Discussion Intel Meteor, Arrow, Lunar & Panther Lakes Discussion Threads

Tigerick · Aug 22, 2022

As Hot Chips 34 starting this week, Intel will unveil technical information of upcoming Meteor Lake (MTL) and Arrow Lake (ARL), new generation platform after Raptor Lake. Both MTL and ARL represent new direction which Intel will move to multiple chiplets and combine as one SoC platform.

MTL also represents new compute tile that based on Intel 4 process which is based on EUV lithography, a first from Intel. Intel expects to ship MTL mobile SoC in 2023.

ARL will come after MTL so Intel should be shipping it in 2024, that is what Intel roadmap is telling us. ARL compute tile will be manufactured by Intel 20A process, a first from Intel to use GAA transistors called RibbonFET.

Comparison of upcoming Intel's U-series CPU: Core Ultra 100U, Lunar Lake and Panther Lake

Model	Code-Name	Date	TDP	Node	Tiles	Main Tile	CPU	LP E-Core	LLC	GPU	Xe-cores
Core Ultra 100U	Meteor Lake	Q4 2023	15 - 57 W	Intel 4 + N5 + N6	4	tCPU	2P + 8E	2	12 MB	Intel Graphics	4
?	Lunar Lake	Q4 2024	17 - 30 W	N3B + N6	2	CPU + GPU & IMC	4P + 4E	0	12 MB	Arc	8
?	Panther Lake	Q1 2026 ?	?	Intel 18A + N3E	3	CPU + MC	4P + 8E	4	?	Arc	12

Comparison of die size of Each Tile of Meteor Lake, Arrow Lake, Lunar Lake and Panther Lake

	Meteor Lake	Arrow Lake (N3B)	Lunar Lake	Panther Lake
Platform	Mobile H/U Only	Desktop & Mobile H&HX	Mobile U Only	Mobile H
Process Node	Intel 4	TSMC N3B	TSMC N3B	Intel 18A
Date	Q4 2023	Desktop-Q4-2024 H&HX-Q1-2025	Q4 2024	Q1 2026 ?
Full Die	6P + 8P	8P + 16E	4P + 4E	4P + 8E
LLC	24 MB	36 MB ?	12 MB	?
tCPU	66.48
tGPU	44.45
SoC	96.77
IOE	44.45
Total	252.15

Intel Core Ultra 100 - Meteor Lake

As mentioned by Tomshardware, TSMC will manufacture the I/O, SoC, and GPU tiles. That means Intel will manufacture only the CPU and Foveros tiles. (Notably, Intel calls the I/O tile an 'I/O Expander,' hence the IOE moniker.)

igor_kavinski · Jan 26, 2025

511 said:
The only guy capable to do turn around of that scale is dead unfortunately

No one is indispensable. In every day and age, there is always a worthy successor. Whether the people in charge really want that person to lead the effort is the real question. Here's the thing: a truly worthy person will tell the Intel board things they DO NOT want to hear. Hence, they will keep appointing jackasses. But maybe this time they should go with an external jackass. Anyone other than another Intel jackass.

511 · Jan 26, 2025

igor_kavinski said:
Yes, all the fabs other than TSMC that are doing just fine and dandy are committing suicide every single day

Samsung is in a worse condition than Intel in terms of nodes and we don't have leading edge logic maker besides those 3 for Samsung they have the Korean government support and for TSMC they have Taiwan's government support and US government doesn't have much faith in Intel I guess

SiliconFly · Jan 26, 2025

igor_kavinski said:
She's actually more of a people person which helps when you are running a huge company filled with, you know, people

Had Pat been a good Christian (not arrogant), he would have done well. He was too arrogant in his statements and he was too arrogant to think that God was on his side and that he could do no wrong. He forgot the simplest of things. God's Universe is running on Auto based on His laws and there is simply NO substitute for hard work, humility, thinking HARD, being true to yourself, actually caring about the people working for you and demanding the absolute best from your teams because no one is going to accept any excuses when those teams fail you and it's your head on the platter.

