Is There An Electrician In The House?

Carbo

Diamond Member
Aug 6, 2000
5,253
8
81
I purchased this set of string lights to light up a rear patio. It's 48 feet in length, which is about 10 feet more than needed. For now I have hung up the excess but I would like to know if it's possible to cut off the excess and splice it into some type of end plug?
 

Carbo

Diamond Member
Aug 6, 2000
5,253
8
81
Easier than expected. Best way to cut through the fairly thick cable?
 

GodisanAtheist

Diamond Member
Nov 16, 2006
7,478
8,252
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That's one of those lessons that's best learned the hard way. The bright flash, the spattering molten copper, the ruined $50 wire strippers. It's a right of passage that every young man needs to go through.

-Let's not forget all the compound swear words that come pouring out of one's mouth...
 

bbhaag

Diamond Member
Jul 2, 2011
7,013
2,408
146
That's one of those lessons that's best learned the hard way. The bright flash, the spattering molten copper, the ruined $50 wire strippers. It's a right of passage that every young man needs to go through.
I have to unfortunately admit that I've had to learn that lesson more than just once....lol
 
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Paperdoc

Platinum Member
Aug 17, 2006
2,410
322
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WAIT! I REALLY recommend you pose this question to the light maker, Feit. All the posts above, including your original query, ASSUME that the entire set of lights in one string are connected in PARALLEL to a pair of Hot and Neutral wires along the cable. I think that is WRONG. The lamps are all LED's that run on low voltage, and such a string OFTEN is lamps in SERIES. NOTE the "feature" that if one or two lamps burns out, the rest of the string STILL WORKS! Just like a series-string Christmas tree light set. You would NEVER have such a "feature" listed for lamps on a parallel connection scheme.

IF I am right, reducing the number of lamps in series from 24 to 20 means that that each lamp will be fed 6 V instead of 5 V, or 20% higher. That will reduce their lifetime. ASK Feit if that will cause a problem. I bet at least it will void your warranty.
 

Greenman

Lifer
Oct 15, 1999
21,447
5,919
136
I have to unfortunately admit that I've had to learn that lesson more than just once....lol
The third or fourth time I did it was tightening a loose lug on a meter feed, 200 amp service. Shaft of the screwdriver touched the box and all hell broke lose. Chewed a fair sized hole in the panel before I could pull it lose, and had more than a few burns on my hands.
That's what's called a class one stupid thing to do. Though I did get the lug tightened, the job finished, and collected my check. No one ever mentioned the big hole burned through the meter panel.
 

Greenman

Lifer
Oct 15, 1999
21,447
5,919
136
WAIT! I REALLY recommend you pose this question to the light maker, Feit. All the posts above, including your original query, ASSUME that the entire set of lights in one string are connected in PARALLEL to a pair of Hot and Neutral wires along the cable. I think that is WRONG. The lamps are all LED's that run on low voltage, and such a string OFTEN is lamps in SERIES. NOTE the "feature" that if one or two lamps burns out, the rest of the string STILL WORKS! Just like a series-string Christmas tree light set. You would NEVER have such a "feature" listed for lamps on a parallel connection scheme.

IF I am right, reducing the number of lamps in series from 24 to 20 means that that each lamp will be fed 6 V instead of 5 V, or 20% higher. That will reduce their lifetime. ASK Feit if that will cause a problem. I bet at least it will void your warranty.
I have the same lights, they're 120v bulbs. No transformer.
 

mindless1

Diamond Member
Aug 11, 2001
8,538
1,651
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The lamps are all LED's that run on low voltage, and such a string OFTEN is lamps in SERIES. NOTE the "feature" that if one or two lamps burns out, the rest of the string STILL WORKS! Just like a series-string Christmas tree light set. You would NEVER have such a "feature" listed for lamps on a parallel connection scheme.
I see your point there, except that it seems like they could still want to advertise that if one lamp burns out, the rest still work, even if they were all in parallel, because it's still true. It would be a marketing angle rather than a scientific necessity.

However, and this also addresses what Greenman wrote, it could have been a 120V set without a transformer, by simply wiring it to have about 35 LEDs in series, or fewer with resistors, except for a couple of issues.

1) They state that they are "Linkable up to 45 sets" and while it wouldn't be impossible to wire the mains voltage through to do that, it does suggest that it is more likely that 110VAC is running the length of the run and would be cheaper to supply 110VAC to each bulb.

