Discussion Leading Edge Foundry Node advances (TSMC, Samsung Foundry, Intel) - [2020 - 2025]

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DisEnchantment

Golden Member
Mar 3, 2017
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TSMC's N7 EUV is now in its second year of production and N5 is contributing to revenue for TSMC this quarter. N3 is scheduled for 2022 and I believe they have a good chance to reach that target.


N7 performance is more or less understood.


This year and next year TSMC is mainly increasing capacity to meet demands.

For Samsung the nodes are basically the same from 7LPP to 4 LPE, they just add incremental scaling boosters while the bulk of the tech is the same.

Samsung is already shipping 7LPP and will ship 6LPP in H2. Hopefully they fix any issues if at all.
They have two more intermediate nodes in between before going to 3GAE, most likely 5LPE will ship next year but for 4LPE it will probably be back to back with 3GAA since 3GAA is a parallel development with 7LPP enhancements.




Samsung's 3GAA will go for HVM in 2022 most likely, similar timeframe to TSMC's N3.
There are major differences in how the transistor will be fabricated due to the GAA but density for sure Samsung will be behind N3.
But there might be advantages for Samsung with regards to power and performance, so it may be better suited for some applications.
But for now we don't know how much of this is true and we can only rely on the marketing material.

This year there should be a lot more available wafers due to lack of demand from Smartphone vendors and increased capacity from TSMC and Samsung.
Lots of SoCs which dont need to be top end will be fabbed with N7 or 7LPP/6LPP instead of N5, so there will be lots of wafers around.

Most of the current 7nm designs are far from the advertized density from TSMC and Samsung. There is still potential for density increase compared to currently shipping products.
N5 is going to be the leading foundry node for the next couple of years.

For a lot of fabless companies out there, the processes and capacity available are quite good.

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FEEL FREE TO CREATE A NEW THREAD FOR 2025+ OUTLOOK, I WILL LINK IT HERE
 
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SiliconFly

Golden Member
Mar 10, 2023
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Dylan Patel of SemiAnalysis on the rumors of Nvidia and Qualcomm moving some of their production to Samsung from TSMC.
https://x.com/dylan522p/status/1875961528861827212?s=61&t=6s7eyGwxMGt7pKMzBnBjmw
https://x.com/dylan522p/status/1875961531499979074?s=61&t=6s7eyGwxMGt7pKMzBnBjmw

Makes sense that they wouldn’t move any of their most important designs over to Samsung if they(Samsung) can’t get their process nodes up to high yields. A lot of money is riding on these designs to work and work well it makes a lot of business sense to rely on a tried, tested and most important of all Trusted partner in TSMC.
Maybe. But I don't think any noteworthy products based on TSMC N2 is coming out this year end (from Nvidia, AMD, Apple, Intel or Qualcomm).
 
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Sep 5, 2022
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Maybe. But I don't think any noteworthy products based on N2 is coming out this year end (from Nvidia, AMD, Apple, Intel or Qualcomm).
Yeah it was always 2026 when products come out in high volume. It’s only tapeouts that are done in 2025. Whenever TSMC announces that a node for example N2 would be ready in 2025 they are communicating to their customers(Nvidia,Apple,Qualcomm et al.) that it is ready for tapeout and risk production. Not when we the consumer can expect products on shelves.
 

del42sa

Member
May 28, 2013
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https://overclock3d.net/news/misc/i...xt-gen-volume-production-to-start-in-h2-2025/

CES 2025 reveals Intel has issued an update on the progress of their 18A lithography node. Intel has reconfirmed that their next-generation AI PC products will use their next-generation lithography technology and that samples have already been sent to customers.


Intel’s interim co-CEO Michelle Johnston Holthaus has stated that volume production for its next-generation AI PC products will start in the second half of this year. Furthermore, it seems likely that some 18A products will be released this year
 

NostaSeronx

Diamond Member
Sep 18, 2011
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Fluid situation, assume rumors: Globalfoundries with STMicroelectronics has left Europe fab plans.

