Discussion Intel Meteor, Arrow, Lunar & Panther Lakes Discussion Threads

Tigerick · Aug 22, 2022

As Hot Chips 34 starting this week, Intel will unveil technical information of upcoming Meteor Lake (MTL) and Arrow Lake (ARL), new generation platform after Raptor Lake. Both MTL and ARL represent new direction which Intel will move to multiple chiplets and combine as one SoC platform.

MTL also represents new compute tile that based on Intel 4 process which is based on EUV lithography, a first from Intel. Intel expects to ship MTL mobile SoC in 2023.

ARL will come after MTL so Intel should be shipping it in 2024, that is what Intel roadmap is telling us. ARL compute tile will be manufactured by Intel 20A process, a first from Intel to use GAA transistors called RibbonFET.

Comparison of upcoming Intel's U-series CPU: Core Ultra 100U, Lunar Lake and Panther Lake

Model	Code-Name	Date	TDP	Node	Tiles	Main Tile	CPU	LP E-Core	LLC	GPU	Xe-cores
Core Ultra 100U	Meteor Lake	Q4 2023	15 - 57 W	Intel 4 + N5 + N6	4	tCPU	2P + 8E	2	12 MB	Intel Graphics	4
?	Lunar Lake	Q4 2024	17 - 30 W	N3B + N6	2	CPU + GPU & IMC	4P + 4E	0	12 MB	Arc	8
?	Panther Lake	Q1 2026 ?	?	Intel 18A + N3E	3	CPU + MC	4P + 8E	4	?	Arc	12

Comparison of die size of Each Tile of Meteor Lake, Arrow Lake, Lunar Lake and Panther Lake

	Meteor Lake	Arrow Lake (N3B)	Lunar Lake	Panther Lake
Platform	Mobile H/U Only	Desktop & Mobile H&HX	Mobile U Only	Mobile H
Process Node	Intel 4	TSMC N3B	TSMC N3B	Intel 18A
Date	Q4 2023	Desktop-Q4-2024 H&HX-Q1-2025	Q4 2024	Q1 2026 ?
Full Die	6P + 8P	8P + 16E	4P + 4E	4P + 8E
LLC	24 MB	36 MB ?	12 MB	?
tCPU	66.48
tGPU	44.45
SoC	96.77
IOE	44.45
Total	252.15

Intel Core Ultra 100 - Meteor Lake

As mentioned by Tomshardware, TSMC will manufacture the I/O, SoC, and GPU tiles. That means Intel will manufacture only the CPU and Foveros tiles. (Notably, Intel calls the I/O tile an 'I/O Expander,' hence the IOE moniker.)

mvprod123 · Jan 21, 2025

SiliconFly said:
Oh god! This is so fake! You do realize that the 14900HX GB6 scores that guys is showing is completely fake! Also, it's powered by a 4090 which not just gently crushes the macbook, but makes it lick the boots in gaming! You just compared a gaming monster with an expensive piece of fashion accessory.

Nice copium🤣

mvprod123 · Jan 21, 2025

gdansk said:
Who are you parodying?

Could it be him?

coercitiv · Jan 22, 2025

SiliconFly said:
Oh god! This is so fake!

I have major issues with this reviewer, there's plenty of scores and behavior that make little sense on the Razer system (though maybe they're really that bad at setting up the OS and TB). With that caveat out of the way, you REALLY need to watch this segment of the video where he runs Visual Studio natively on the x86 Razer and emulated in Parallels on the ARM Mac. Here it is timestamped so you just need to click and brace for impact:

The Mac runs VS faster in a VM than the Razer does natively.

511 · Jan 22, 2025

coercitiv said:
I have major issues with this reviewer, there's plenty of scores and behavior that make little sense on the Razer system (though maybe they're really that bad at setting up the OS and TB). With that caveat out of the way, you REALLY need to watch this segment of the video where he runs Visual Studio natively on the x86 Razer and emulated in Parallels on the ARM Mac. Here it is timestamped so you just need to click and brace for impact:

The Mac runs VS faster in a VM than the Razer does natively.

