Discussion Intel Meteor, Arrow, Lunar & Panther Lakes Discussion Threads

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Tigerick

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Apr 1, 2022
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As Hot Chips 34 starting this week, Intel will unveil technical information of upcoming Meteor Lake (MTL) and Arrow Lake (ARL), new generation platform after Raptor Lake. Both MTL and ARL represent new direction which Intel will move to multiple chiplets and combine as one SoC platform.

MTL also represents new compute tile that based on Intel 4 process which is based on EUV lithography, a first from Intel. Intel expects to ship MTL mobile SoC in 2023.

ARL will come after MTL so Intel should be shipping it in 2024, that is what Intel roadmap is telling us. ARL compute tile will be manufactured by Intel 20A process, a first from Intel to use GAA transistors called RibbonFET.



Comparison of upcoming Intel's U-series CPU: Core Ultra 100U, Lunar Lake and Panther Lake

ModelCode-NameDateTDPNodeTilesMain TileCPULP E-CoreLLCGPUXe-cores
Core Ultra 100UMeteor LakeQ4 202315 - 57 WIntel 4 + N5 + N64tCPU2P + 8E212 MBIntel Graphics4
?Lunar LakeQ4 202417 - 30 WN3B + N62CPU + GPU & IMC4P + 4E012 MBArc8
?Panther LakeQ1 2026 ??Intel 18A + N3E3CPU + MC4P + 8E4?Arc12



Comparison of die size of Each Tile of Meteor Lake, Arrow Lake, Lunar Lake and Panther Lake

Meteor LakeArrow Lake (N3B)Lunar LakePanther Lake
PlatformMobile H/U OnlyDesktop & Mobile H&HXMobile U OnlyMobile H
Process NodeIntel 4TSMC N3BTSMC N3BIntel 18A
DateQ4 2023Desktop-Q4-2024
H&HX-Q1-2025		Q4 2024Q1 2026 ?
Full Die6P + 8P8P + 16E4P + 4E4P + 8E
LLC24 MB36 MB ?12 MB?
tCPU66.48
tGPU44.45
SoC96.77
IOE44.45
Total252.15



Intel Core Ultra 100 - Meteor Lake



As mentioned by Tomshardware, TSMC will manufacture the I/O, SoC, and GPU tiles. That means Intel will manufacture only the CPU and Foveros tiles. (Notably, Intel calls the I/O tile an 'I/O Expander,' hence the IOE moniker.)



 

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Doug S

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MoistOintment said:
But Nvidia is near a household brand at this point.
Click to expand...

I don't buy that. Most people don't get a dGPU, and those who do are roughly split between Nvidia and AMD.

Nvidia's name recognition is because of multi billion dollar AI clusters and its huge stock market gains over the past few years. That's not going to make people shopping for a PC more likely to buy one that has "Nvidia inside", unless they have bought into the "AI PC" hype machine and that's the only reason they are looking to upgrade.
 
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igor_kavinski

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Doug S said:
I don't buy that. Most people don't get a dGPU, and those who do are roughly split between Nvidia and AMD.
Click to expand...
Nvidia GPUs are everywhere in laptops. Very few (maybe less than 20 models?) laptops with decent AMD dGPUs. Workstation laptops have almost no AMD options. If it's an AMD laptop or pre-built desktop, chances are great that it's advertised as a budget option.

Nvidia was pretty big even before AI. But since 2020, they as a company have turned into real jerks thanks to generative AI. At this point, they have turned into another Apple-esque company whose products are valued far higher than they should be because all the other competitors can't seem to shake off their incompetent and inept streak.

Intel's great in software. AMD does pretty decent hardware. Maybe the only option to challenge Nvidia is for Intel and AMD to merge with Lisa Su as the CEO. Maybe then we will get the best CPU and best GPU possible, accompanied by software that isn't terrible.
 
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MoistOintment

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Doug S said:
I don't buy that. Most people don't get a dGPU, and those who do are roughly split between Nvidia and AMD.

Nvidia's name recognition is because of multi billion dollar AI clusters and its huge stock market gains over the past few years. That's not going to make people shopping for a PC more likely to buy one that has "Nvidia inside", unless they have bought into the "AI PC" hype machine and that's the only reason they are looking to upgrade.
Click to expand...
Even people who don't know what a dGPU is have heard of the most valuable company in the world. Anybody who even remotely follows financial markets is well aware of Nvidia. And those that are aware of dGPUs at all trend heavily towards Nvidia nearly 9 to 1. Consider just 7600X vs 4060 market share.