Both have joined an alliance with Hua Hong. STMicroelectronics is focused on HLMC/HHGrace Fabs 5 and 9. While GlobalFoundries will be focus on {Huahong Integrated Circuit (Chengdu) Co., Ltd}, formerly [Gexin (Chengdu) Integrated Circuit Manufacturing Co, Ltd]. With the recipes of 22FDX and 12FDX being shipped. As GlobalFoundries resumes relationships with China.

With this guy overlooking everything on Huahong's side: https://www.semiconchina.org/en/1839

There is only one mention of HLMC Fab 10, but it should be the FinFET fab. ((If asking, no info on Fab10 and GlobalFoundries' FinFET nodes))


Where HHG+GlobalFoundries allows GF to get CNLabs-related FDSOI: https://ieeexplore.ieee.org/document/10816627/
 
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RTX

Member
Nov 5, 2020
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Fluid situation, assume rumors: Globalfoundries with STMicroelectronics has left Europe fab plans.

Both have joined an alliance with Hua Hong. STMicroelectronics is focused on HLMC/HHGrace Fabs 5 and 9. While GlobalFoundries will be focus on {Huahong Integrated Circuit (Chengdu) Co., Ltd}, formerly [Gexin (Chengdu) Integrated Circuit Manufacturing Co, Ltd]. With the recipes of 22FDX and 12FDX being shipped. As GlobalFoundries resumes relationships with China.

With this guy overlooking everything on Huahong's side: https://www.semiconchina.org/en/1839

There is only one mention of HLMC Fab 10, but it should be the FinFET fab. ((If asking, no info on Fab10 and GlobalFoundries' FinFET nodes))
View attachment 115396

Where HHG+GlobalFoundries allows GF to get CNLabs-related FDSOI: https://ieeexplore.ieee.org/document/10816627/
830M funding




 
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Hitman928

Diamond Member
Apr 15, 2012
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Didn't we see this play out at Global Foundries in a past life?

IIRC, it stands for Fully Depleated, Silicon on Insulator ..... and it didn't fare well back in the day. Does anyone know why it is being resurrected and what has changed?

FD-SOI is still heavily used by some industries. Not nearly as much as FinFETs, but it still has a good amount of volume.
 

NostaSeronx

Diamond Member
Sep 18, 2011
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Does anyone know why it is being resurrected and what has changed?
It keeps most techniques viable from planar bulk. Body bias, dynamic circuits, etc.

RDC Semiconductor Co., Ltd. for bulk planar 28nm + 22nm versus FinFETs 16nm/14nm/12nm + 7nm/6nm

This carries over to FDSOI with it being better than bulk in some figures of merit.

Baselines (2023+ numbers):
22FDX = 1.55x
22FDX+ = 1.68x
12FDX = 1.90x

Trailing-adoption of FDSOI has basically returned to older design methodologies. It is expected FDSOI will retain this capability by its adopters for UHP RISC-V AP cores:

The expectation for FDSOI designs returning to the above. Is to push supply down to 0.25V~0.75V instead of using the 0.9V~1.4V range. Which is part of the Ultra-Efficient Computing program. As they now have fully verified Dennard Scaling. 22FDX fast, but not power hungry.

NXP's 28nm (2017+) = Does not use the above.
NXP's 22nm (2024+) = Does use the above.

Additionally, can swap the cores in this;

with SiFive's RVA23 P470 w/ semi-custom metho on 22FDX+. The performance loss is replaced by having faster clocks. The 18FDS Tizen chip should also be like this. Exynos W1000 w/o the A78 and A55 replaced with P470.
 
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RTX

Member
Nov 5, 2020
153
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It keeps most techniques viable from planar bulk. Body bias, dynamic circuits, etc.

RDC Semiconductor Co., Ltd. for bulk planar 28nm + 22nm versus FinFETs 16nm/14nm/12nm + 7nm/6nm
View attachment 115458
This carries over to FDSOI with it being better than bulk in some figures of merit.

Baselines (2023+ numbers):
22FDX = 1.55x
22FDX+ = 1.68x
12FDX = 1.90x

Trailing-adoption of FDSOI has basically returned to older design methodologies. It is expected FDSOI will retain this capability by its adopters for UHP RISC-V AP cores:
View attachment 115462
The expectation for FDSOI designs returning to the above. Is to push supply down to 0.25V~0.75V instead of using the 0.9V~1.4V range. Which is part of the Ultra-Efficient Computing program. As they now have fully verified Dennard Scaling. 22FDX fast, but not power hungry.