It can come down to power profiles as well if so many results are bad

coercitiv · Jan 22, 2025

511 said:
It can come down to power profiles as well if so many results are bad

It does not change the fact that VS runs very well on the Mac, which is the most relevant part considering the current conversation in this thread.

poke01 · Jan 22, 2025

511 said:
It can come down to power profiles as well if so many results are bad

He’s running all the benchmarks unplugged on both laptops. Make sense why the Razer is so slow.

511 · Jan 22, 2025

coercitiv said:
It does not change the fact that VS runs very well on the Mac, which is the most relevant part considering the current conversation in this thread.

Like i said can be due to power profiles and the 14900K doesn't have the headroom to stretch it's leg being power limited

511 · Jan 22, 2025

poke01 said:
He’s running all the benchmarks unplugged on both laptops. Make sense why the Razer is so slow.

Ahh that makes sense even RTX 4090 will be slow than

511 · Jan 22, 2025

Early Intel Nova Lake CPU "Test Chip" Spotted, The Next-Gen Mainstream Consumer Platform

Intel's next-gen Nova Lake CPUs have been spotted within the shipping manifests at NBD.ltd and seem to hint at a smooth development cycle.

wccftech.com

Nova Lake on shipping manifest already

igor_kavinski · Jan 22, 2025

coercitiv said:
The Mac runs VS faster in a VM than the Razer does natively.

I noticed that in Excel also when I ran the overclock.net Excel benchmark sheet on the M1. The CPU is a monster when it comes to crunching through large amounts of data. But using normal stuff, like even browsing, I didn't feel much difference. It just felt ok. Nothing extraordinary. No feeling like things are happening at light speed.

Gideon · Jan 22, 2025

igor_kavinski said:
I noticed that in Excel also when I ran the overclock.net Excel benchmark sheet on the M1. The CPU is a monster when it comes to crunching through large amounts of data. But using normal stuff, like even browsing, I didn't feel much difference. It just felt ok. Nothing extraordinary. No feeling like things are happening at light speed.

Because actual browsing usually isn't all that much CPU limited. You have to take into account the networking speed, your local wifi setup, etc.

Even when doing everyday web-developing tasks (thus running servers straight from your machine bypassing net) there is very little difference between my zen 3 based 6850U and M1 Pro mac. Basically modern CPUs are good enough to not be the biggest bottleneck.

That said, once I throttle the CPU under chrome devtools "Performance" tab (either 4x or 6x slowdown), thus making the CPU the bottleneck, I do notice a difference between the two. A 6x slowed down mac is certainly faster, particularily on poorly optimised single-page apps running dev-mode. It's not that the Ryzen is unusable or anything (even at those super-slow settings), but it's most certainly slower.

Browsers and javascript interprers really do like lower clocked and wide CPU designs (or perhaps it's just the 16K pages).

511 · Jan 22, 2025

x86 is held by backward compatibility 🤣

SiliconFly · Jan 22, 2025

x86 is holding because of backward compatibility 🤣

perry mason · Jan 22, 2025

mvprod123 said:
Really?

For giggles, I ran Speedometer on Edge on Win 11 through Parallels and achieved a score of 35. This was with 80+gb RAM utilized by other apps at the same time (hundreds of browser tabs, productivity software, but spreadsheets, tools out the wazoo, a remote session, etc).

Now the native Safari score was in the mid-40’s, but that’s a faster browser so it’s not an apples to apples comparison. Perusing online, some desktop 14900k’s without special tuning can struggle to hit a score of 35. Not bad for virtualization!

Doug S · Jan 22, 2025

511 said:
x86 is held by backward compatibility 🤣

x86 only still exists because of backwards compatibility.

OneEng2 · Jan 22, 2025

poke01 said:
He’s running all the benchmarks unplugged on both laptops. Make sense why the Razer is so slow.