2) Look at the pictures. These aren't 1 LED per bulb but instead one of those dies-on-a-wire filament type bulbs, so they do seem to be set up for 110V each bulb and the series of LED dies within each bulb is what is in series. Rough example of the dies-on-a-wire LED filament:


This does not make it impossible to run the bulbs in series, but you couldn't run all in a single series because the forward voltage drop of that many LED filaments with *many* LED dies in series on each filament, would exceed 120VAC. I do have incandescent Christmas light strings that have three separate series of bulbs, where if one goes out, 1/3 of the whole set of lights stops working, but this goes against the statement they made for this LED set, that if one lamp burns out, the rest still work.
 
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herm0016

Diamond Member
Feb 26, 2005
8,484
1,101
126
Hello. actual electrician. good discussion above. These style strings are usually in parallel, for cutting it down, I would just put a female plug on the end with a cover or tape so you can plug more lights in later or if you change the configuration.

also, its probably 16 or 14 gauge wire. That's not even close to a thick cable. nearly anything will cut it. you will have to use a box cutter to strip back some of the jacket and wire insulation if you go my route.

You will have to strip back jacket and separate the conductors with some electrical tape or put a wire nut on each conductor if you just put it in some kind of box or similar.

thick cables require hydraulic shears or a small bandsaw for trimming. I prefer my little battery bandsaw.
 

herm0016

Diamond Member
Feb 26, 2005
8,484
1,101
126
I have the same lights, they're 120v bulbs. No transformer.

there would be no transformer either way. The lights would be wired with, for example, each 10 12volt bulbs in series making the 10 in series drop 120volts across it. This is why a section of cheap xmas lights goes out at once when one bulb fails.
 

Carbo

Diamond Member
Aug 6, 2000
5,253
8
81
Hello. actual electrician. good discussion above. These style strings are usually in parallel, for cutting it down, I would just put a female plug on the end with a cover or tape so you can plug more lights in later or if you change the configuration.

also, its probably 16 or 14 gauge wire. That's not even close to a thick cable. nearly anything will cut it. you will have to use a box cutter to strip back some of the jacket and wire insulation if you go my route.

You will have to strip back jacket and separate the conductors with some electrical tape or put a wire nut on each conductor if you just put it in some kind of box or similar.

thick cables require hydraulic shears or a small bandsaw for trimming. I prefer my little battery bandsaw.
It is 16 gauge wire and a second look and, yes, this isn't a thick cable and should be an easy cut. Since I have no plan to add to these lights, a simple cut and cap is my plan. Can I just cut the wire without stripping it, and using something like this to cap it?
 

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Greenman

Lifer
Oct 15, 1999
21,447
5,919
136
You can, but you shouldn't. It should be properly terminated with a cable end or in a junction box. Were talking about a few bucks and a half hours time, do it right.
 

Paperdoc

Platinum Member
Aug 17, 2006
2,410
322
126
In a set of LED lamps powered from a 120VAC source there does NOT need to be any transformer, so its LACK proves nothing. A SINGLE LED diode will have to be supplied with a DC supply, typically in the range 3 to 6 VDC. For a SERIES string of such single LED's, that DC power supply unit is designed to supply to the STRING as a whole a DC Voltage sufficient to give the proper DC Voltage drop across EACH LED in the string. For example, a power supply module with an input of 120 VAC could output 100 VDC to a string of 20 individual LED's, each of which gets a 5 VDC supply across it. That would suffice for lamps with a small light output per LED lamp. If these are small LED's that each consume 0.5W of power (10 W total for the string), the solid state power supply circuit is relatively simple and can be done with no transformer.

What about MORE light output per lamp? The simplest is to manufacture with a string of SEVERAL LED's in one small strip and that unit is mounted in a lamp bulb (for protection, not for vacuum as an incandescent is) with the power supply module in the lamp base. A single strip of LEDs like that in one lamp is the same as as strip of individually mounted single LED's like a tree light strip. If you need more light output (using the same type of LED) you can simply mount several such strips into one bulb envelope, with each strip connected in parallel to that same DC supply. If you have looked closely at CLEAR lamps for use in 120 VAC common fixtures with LED elements, you will see those several strips (often 3 or 4) of tiny square elements. Again, even for 25W power consumption the power supply circuit is small with no transformer and fits into the lamp base. Today a typical 25W LED lamp will produce enough light to be labelled as "150W Equivalent".

NOTE here that those "more output" individual lamps with MANY LED's are the type commonly sold for use in our "regular" lamp sockets in place of older incandescent lamps and include a power supply module in EACH lamp device. These ARE designed to fit into single-lamp sockets fed from 120 VAC supply lines, so they always are connected in PARALLEL to the supply. BUT within each lamp, each small SERIES string of tiny LED's MIGHT fail due to the failure of ONE LED chip, but any other strips in parallel would still function. I note also that it appears to me that most such lamps fail NOT because to LED failure inside, but because elements of the solid state DC power supply module in the lamp base fail.