Oh pls. He's way less arrogant than Jensen.

igor_kavinski said:
No one is indispensable. In every day and age, there is always a worthy successor. Whether the people in charge really want that person to lead the effort is the real question. Here's the thing: a truly worthy person will tell the Intel board things they DO NOT want to hear. Hence, they will keep appointing jackasses. But maybe this time they should go with an external jackass. Anyone other than another Intel jackass.

Why are you spewing so much venom against Intel in Intel thread?

For example, there's so much hatred towards AMD now in X/Twitter for its botched/delayed 9070 launch. The names people call can sometime be mind numbing. So, by your definition, Lisa is a bigger jackass. Much worse than Pat, considering she goofed up even after AMD being in such a better place than Intel.

Pat has done wonderful work during his time at Intel. The upcoming products/services developed under his leadership are far better than what was done by the previous nitwits. So, hold your horses.

Thunder 57 · Jan 26, 2025

Maybe we should start a CEO thread. Pat, Lisa, Jensen, fight! Just sayin'

igor_kavinski · Jan 26, 2025

SiliconFly said:
So, by your definition, Lisa is a bigger jackass.

Nah. She's enjoying the show. She will just sack the graphics guy if his plan fails because this is not her plan. She goes after the big stuff. Like getting people from diverse backgrounds to innovate together. She has her plate full at the moment and frankly, even I wouldn't want to be doing anything consumer Radeon related unless I had unlimited budget and complete immunity from sacking over moronic mistakes. The 9070-do-not-launch "apparent" fiasco is just a last ditch effort to make the most of a bad situation (not having any halo product when the market is lusting after limited RTX 5000 series supplies).

SiliconFly said:
Why are you spewing so much venom against Intel in Intel thread?

Didn't say anything that was untrue. Pat's wonderful work? Yeah, the stock price has his name written ALL over it.

Thunder 57 · Jan 26, 2025

igor_kavinski said:
Didn't say anything that was untrue. Pat's wonderful work? Yeah, the stock price has his name written ALL over it.

That may be, but it's not his fault investors only care about short term gains these days.

SiliconFly · Jan 26, 2025

igor_kavinski said:
Didn't say anything that was untrue. Pat's wonderful work? Yeah, the stock price has his name written ALL over it.

It's a free world. And you can believe whatever ridiculous stories you want. But believes don't mean they're facts.

Many here already know all the excellent work Pat has done with all the mess he inherited. He's literally rebooted Intel. What follows now is the fruits of his labor. And time will tell who's better. Lisa or Pat.

SiliconFly · Jan 26, 2025

Thunder 57 said:
That may be, but it's not his fault investors only care about short term gains these days.

True. Sadly, when a company goes thru a reboot, the profits/debts all take a nasty turn. But it pays off better in the future. They've invested heavily in IFS & they're gonna see the first benefits this year end. A ton of money has already been invested, they don't have to pay a truck load of money to TSMC this year. And also, their IFS profit margin comes back directly to them. Double benefit. Panther Lake & Diamond Rapids should be very high margin compared to ARL & LNL. Credit definitely goes to Pat.

Thunder 57 · Jan 26, 2025

SiliconFly said:
True. Sadly, when a company goes thru a reboot, the profits/debts all take a nasty turn. But it pays off better in the future. They've invested heavily in IFS & they're gonna see the first benefits this year end. A ton of money has already been invested, they don't have to pay a truck load of money to TSMC this year. And also, their IFS profit margin comes back directly to them. Double benefit. Panther Lake & Diamond Rapids should be very high margin compared to ARL & LNL. Credit definitely goes to Pat.

I'm still in "I'll believe it when I see it" mode but there's a chance for a turnaround to be sure.

OneEng2 · Jan 26, 2025

cannedlake240 said:
In any M4, Oryon 2 review it's evident Lunar is behind in efficiency and even peak 1T performance. This shouldn't be the case if Intel is to continue competing

Link?

1T performance is the primary point in mobile. In laptop, desktop, and most certainly in workstation and server, it is MT performance and PPA.

If you don't have to design much in the way of MT capabilities, the entire transistor budget can be used to enhance 1T performance. I think it is crazy to talk about ARM vs LLK in terms of only 1T.

coercitiv said:
Reading this felt like a Picard head in hands moment. Intel is using TSMC as we speak. Where's the success?! Stop looking outside for reasons this company is failing. The reasons are inside. Intel inside.