Well of course. All programmers compile on battery! 🤣

Schmide · Jan 22, 2025

coercitiv said:
I have major issues with this reviewer, there's plenty of scores and behavior that make little sense on the Razer system (though maybe they're really that bad at setting up the OS and TB). With that caveat out of the way, you REALLY need to watch this segment of the video where he runs Visual Studio natively on the x86 Razer and emulated in Parallels on the ARM Mac. Here it is timestamped so you just need to click and brace for impact:

The Mac runs VS faster in a VM than the Razer does natively.

Note: If you look at the two visual studios one has been used as shown by the Older option under the open recent and one is most likely a fresh install as that is missing. The mac may be faster but that dude's testing is flawed and anecdotal. .net projects have a lot of dependencies outside of visual studio and will cache templates as they are built.

DZero · Jan 22, 2025

Doug S said:
x86 only still exists because of backwards compatibility.

And for AMD currently. If AMD was dead, Intel would pull an Itanium on x86

511 · Jan 22, 2025

DZero said:
And for AMD currently. If AMD was dead, Intel would pull an Itanium on x86

Like Nvidia has CUDA they want a moat stay afloat

Doug S said:
x86 only still exists because of backwards compatibility.

That's not true if backward compatibility wasn't a reason they would have modified the ISA to fit their needs like Apple has done

Schmide · Jan 22, 2025

Doug S said:
x86 only still exists because of backwards compatibility.

That is hyperbole. It also exists because it will be compatible with future technology.

We are just barely getting graphics cards working with ARM let alone any other platform.

In the same vernacular, it exists because competition isn't there yet.

SiliconFly · Jan 23, 2025

Schmide said:
We are just barely getting graphics cards working with ARM let alone any other platform.

Oh no. You're gonna make a lot of Nvidia ARM CPU + GPU admirers very unhappy.

poke01 · Jan 23, 2025

SiliconFly said:
Oh no. You're gonna make a lot of Nvidia ARM CPU + GPU admirers very unhappy.

hasn’t even happened yet. WoA has zero support for real GPU IP from either NV or AMD. It won’t happen till Q4 2025

(Qualcomm’s current GPUs in PCs even deserve be to called GPUs)

Schmide · Jan 23, 2025

SiliconFly said:
Oh no. You're gonna make a lot of Nvidia ARM CPU + GPU admirers very unhappy.

I have tons of ARM and now that the Jeff Geerling bunch has kind of sorted it out, I will be setting up a GPU on ARM and joining the fray.

Doug S · Jan 23, 2025

511 said:
That's not true if backward compatibility wasn't a reason they would have modified the ISA to fit their needs like Apple has done

They never had that option, because if they had replaced x86 there is no guarantee people would have migrated to the replacement. Apple controls the whole stack, and could say "we're going to stop selling x86 Macs" which forced everyone to migrate. It helped a lot that Apple Silicon has been clearly superior to x86, and they had near bulletproof translation technology. But even if ARM Macs were slower and couldn't run x86 stuff that well customers would have had only two choices - migrate to ARM Macs, or drop the Mac platform entirely. Intel doesn't control the OS x86's status depends on, Microsoft does, so they couldn't do it the way Apple did.

But guess what, we don't have to speculate about any of this. Because Intel actually TRIED this, with Itanium. And we all know the result.

511 · Jan 24, 2025

Doug S said:
They never had that option, because if they had replaced x86 there is no guarantee people would have migrated to the replacement. Apple controls the whole stack, and could say "we're going to stop selling x86 Macs" which forced everyone to migrate. It helped a lot that Apple Silicon has been clearly superior to x86, and they had near bulletproof translation technology. But even if ARM Macs were slower and couldn't run x86 stuff that well customers would have had only two choices - migrate to ARM Macs, or drop the Mac platform entirely. Intel doesn't control the OS x86's status depends on, Microsoft does, so they couldn't do it the way Apple did.

But guess what, we don't have to speculate about any of this. Because Intel actually TRIED this, with Itanium. And we all know the result.

That one is true but Intels Reason for Itanium was to kick AMD out of thier money making moat

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