But back to the simplest set of "Christmas tree light string". The older incandescent lamp sets were designed with just the right number of small lamps in series to work on a total 120 VAC supply. For example, a string might have 50 lamps rated for 2.5 VAC each (125 VAC total). A 100 lamp set actually is two such 50-lamp sets wired together in parallel from the 120 VAC supply. If you look closely at the 50-lamp string it has two wires running along it, but connections to each lamp socket are ONLY to ONE of those wires so the sockets are all in series. The other wire runs untouched from the plug to the far end of the string where it IS connected to the LAST lamp socket. There BOTH wires also are connected to a female standard outlet socket so you can connect several strings together from one wall outlet. Because of the series connections of all lamps, failure of ONE means that entire string goes "dead". For that reason more modern lamps are made with small "shunt resistors" in parallel with each lamp's filament. That resistor does NOT provide light but DOES allow the proper current flow through, so the failure of ONE such lamp means that only that lamp will go "dead" while the rest of the series string still lights. You can buy replacement lamps for this type (getting rarer!) because failure necessitating replacement is VERY common.

The newer LED Christmas tree light strings are different because you cannot run them on AC. But they do consume very little power so each such string has a very small Power Supply circuit built into its power cord plug. Again there are two wires running the length of the string - one connecting through each lamp socket in series, and a second running undisturbed to the far end to connect to the last socket. BUT there is also a THIRD wire. That one is simply to carry the original 120 VAC supply from the source plug to the end-of-string female outlet plug (along with use of the undisturbed wire) to make such power available to the NEXT string on your tree. MOST such strings do NOT contain replaceable lamps because makers have not standardized such, and do NOT expect frequent failures requiring lamp replacement. Whole string replacement is the plan.

So, any string of low-power lights can be made with LED's as a SERIES circuit of DC lamps without tell-tale transformers or bulky obvious power supply modules. However, mindless1 above makes a GOOD point. That is NOT the only way, and I may be wrong on this caution. It IS possible that the light string OP has bought is made with PARALLEL connections to the full 120 VAC supply along the entire light string, and indivdual power supply modules built into each lamp base. The lamps here are suffuciently unique (both electrically and in appearance) to warrant having a few spares supplied with the set. mindless1 is correct to suggest, "it seems like they could still want to advertise that if one lamp burns out, the rest still work, even if they were all in parallel, because it's still true. It would be a marketing angle rather than a scientific necessity." Those lamps may even be designed with "normal" bases that fit our common light fixtures. If that is the case, shortening the string is NOT a problem.
 
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Greenman

Lifer
Oct 15, 1999
21,447
5,919
136
In a set of LED lamps powered from a 120VAC source there does NOT need to be any transformer, so its LACK proves nothing. A SINGLE LED diode will have to be supplied with a DC supply, typically in the range 3 to 6 VDC. For a SERIES string of such single LED's, that DC power supply unit is designed to supply to the STRING as a whole a DC Voltage sufficient to give the proper DC Voltage drop across EACH LED in the string. For example, a power supply module with an input of 120 VAC could output 100 VDC to a string of 20 individual LED's, each of which gets a 5 VDC supply across it. That would suffice for lamps with a small light output per LED lamp. If these are small LED's that each consume 0.5W of power (10 W total for the string), the solid state power supply circuit is relatively simple and can be done with no transformer.

What about MORE light output per lamp? The simplest is to manufacture with a string of SEVERAL LED's in one small strip and that unit is mounted in a lamp bulb (for protection, not for vacuum as an incandescent is) with the power supply module in the lamp base. A single strip of LEDs like that in one lamp is the same as as strip of individually mounted single LED's like a tree light strip. If you need more light output (using the same type of LED) you can simply mount several such strips into one bulb envelope, with each strip connected in parallel to that same DC supply. If you have looked closely at CLEAR lamps for use in 120 VAC common fixtures with LED elements, you will see those several strips (often 3 or 4) of tiny square elements. Again, even for 25W power consumption the power supply circuit is small with no transformer and fits into the lamp base. Today a typical 25W LED lamp will produce enough light to be labelled as "150W Equivalent".

NOTE here that those "more output" individual lamps with MANY LED's are the type commonly sold for use in our "regular" lamp sockets in place of older incandescent lamps and include a power supply module in EACH lamp device. These ARE designed to fit into single-lamp sockets fed from 120 VAC supply lines, so they always are connected in PARALLEL to the supply. BUT within each lamp, each small SERIES string of tiny LED's MIGHT fail due to the failure of ONE LED chip, but any other strips in parallel would still function. I note also that it appears to me that most such lamps fail NOT because to LED failure inside, but because elements of the solid state DC power supply module in the lamp base fail.