Well, when AMD moved to TSMC, they were one and a half feet in the grave (maybe more). While I agree that TSMC's process success has significantly lead to AMD's business success, it wasn't JUST AMD moving to TSMC for FAB. It was a very good Ryzen core design, spending more time on a platform (not wasting time and money constantly changing platform design), thinking strategically and more broadly (like big/medium cores that share the same uArch), and moving quickly into chiplet designs for a host of really good reasons .... and perfecting designs that work well with this kind of modular uArch.

Intel is doing lots of these things NOW ..... but AMD has been doing it longer and is currently better at it (not saying things will stay this way forever though).

Lets talk about AMD moving to TSMC a little more. Not only did this relieve AMD (which was 1/50th of Intel's size at the time) from expending huge sums of money and engineering resources trying to do BOTH fab and chip design, it let TSMC utilize economy of scale across MANY customer volumes to build a world leading FAB with the best on-boarding process for any new customer that should want to use it.

I personally think Intel trying to return to the glory days of having process supremacy (by 1 to 2 full process nodes) over all others at all times, is at an end. This model no longer makes any more business sense than a brick and mortar book store. Intel will have to spin off the foundry, and re-invent themselves with designs based on making a PROFITABLE product. No more "twice the transistor budget" over everyone else. No more "Use of monopoly power" to tilt the board their direction. No more "Soak the competition through low ball prices" using forever cash reserves.

Intel has to innovate and become much more efficient and competitive.

Doug S · Jan 26, 2025

cannedlake240 said:
In any M4, Oryon 2 review it's evident Lunar is behind in efficiency and even peak 1T performance. This shouldn't be the case if Intel is to continue competing

AMD is also behind M4, but that doesn't matter any more than Intel being behind them. AMD is Intel's main competition, not Qualcomm and definitely not Apple.

cannedlake240 · Jan 26, 2025

OneEng2 said:
In laptop, desktop, and most certainly in workstation and server, it is MT performance and PPA.

Huh? M4 consistently outperforms LNL in MT tasks when tdp constrained. Is there anything that makes Apple or x86 chips for that matter, specially optimized for either ST or MT? They're all just general purpose CPUs after all, none of them are especially large in Si area. Arm has been making progress in ST perf, but they arent a mobile only uarch designer

Doug S said:
AMD is Intel's main competition, not Qualcomm and definitely not Apple.

Idk, Arm client designs might finally start gaining traction starting with Oryon v2 and the rumored NV soc. X elite definitely could have had a smoother release but those issues are all solvable given enough time and finances. Also AMD unlike Intel, was probably really broke until after Zen 3 launch. Client isn't their largest revenue source either

cannedlake240 · Jan 26, 2025

OneEng2 said:
Not only did this relieve AMD (which was 1/50th of Intel's size at the time) from expending huge sums of money and engineering resources trying to do BOTH fab and chip design, it let TSMC utilize economy of scale across MANY customer volumes to build a world leading FAB with the best on-boarding process for any new customer that should want to use it.

They still could've made it work had they not made the choices that led to the 10nm debacle, and if they managed to capture some of the mobile and GPU/AI businesses. I doubt it was the financial constraints that led to any of those. An argument could made about the company becoming way too big, hence complex to manage with both leading edge manufacturing and design, which in turn causes all sorts of internal issues.
Overall though Pat probably agrees with this point, which is what kick started the whole foundry business saga in the first place

Thunder 57 · Jan 26, 2025

igor_kavinski said:
No one is indispensable. In every day and age, there is always a worthy successor. Whether the people in charge really want that person to lead the effort is the real question. Here's the thing: a truly worthy person will tell the Intel board things they DO NOT want to hear. Hence, they will keep appointing jackasses. But maybe this time they should go with an external jackass. Anyone other than another Intel jackass.

I think the question is, could they get someone external that's worth a crap? I can't imagine there's a bunch of CEO quality people out there who have Intel on their short list.

DrMrLordX · Jan 26, 2025

Thunder 57 said:
I think the question is, could they get someone external that's worth a crap? I can't imagine there's a bunch of CEO quality people out there who have Intel on their short list.