For people who don't strongly follow PC hardware, Intel and Nvidia still hold high brand cache, and Nvidia's has only grown in the last year or two.
 
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511

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Jul 12, 2024
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igor_kavinski said:
Who says I'm gonna go in with the intent to fix anything?

Look, here's what I'm gonna do:

Have a throne room built.

Install at least 100 24-inch LCDs. Have feeds running on them for everything I deem important to Intel's operations. Press a button, advise someone or shout at someone or flirt with the pretty receptionist (hey, gotta know what she's up to).

Hire Peter Dinklage full time to terrorize the CPU teams (Have this done by tomorrow. You don't want me showing up here tomorrow. Trust me, everyone who knows that is up there. Yeah. UP there. *points towards the sky*).

Have them create an ARM version of Clear Linux that runs x86-64 executables in the fastest emulated way possible.

I've shared too much already. Intel can have the rest of my plans once they sign an unconditional $10 million contract with me (they can fire me whenever they want. I still walk away with $10 million).
Click to expand...
You will be the fired the next day cause the board is not that big of idiot (hopefully)
 
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OneEng2

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Sep 19, 2022
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del42sa said:
https://www.tomshardware.com/pc-com...ashes-prices-of-xeon-6-cpus-by-up-to-usd5-340

Intel quietly slashes prices of Xeon 6 CPUs by up to $5,340, They are still more expensive than AMD's competing EPYC, though ...
Click to expand...
And are still getting beaten pretty badly (by about 40%) in DC applications as well. Hard to justify paying more for less for Intel.

AMD really put the screws to Intel in DC over the past 5 years and it has hurt Intel financially. Pretty soon, AMD will be able to use the high profits from DC to finance higher pressure price points against Intel in their laptop and desktop segments ..... in addition to having lower cost BOM on their chips.

The fight isn't just about performance anymore for Intel. It is about profit.

I do believe that a fantastic CWF release could start turning the tides again by 2026 H2, but we will have to wait and see how well the modified "mont" cores do in DC workloads against Turin D.
 
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511

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OneEng2 said:
And are still getting beaten pretty badly (by about 40%) in DC applications as well. Hard to justify paying more for less for Intel.
Click to expand...
Where is the 40% lol it was always 20% from Phoronix reviewa
OneEng2 said:
AMD really put the screws to Intel in DC over the past 5 years and it has hurt Intel financially. Pretty soon, AMD will be able to use the high profits from DC to finance higher pressure price points against Intel in their laptop and desktop segments ..... in addition to having lower cost BOM on their chips.

The fight isn't just about performance anymore for Intel. It is about profit.

I do believe that a fantastic CWF release could start turning the tides again by 2026 H2, but we will have to wait and see how well the modified "mont" cores do in DC workloads against Turin D.
Click to expand...
Yes I agree here there are tariffs and if those occurs Intel will win lol in price by huge margin
I hope they don't those tarrifs are dumb
 
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DKR

Junior Member
Nov 19, 2024
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OneEng2 said:
And are still getting beaten pretty badly (by about 40%) in DC applications as well. Hard to justify paying more for less for Intel.

AMD really put the screws to Intel in DC over the past 5 years and it has hurt Intel financially. Pretty soon, AMD will be able to use the high profits from DC to finance higher pressure price points against Intel in their laptop and desktop segments ..... in addition to having lower cost BOM on their chips.

The fight isn't just about performance anymore for Intel. It is about profit.

I do believe that a fantastic CWF release could start turning the tides again by 2026 H2, but we will have to wait and see how well the modified "mont" cores do in DC workloads against Turin D.
Click to expand...
It is not 40% (that is due to GNR not scaling well in 2P config), GNR is -18% perf/watt vs Turin on Geo Mean in Phoronix reivew on 1P case. There were also issues with GNR that was being worked out by Intel per Michael during his review of Turin.
Another thing to note is Phoronix did not use any of the in-built accelerators of GNR. That could help further narrow the gap for GNR with Turin.
https://www.reddit.com/r/Amd/comments/1fq2vry/comment/lp31ya0

AMD's free cash flow generation is not so great even now, and they have to make investments to compete with Nvidia in AI GPUs now. There is no way they can put pressure on Intel right now (imho).
 
