require more than 8 strong cores, where one would be forced to use the dual CCD vCache chips.

dullard · Jan 13, 2025

ondma said:
I dont get this obsession with an outdated Intel architecture that runs hot, gulps power, and has still possible stability issues. And 12 P cores would run even hotter and consume more power. I am not at all convinced that 12 cores on one bus would outperform an 8 P core Intel chip, and certainly not an AMD 3d V cache chip. The only possible case I see for this is if games coming out require more than 8 strong cores, where one would be forced to use the dual CCD vCache chips.

He doesn't understand that to add cores, each core has to use less power since power is limited, and thus each core becomes weaker. Also the more cores the more latency to send data around. Since most games generally cannot be programmed to use more cores effectively, that the 12 weak core CPU will often perform worse than an 8 strong core CPU. Games are not artificial benchmarks or mathematical equation software that can readily accept core spamming. It is only on a select few titles will 12 cores be a good idea. And then, you still have to determine if 12 weak cores is better than 8 stronger cores. We have explained it many times, but there appears to be no such thing as a tradeoff for Wolverine2349. The only thought seems to be that 12 > 8, and that nothing else matters.

coercitiv · Jan 13, 2025

Wolverine2349 said:
Even 8 core Raptor Lake with the e-cores spank vanilla Zen 5 in gaming. But the 3D vcache changes that!!

I would not call it spanking... maybe ear-licking.

ondma · Jan 14, 2025

coercitiv said:
I would not call it spanking... maybe ear-licking.

View attachment 114862

Is this from TPU, and is it the latest results with the fixes for Raptor Lake, Arrow Lake, and Zen 5? The 285K is actually showing up better than I expected. It is competitive against everything except the v Cache chips. I also thought the latest BIOS updates showed Zen 5 gaining a few percent vs the previous gen.

coercitiv · Jan 14, 2025

ondma said:
Is this from TPU, and is it the latest results with the fixes for Raptor Lake, Arrow Lake, and Zen 5? The 285K is actually showing up better than I expected. It is competitive against everything except the v Cache chips. I also thought the latest BIOS updates showed Zen 5 gaining a few percent vs the previous gen.

AFAIK TPU did not test vanilla Zen 5 with the Win patches, so I looked for HUBs graphs from ARL review day (via Techspot). I did check TPU for a sanity check, and their results are relatively close though obviously lower for AMD. As far as the latest fixes for ARL, I'm completely in the dark on whether they help them at all, the data floating around is very confusing as it hints towards performance regression instead. I think they need more fixing or a more reliable method of patching.

gdansk · Jan 14, 2025

That would be a good hill upon which to die but AMD already took it.

ondma · Jan 15, 2025

Actually, aren't some multi threaded applications the best case use for ARL? I thought this was the only place where they performed well.

DAPUNISHER · Jan 15, 2025

Wolverine2349 said:
Though unfortunately 12 P core Bartlett Lake probably not happening.

I hope you are wrong about that. I'd like to see 12 strong cores with no SMT or little cores.

DrMrLordX · Jan 15, 2025

ondma said:
Actually, aren't some multi threaded applications the best case use for ARL? I thought this was the only place where they performed well.

It varies.

Intel Core Ultra 9 285K Review

Finally! Intel's new Arrow Lake architecture is launched. The new CPUs are full of design changes, like removal of Hyper-Threading, new Lion Cove P-Cores, an improved Thread Director and more. In our review we got surprising results that were both impressive and disappointing.

www.techpowerup.com

It's pretty well-known to do well in CBR24.

Wolverine2349 · Jan 15, 2025

ondma said:
I dont get this obsession with an outdated Intel architecture that runs hot, gulps power, and has still possible stability issues. And 12 P cores would run even hotter and consume more power. I am not at all convinced that 12 cores on one bus would outperform an 8 P core Intel chip, and certainly not an AMD 3d V cache chip. The only possible case I see for this is if games coming out require more than 8 strong cores, where one would be forced to use the dual CCD vCache chips.

The last sentence is precisely why a 12 P core would be great from Intel.

And replace the word require more than 8 strong cores with heavily benefit. Few to no games do right now heavily benefit form more than 8 cores. But they could be coming or who knows?? Maybe Cities Skylines 1 and 2 with larger populations do heavily benefit more than 8 strong cores out of existing games???

Wolverine2349 · Jan 15, 2025

DAPUNISHER said:
I hope you are wrong about that. I'd like to see 12 strong cores with no SMT or little cores.

I hope to be wrong too. I want more than 8 strong cores on a modern arch on a single die so no hybrid scheduling or dual CCD scheduling/latency crap.

DAPUNISHER · Jan 15, 2025

Wolverine2349 said:
The last sentence is precisely why a 12 P core would be great from Intel.

And replace the word require more than 8 strong cores with heavily benefit. Few to no games do right now heavily benefit form more than 8 cores. But they could be coming or who knows?? Maybe Cities Skylines 1 and 2 with larger populations do heavily benefit more than 8 strong cores out of existing games???

I think MS Flight Sim would like them. Same with Space Marine 2, Hogwarts, Spiderman games, and some others.

ondma · Jan 15, 2025

Wolverine2349 said:
The last sentence is precisely why a 12 P core would be great from Intel.

And replace the word require more than 8 strong cores with heavily benefit. Few to no games do right now heavily benefit form more than 8 cores. But they could be coming or who knows?? Maybe Cities Skylines 1 and 2 with larger populations do heavily benefit more than 8 strong cores out of existing games???

Or, you could hope for more cores per CCD from AMD. Isnt this rumored for Zen 6?

Thunder 57 · Jan 15, 2025

ondma said:
Or, you could hope for more cores per CCD from AMD. Isnt this rumored for Zen 6?

12 seems to be a popular rumor. But is it 12 full cores or something like 4 Zen 6 + 8 Zen 6c cores?

Hulk · Jan 15, 2025

Thunder 57 said:
12 seems to be a popular rumor. But is it 12 full cores or something like 4 Zen 6 + 8 Zen 6c cores?

For the available area 12+20 would be nice. Meaning 12 Zen 6 and 20 6c, or however many would fit in the area of 12 Zen cores. Fire up the 2nd CCD when you need massive MT!

dttprofessor · Jan 15, 2025

without igpu？

Thunder 57 · Jan 15, 2025

dttprofessor said:
without igpu？

That's on the IOD.

adroc_thurston · Jan 16, 2025

Thunder 57 said:
But is it 12 full cores or something like 4 Zen 6 + 8 Zen 6c cores?

either 12C or 6C + 6c on the opposite sides of the ring.

News Intel Bartlett Lake-S: up to 12P-Core or up to 8P-Core +16E-core

Senior member

Lifer

Senior member

Senior member

Diamond Member

Diamond Member

Elite Member

Diamond Member

Diamond Member

Diamond Member

Diamond Member

Diamond Member

Super Moderator CPU Forum Mod and Elite Member

Lifer

Senior member

Senior member

Super Moderator CPU Forum Mod and Elite Member

Diamond Member

Diamond Member

Diamond Member

Member

Diamond Member

Diamond Member