What exactly is a "CEO quality" person? What does Intel need from a CEO?

Thunder 57 · Jan 26, 2025

DrMrLordX said:
What exactly is a "CEO quality" person? What does Intel need from a CEO?

Damned if I know. That's for the board to figure out.

511 · Jan 27, 2025

Thunder 57 said:
Damned if I know. That's for the board to figure out.

If Board have that figured out they wouldn't have hired swan or fired pat midway his strategy or hired Kranzich.
Board lacks vision and even common sense
I know for sure the design team was spoiled allowing them infinite tape ins something which should never have happened there is a cultural rot at the board as well

Thunder 57 · Jan 27, 2025

511 said:
If Board have that figured out they wouldn't have hired swan or fired pat midway his strategy or hired Kranzich.
Board lacks vision and even common sense
I know for sure the design team was spoiled allowing them infinite tape ins something which should never have happened there is a cultural rot at the board as well

Swan was always going to be a "transition" CEO. Kranzich, can't say anything nice there. The board has been scrutinized lately, and IMHO rightfully so. Now they have this two headed CEO thing going on which I think is a joke. "Iceberg, right ahead!" "Hard to port, reverse full!" "No! Hard to port, increase to full!". Engine room: "???"

Obviously that's being a bit dramatic about it, but you get the idea.

OT but regarding the Titanic reference there where some different ideas as to what should've been done.

What they did was turn and reverse which seems instinctual. There are some that say they should've kept the engines forward as it would speed up the turn. Then of course they could've rammed it and despite being disabled likely would've stayed afloat. I'll end my nerd stuff here and see myself out.

511 · Jan 27, 2025

Btw anyone with the leaked 2025-2028 Intel Roadmap ?

Doug S · Jan 27, 2025

cannedlake240 said:
Idk, Arm client designs might finally start gaining traction starting with Oryon v2 and the rumored NV soc. X elite definitely could have had a smoother release but those issues are all solvable given enough time and finances. Also AMD unlike Intel, was probably really broke until after Zen 3 launch. Client isn't their largest revenue source either

"Might"...

A lot of people here seemed to take it as a given based on Qualcomm's performance vs Intel/AMD laptop offerings that it would be a big hit. It was not. Qualcomm has taken less than 1% of the Windows PC market, and retailers have reported a high degree of product returns due to software incompatibilities. Qualcomm disputes that, but who are you going to believe, the company with a vested interest in covering it up who are two degrees removed from the consumer purchase process, or the retailers who actually handle the returns?

If Oryon v2 is faster, or Nvidia comes out with one that has a much better GPU, how does that address the reason they were returned? Would even 50% more performance than the x86 competition cause a lot of people to suddenly want to buy them, if they still have compatibility issues?

Even being first out the gate with a Windows "AI PC" before Intel/AMD released theirs did nothing for them, and that PR advantage is now gone. The dynamics of the Windows market are not going to be impacted by more or better ARM PC options. The reasons consumers are staying away are not going to change. In fact, I would argue the situation is WORSE now because developers have seen how little of an impact ARM is having on the Windows market. Some developers may have previously made tentative plans for an ARM port with their next major version, others may have taken a wait and see attitude and planned to base their decision on ARM PC sales figures.

Now that they've seen the terrible sales and return rates, it is likely lot of them have scrapped any plans for an ARM port as not being worth it given the tiny potential market. That means the long term prospects for an improvement in the reasons consumers returned them are looking pretty dim.

igor_kavinski · Jan 27, 2025

Thunder 57 said:
I can't imagine there's a bunch of CEO quality people out there who have Intel on their short list.

If they want someone like Pat to dance around the stage, I'm available. I estimate about $10 million should be enough for me to get the latest CPUs from the big players for at least a decade. I think I would be able to survive long enough to make the $10 million salary.