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Doug S

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Feb 8, 2020
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igor_kavinski said:
Nvidia GPUs are everywhere in laptops. Very few (maybe less than 20 models?) laptops with decent AMD dGPUs. Workstation laptops have almost no AMD options. If it's an AMD laptop or pre-built desktop, chances are great that it's advertised as a budget option.
Click to expand...

What percentage of people who buy laptops with an Nvidia GPU inside could answer the question "who made the GPU in your laptop?" or even "what is a GPU?" And who is buying "workstation laptops"? Very few consumers do - their company buys it for them and they use what they're given. I agree that AMD still suffers the stigma of being "lesser" than Intel when it comes to PCs in the eyes of consumers. "Intel Inside" is still paying dividends - and that hurts not only AMD but also Qualcomm, and yes, Nvidia should they start appearing in ARM PCs.

I think you greatly overestimate the ability for average consumers to give a sh-- about the kind of stuff we who post on Anandtech forums do. The reason Intel had to spend countless millions on the "Intel Inside" campaign and made OEMs put stickers a few billion PCs in the past quarter century is because average consumers don't give a sh-- about the brands inside the mystery box they buy. Without Intel's branding campaign, if you asked them what kind of a CPU their PC has they'd say "it's a Dell, I think".
 
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Doug S

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MoistOintment said:
Even people who don't know what a dGPU is have heard of the most valuable company in the world. Anybody who even remotely follows financial markets is well aware of Nvidia. And those that are aware of dGPUs at all trend heavily towards Nvidia nearly 9 to 1. Consider just 7600X vs 4060 market share.

For people who don't strongly follow PC hardware, Intel and Nvidia still hold high brand cache, and Nvidia's has only grown in the last year or two.
Click to expand...

Of course they've heard of Nvidia. That doesn't translate into "oooh I'm going to buy this PC that says it has an Nvidia ARM CPU in it because Nvidia has a $3 trillion market cap". If people thought that way Apple's PC market share would have made huge gains alongside their market cap growth over the past 20 years. If people thought that way then Berkshire Hathaway could successfully market PCs based on their status as one of the 10 largest market cap companies in the world.

People who "don't strongly follow PC hardware" aren't going to be a that much more likely to buy an Nvidia ARM PC than they were a Qualcomm ARM PC, given that they've never seen a "Nvidia CPU" before. And if they do, the reasons people returned those Qualcomm PCs are going to end up seeing those Nvidia PCs returned. Which could end up denting Nvidia's "high brand cachet".
 
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igor_kavinski

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Jul 27, 2020
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Doug S said:
I think you greatly overestimate the ability for average consumers to give a sh-- about the kind of stuff we who post on Anandtech forums do.
Click to expand...
You seem to be out of touch with all the young kids watching Linus Tech Tips and similar Youtube channels. Most of these teenagers and young adults become extremely opinionated about their choice of hardware and develop a false sense of superiority for preferring a certain brand. Nvidia is ONE of the most popular of those brands. Average consumers these days don't buy PCs unless it's a dad buying one for his kids with the hope that they will learn computing and cool tricks. And usually those kids will be the ones telling their dads, we want Nvidia GPU please!

When I got my first PC, it was a Digitec (some small PC assembler) 386DX-40 with 4MB RAM and a decent HDD size for that era. My best friend at the time, his dad was a general manager so he could afford to buy better stuff. What did he get his son? IBM 386SX-33 with 2MB RAM and a smaller HDD. And the idiot friend thought his PC was superior in every way to mine. I don't remember if I had a argument with him about the discrepancy of our respective PC specs and the fact that IBM had charged them through the nose just for that stupid IBM sticker and maybe the better keyboard but I clearly remember one thing: feeling genuinely really sad for him that he couldn't enjoy a PC experience as good as mine simply coz his dad wanted to get his kid the best PC in the world: the original IBM PC.
 
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Doug S

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Feb 8, 2020
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igor_kavinski said:
You seem to be out of touch with all the young kids watching Linus Tech Tips and similar Youtube channels. Most of these teenagers and young adults become extremely opinionated about their choice of hardware and develop a false sense of superiority for preferring a certain brand. Nvidia is ONE of the most popular of those brands. Average consumers these days don't buy PCs unless it's a dad buying one for his kids with the hope that they will learn computing and cool tricks. And usually those kids will be the ones telling their dads, we want Nvidia GPU please!
Click to expand...

I think you're the one who is out of touch if you think watching Linus Tech Tips is a mainstream behavior for "young kids" or that "average consumers ... don't buy PCs". You think US consumers are dumping their PCs and relying solely on a smartphone for internet? Going smartphone only is a third world thing, not a first world thing.