But back to the simplest set of "Christmas tree light string". The older incandescent lamp sets were designed with just the right number of small lamps in series to work on a total 120 VAC supply. For example, a string might have 50 lamps rated for 2.5 VAC each (125 VAC total). A 100 lamp set actually is two such 50-lamp sets wired together in parallel from the 120 VAC supply. If you look closely at the 50-lamp string it has two wires running along it, but connections to each lamp socket are ONLY to ONE of those wires so the sockets are all in series. The other wire runs untouched from the plug to the far end of the string where it IS connected to the LAST lamp socket. There BOTH wires also are connected to a female standard outlet socket so you can connect several strings together from one wall outlet. Because of the series connections of all lamps, failure of ONE means that entire string goes "dead". For that reason more modern lamps are made with small "shunt resistors" in parallel with each lamp's filament. That resistor does NOT provide light but DOES allow the proper current flow through, so the failure of ONE such lamp means that only that lamp will go "dead" while the rest of the series string still lights. You can buy replacement lamps for this type (getting rarer!) because failure necessitating replacement is VERY common.

The newer LED Christmas tree light strings are different because you cannot run them on AC. But they do consume very little power so each such string has a very small Power Supply circuit built into its power cord plug. Again there are two wires running the length of the string - one connecting through each lamp socket in series, and a second running undisturbed to the far end to connect to the last socket. BUT there is also a THIRD wire. That one is simply to carry the original 120 VAC supply from the source plug to the end-of-string female outlet plug (along with use of the undisturbed wire) to make such power available to the NEXT string on your tree. MOST such strings do NOT contain replaceable lamps because makers have not standardized such, and do NOT expect frequent failures requiring lamp replacement. Whole string replacement is the plan.

So, any string of low-power lights can be made with LED's as a SERIES circuit of DC lamps without tell-tale transformers or bulky obvious power supply modules. However, mindless1 above makes a GOOD point. That is NOT the only way, and I may be wrong on this caution. It IS possible that the light string OP has bought is made with PARALLEL connections to the full 120 VAC supply along the entire light string, and indivdual power supply modules built into each lamp base. The lamps here are suffuciently unique (both electrically and in appearance) to warrant having a few spares supplied with the set. mindless1 is correct to suggest, "it seems like they could still want to advertise that if one lamp burns out, the rest still work, even if they were all in parallel, because it's still true. It would be a marketing angle rather than a scientific necessity." Those lamps may even be designed with "normal" bases that fit our common light fixtures. If that is the case, shortening the string is NOT a problem.
So the simple solution is to test the last light in the string and see if it's a over a 100 volts AC?
 

Paperdoc

Platinum Member
Aug 17, 2006
2,410
322
126
Greenman: no. That will not tell you.

It's even easier than that. With the string lit up, remove one bulb from anywhere. If the string is SERIES wired, that will turn off the entire string, and replacing the bulb will make it work again. If the string is PARALLEL connections, then removing one bulb will NOT turn off any others. Since spare bulbs are supplied with the string, I assume you CAN remove one bulb at a time.

My original note of caution applies ONLY if this test says the string is a SERIES connection system.
 

Greenman

Lifer
Oct 15, 1999
21,447
5,919
136
Greenman: no. That will not tell you.

It's even easier than that. With the string lit up, remove one bulb from anywhere. If the string is SERIES wired, that will turn off the entire string, and replacing the bulb will make it work again. If the string is PARALLEL connections, then removing one bulb will NOT turn off any others. Since spare bulbs are supplied with the string, I assume you CAN remove one bulb at a time.

My original note of caution applies ONLY if this test says the string is a SERIES connection system.
Got it, thanks.
I have those same lights in my backyard and one of the bulbs is out right now.
 

herm0016

Diamond Member
Feb 26, 2005
8,484
1,101
126
It is 16 gauge wire and a second look and, yes, this isn't a thick cable and should be an easy cut. Since I have no plan to add to these lights, a simple cut and cap is my plan. Can I just cut the wire without stripping it, and using something like this to cap it?
In all reality, putting these on the unstripped wire ends and shoving the end in an outdoor box with a cord grip will be fine.



available at any hardware store individually.
 

Paperdoc

Platinum Member
Aug 17, 2006
2,410
322
126
How to end that wire? Well, IF you find you have a parallel connection system, that means that the wires in the cord certainly carry 120 VAC, limited probably to 15 A max by the breaker on the wall circuit. So consider: would you snip the head off the end of a multi-outlet extension cord and then just leave that lying open? Definitely not! You would cut back the outer insulation layer for access, then COVER EACH separate wire with a proper insulating cap or at least some vinyl electrical tape. You might even do an extra layer of tape over the collected two wires.
 
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