NXP's 28nm (2017+) = Does not use the above.
NXP's 22nm (2024+) = Does use the above.

Additionally, can swap the cores in this;
View attachment 115463
with SiFive's RVA23 P470 w/ semi-custom metho on 22FDX+. The performance loss is replaced by having faster clocks.
Can they add BDI to FDSOI planar? Will that further improve the performance?
 

NostaSeronx

Diamond Member
Sep 18, 2011
3,788
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Can they add BDI to FDSOI planar? Will that further improve the performance?
Which BDI? The one for CMOS Image Sensors, the one for 3D Sequential/Monolithic, the one for Bipolar, or the one for FinFETs/GAAFETs. As if it is the last one "full bottom dielectric isolation" then that is the buried oxide.
Also, FD-SOI on lower nm could be useful for low tier phones...
It can be used now. The only thing that stopped FDSOI adoption was the delay on 18FDS/12FDX. No customer wants to jump onto a single-node platform.

From the Shanghai FD-SOI forum October 23rd, 2024
~~18FDS~~
18FDS IP Buildup = January 2025
18FDS PDK Release = June 2025
18FDS Full volume = End of 2026
~~12FDX~~
12FDX PDK Release = 2026
12FDX Full volume = 2027

Where 18FDS original date was June 2019 and 12FDX was first-half 2019. No one so far has come out to say what really caused the delay.

I am not sure about 12FDX. Since, Globalfoundries is already doing Dresden+Malta doing FDX and 3DHI stuff. Implies based on the roadmap I got that 12FDX is imminent. So not sure if that is 12FDX specific to AutoPro being 2026/2027, 2028+ or every 12FDX solution. As the digital solutions group generally outruns the automotive group.
 

Hitman928

Diamond Member
Apr 15, 2012
6,521
11,784
136

View attachment 116133
View attachment 116134
What N2 Apple products are delayed??

Surely the iPhone 18 will be on N2 and it should release around the usual time frame.

This person is just a sun-pumping Intel investor and is parroting whatever positives are read online to try and build up support for the investment and cast FUD on the competition. I would not take this post seriously.




 

Geddagod

Golden Member
Dec 28, 2021
1,309
1,394
106

View attachment 116133
View attachment 116134
What N2 Apple products are delayed??

Surely the iPhone 18 will be on N2 and it should release around the usual time frame.
1) Intel can use any node for any product, which makes it super funny that Intel is using external for a NVL compute tile, that all but confirms that Intel doesn't believe the node they will have in late 2026 (likely 18A-P) will be the best in the market. Also, this is really only an advantage if Intel's nodes are better than TSMC's.. which it seems like they are not.
2)Just because you have BSPD doesn't mean you are automatically more efficient than a node without it.
3)According to what???
4)I would imagine N2 does have better SRAM density.
5)Pretty much the only thing I agree with him here. Even then, maybe not "well", but on track for PTL to launch? Sure... wait I didn't see the made up BS about N2. Yeah nvm.
 

511

Golden Member
Jul 12, 2024
1,495
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It's too much to swallow not in the same league as Ayymd though.

If i have to guess this is what i think feel free to correct me

Logic Density : N2 > 18A=N3P
HD SRAM : N2 > 18A=N3P
Performance : N2 >= 18A
Power : N2 > 18A
PPA : N2 > 18A > N3P
 

SiliconFly

Golden Member
Mar 10, 2023
1,925
1,277
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There is no issues with N2 yields but they are not as high as 18A from the presentation and Public data that was last shared for SRAM and Intel shared D0 in August
18A is a 2025 node and shouldn't be compared to N2, considering N2 is a disaster this year. N2 doesn't have any significant products from noteworthy leading-edge high-volume customers like Apple, QC, etc this year.

Since Apple is set to use N2 next year, N2 compete with 18A-P next year. Both N2 & 18A-P have similar densities with 18A-P having higher performance than N2. 18A-P is clearly a superior node compared to N2.
 
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