The replacement cycle has got longer and longer - people can continue to usually use PCs that are a decade or more old if they're not gaming on it - but people still have PCs, and will buy new ones when they can no longer use the old one.

But hey, let's revisit this if Nvidia does release ARM CPUs and there are "Nvidia PCs" out there, maybe six months after release so we can see how its flop compares to Qualcomm's flop. When they fail to make any dent in Intel/AMD's PC market share I'll look forward to your excuses as to why that didn't happen despite this supposed pent up demand for a PC with an "Nvidia inside" label.
 
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igor_kavinski

Lifer
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Doug S said:
But hey, let's revisit this if Nvidia does release ARM CPUs and there are "Nvidia PCs" out there, maybe six months after release so we can see how its flop compares to Qualcomm's flop. When they fail to make any dent in Intel/AMD's PC market share I'll look forward to your excuses as to why that didn't happen despite this supposed pent up demand for a PC with an "Nvidia inside" label.
Click to expand...
I'm not throwing my weight behind an Nvidia ARM PC but anything can happen. My point was simply that Nvidia GPUs are as irrationally treasured as Macs. I skipped the entire 4000 series. Only the 5070 looks mildly interesting to me but I won't get it unless it goes below $500 or does something really special.

Now that Nvidia stocks have suffered a $600B loss, maybe Jensen will buy Intel to boost Nvidia's stock price by promising some wild future. And Intel's murky Lakes saga will finally come to a close.
 
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Geddagod

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Dec 28, 2021
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Doug S said:
What percentage of people who buy laptops with an Nvidia GPU inside could answer the question "who made the GPU in your laptop?" or even "what is a GPU?" And who is buying "workstation laptops"? Very few consumers do - their company buys it for them and they use what they're given. I agree that AMD still suffers the stigma of being "lesser" than Intel when it comes to PCs in the eyes of consumers. "Intel Inside" is still paying dividends - and that hurts not only AMD but also Qualcomm, and yes, Nvidia should they start appearing in ARM PCs.

I think you greatly overestimate the ability for average consumers to give a sh-- about the kind of stuff we who post on Anandtech forums do. The reason Intel had to spend countless millions on the "Intel Inside" campaign and made OEMs put stickers a few billion PCs in the past quarter century is because average consumers don't give a sh-- about the brands inside the mystery box they buy. Without Intel's branding campaign, if you asked them what kind of a CPU their PC has they'd say "it's a Dell, I think".
Click to expand...
Not just average consumers, this dude is a CS major btw lol
 
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OneEng2

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Sep 19, 2022
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511 said:
Where is the 40% lol it was always 20% from Phoronix reviewa
Click to expand...

DKR said:
It is not 40% (that is due to GNR not scaling well in 2P config), GNR is -18% perf/watt vs Turin on Geo Mean in Phoronix reivew on 1P case. There were also issues with GNR that was being worked out by Intel per Michael during his review of Turin.
Another thing to note is Phoronix did not use any of the in-built accelerators of GNR. That could help further narrow the gap for GNR with Turin.
https://www.reddit.com/r/Amd/comments/1fq2vry/comment/lp31ya0

AMD's free cash flow generation is not so great even now, and they have to make investments to compete with Nvidia in AI GPUs now. There is no way they can put pressure on Intel right now (imho).
Click to expand...

GNR is not scaling well in 2P since September of 2024. Starting to seem more like something that isn't fixable like the fabled fix to ARL don't you think? Also, getting beat by a geometric mean of 20% isn't exactly great in single socket either. If ARL was behind in all desktop applications by that far, everyone would be proclaiming the end of Intel.

My point is that DC not doing well is a bigger problem for Intel than gaming performance not doing well from a financial standpoint and as a future of the company standpoint.

I guess we will get another quarterly report at the end of March to see if GNR is making any difference at all for Intel. Hard to see how it would unless AMD can't supply the channel (which was sometimes the case in the past in desktop and laptop).

I believe that Intel's future will be heavily dependent on Clearwater Forest success.
 
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511

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Thibsie said:
But it IS the end of Intel, that Intel we knew till now. To paraphrase REM, something like: "It's the end of the Intel as we know it, and I feel fine"
Click to expand...
The end of that Intel started with kranzich when they became complacent I hope the Andy Grove Ruthless Intel never come again but I want Intel to keep Innovating
 
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