511 · Jan 27, 2025

igor_kavinski said:
If they want someone like Pat to dance around the stage, I'm available. I estimate about $10 million should be enough for me to get the latest CPUs from the big players for at least a decade. I think I would be able to survive long enough to make the $10 million salary.

u won't be able to fix the problem permanently cause the problem is the board now not the CEO

SiliconFly · Jan 27, 2025

Doug S said:
Now that they've seen the terrible sales and return rates, it is likely lot of them have scrapped any plans for an ARM port as not being worth it given the tiny potential market. That means the long term prospects for an improvement in the reasons consumers returned them are looking pretty dim.

True. Same thing happened with Microsoft Windows Mobile OS. Exactly like Microsoft Windows-On-ARM.

They had a fantastic mobile OS which had better mind-share and positivity surrounding it (in the beginning). They had many phone models with fantastic hardware from different vendors (not just Nokia). i even bought one out of curiosity just to try it out. And it was pretty much perfect. Loved it. Except for Apps support which was terrible. And the rest of the story is just public knowledge. They couldn't onboard enough developers on time and it went bust.

WoA is walking the exact same path. Consumers rejected it. Developers rejected it. In spite of all the tech wizardry, emulation, etc, it just failed miserably and didn't even capture 1% of the market (and they were projecting 50% or something I think ).

WoA is a disaster. QC & MS are just beating a dead horse in the hopes no one would notice they've wasted billions on development.

igor_kavinski · Jan 27, 2025

511 said:
u won't be able to fix the problem permanently cause the problem is the board now not the CEO

Who says I'm gonna go in with the intent to fix anything?

Look, here's what I'm gonna do:

Have a throne room built.

Install at least 100 24-inch LCDs. Have feeds running on them for everything I deem important to Intel's operations. Press a button, advise someone or shout at someone or flirt with the pretty receptionist (hey, gotta know what she's up to).

Hire Peter Dinklage full time to terrorize the CPU teams (Have this done by tomorrow. You don't want me showing up here tomorrow. Trust me, everyone who knows that is up there. Yeah. UP there. *points towards the sky*).

Have them create an ARM version of Clear Linux that runs x86-64 executables in the fastest emulated way possible.

I've shared too much already. Intel can have the rest of my plans once they sign an unconditional $10 million contract with me (they can fire me whenever they want. I still walk away with $10 million).

MoistOintment · Jan 27, 2025

SiliconFly said:
True. Same thing happened with Microsoft Windows Mobile OS. Exactly like Microsoft Windows-On-ARM.

They had a fantastic mobile OS which had better mind-share and positivity surrounding it (in the beginning). They had many phone models with fantastic hardware from different vendors (not just Nokia). i even bought one out of curiosity just to try it out. And it was pretty much perfect. Loved it. Except for Apps support which was terrible. And the rest of the story is just public knowledge. They couldn't onboard enough developers on time and it went bust.

WoA is walking the exact same path. Consumers rejected it. Developers rejected it. In spite of all the tech wizardry, emulation, etc, it just failed miserably and didn't even capture 1% of the market (and they were projecting 50% or something I think ).

WoA is a disaster. QC & MS are just beating a dead horse in the hopes no one would notice they've wasted billions on development.

The 1% figure is 1% of all Windows laptops sold in Q3 2024 were SnapDragon models.

The 50% figure is Qualcomm's goal of new PC's shipping with ARM by EOY 2029.

I highly doubt we'll see as high as 50% in 5 years - that's just overly ambitious. But the 1% figure is the first full quarter of SDE being on market.

Consumers aren't necessarily rejecting WoA because they don't know what ARM even is. They're, in large part, rejecting Qualcomm for the same reason that they're rejecting, for the most part, AMD in laptops: For the majority of average users, non-Intel is "off brand". Everyone knows Intel. Large swaths of the US population still don't recognize AMD.

But Nvidia is near a household brand at this point. And they will likely see even greater success than Qualcomm in this regard.

Discussion Intel Meteor, Arrow, Lunar & Panther Lakes Discussion Threads

Senior member

Attachments

Lifer

Golden Member

Golden Member

Diamond Member

Lifer

Diamond Member

Golden Member

Golden Member

Diamond Member

Senior member

Diamond Member

Senior member

Senior member

Diamond Member

Lifer

Diamond Member

Golden Member

Diamond Member

Golden Member

Diamond Member

Lifer

Golden Member

Golden Member

Lifer

Member