Question US investigating security risks relating to TP Link Routers

Dec 10, 2005
27,223
11,379
136
I had an Archer C5 for a long while, but TP-Link kind of pissed me off overall with it. The thing would need to be rebooted any time you would want to access the web interface. But they also seemed to have a habit of abandoning any support, and constantly releasing new versions of routers as part of their abandoning support program...
 
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JackMDS

Elite Member
Super Moderator
Oct 25, 1999
29,524
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For business I would use any of these Types.

For home. I get a secured Router only, and use the TP-Link types as a Bridged Access Point for Wireless.


 

akugami

Diamond Member
Feb 14, 2005
6,210
2,549
136
Are there any non Chinese made routers?

MikroTik. Their wireless AP's suck, but wired devices are fantastic. For the needs of the company I work for, we only scratch the surface of what their routers can do. But it gives you high functionality at consumer level prices. NOTE: The company is Latvian, but devices are manufactured in China.

For ETH only, the MikroTik L009UiGS-RM has 9 ports (8x ETH, 1x SFP) with an MSRP of $119. The L009 has a USB port for plugging in something like a thumb drive. They do make a WIFI version, MikroTik L009UiGS-2HaxD-IN, but the WIFI is only on 2.4Ghz, for an extra $10 MSRP. We use this at work, as most of the business wireless devices we deploy don't have 5Ghz anyways. Powerful enough to run a simple container, such as pihole for ad blocking.

If you want to move up in power, the MikroTik RB5009UG+S+IN is MSRP $219. The RB5009 trades the SFP port for an SFP+ port, and has a more powerful CPU. Otherwise very similar to the L009.

I'd pair them with a better AP, like one from Ubiquiti.


As far as worrying about built in backdoors on a TP-Link, I think the chances of that are remote and would likely have been found out by now. I'd be more worried about shoddy firmware with zero-day vulnerabilities. Keep in mind that even Cisco devices have had zero day vulnerabilities. And that's where support comes in and why devices from the likes of Cisco, or MikroTik, cost more. It's the long term support, and patching of vulnerabilities with new firmware. And TP-Link is not going to give you that level of support. It's likely their devices will have no more than 3 years max of firmware updates. For comparison, the MikroTik RB2011 was recently discontinued, but there was roughly 10 years worth of firmware updates for it. Not that all of the firmware updates was problem free...but still...
 

mindless1

Diamond Member
Aug 11, 2001
8,583
1,665
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So the question is, if you are running DD-WRT or other 3rd party firmware is this still a issue??
Very unlikely, and though I can't speak for *all* 3rd party firmware, DD-WRT hasn't had a backdoor since a few builds around 2008-ish.
 

JackMDS

Elite Member
Super Moderator
Oct 25, 1999
29,524
413
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Back door is a general term and there is numerous ways to actually deal with it.

While we can assume that most Solid Manufactures know and even try them self variety of 3rd party firmware, small third party "Players" do not know exactly the in-house conundrums of the large manufactures.

If some big government agencies want to use their country manufacturers for nefarious purposes they can order manufacturers do it by adding actual software chips that might be control by hardware and by the software firmware.


 
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DaaQ

Golden Member
Dec 8, 2018
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A year or so ago, my company had a deadline to remove ALL Huawei equipment and ordered to destroy it. Don't know if there was reimbursement at all. but it was mandated.
 

In2Photos

Platinum Member
Mar 21, 2007
2,401
2,621
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I have a TP Link Mesh system that I bought a couple of years ago, even got one for my in-laws. I've recommended that same system here a couple of times. Really hate to see stuff like this come out after the fact. I've honestly been kicking around the idea of getting into the Unify stuff and redoing some of my network now that our neighborhood is getting fiber and I'm doing more with my UnRAID server again. This might push me more in that direction.
 
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DaaQ

Golden Member
Dec 8, 2018
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I have a TP Link Mesh system that I bought a couple of years ago, even got one for my in-laws. I've recommended that same system here a couple of times. Really hate to see stuff like this come out after the fact. I've honestly been kicking around the idea of getting into the Unify stuff and redoing some of my network now that our neighborhood is getting fiber and I'm doing more with my UnRAID server again. This might push me more in that direction.
Keep an eye on the PoE Unifi items, they are not standardized, at least when I built my system, they used 24 and 48v PoE which caused the use of dongles for parts. Even though I have a PoE switch.
 

mindless1

Diamond Member
Aug 11, 2001
8,583
1,665
126
Back door is a general term and there is numerous ways to actually deal with it.

While we can assume that most Solid Manufactures know and even try them self variety of 3rd party firmware, small third party "Players" do not know exactly the in-house conundrums of the large manufactures.

If some big government agencies want to use their country manufacturers for nefarious purposes they can order manufacturers do it by adding actual software chips that might be control by hardware and by the software firmware.


I agree but this is next level stuff. Sure, government can throw a billion dollars at it, but we're getting savvy at dissecting hardware.

Given a particular chipset, there are prior examples through chipset datasheets, reviews, and FCC pics of hardware, to recognize what chips belong on a (router in this case) chipset and which don't.

So you have the core processor and an EEPROM, and any other *extra* chips where the functionality can't be identified would be suspect, so there are a couple options.

1) Make the EEPROM a larger capacity than is marked, scrub the markings off and reprint it or make it from scratch with a mislabeled capacity designation, so after the expected firmware size is met, there is still room for a loader for the real OS. This might still require #2 if people are flashing 3rd party firmware.

2) Much more work, fab an entirely counterfeit processor with embedded nvram, a very costly thing to do and to pass it off, would have to have the same IC footprint to not be detected, yet shoehorn in the extra nvram on the die. I don't see this happening for consumer grade devices sold at tier 3 pricing (behind corp and tier 1 premium consumer brands), but then I can't pretend to know what a government military budget deems most cost worthy - it just seems like this isn't it, when the vast majority of consumers won't be good targets. High value targets, I suspect will tend to use more esteemed and higher end hardware, not TPLink.
 
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dlerious

Platinum Member
Mar 4, 2004
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850
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I agree but this is next level stuff. Sure, government can throw a billion dollars at it, but we're getting savvy at dissecting hardware.

Given a particular chipset, there are prior examples through chipset datasheets, reviews, and FCC pics of hardware, to recognize what chips belong on a (router in this case) chipset and which don't.

So you have the core processor and an EEPROM, and any other *extra* chips where the functionality can't be identified would be suspect, so there are a couple options.

1) Make the EEPROM a larger capacity than is marked, scrub the markings off and reprint it or make it from scratch with a mislabeled capacity designation, so after the expected firmware size is met, there is still room for a loader for the real OS. This might still require #2 if people are flashing 3rd party firmware.

2) Much more work, fab an entirely counterfeit processor with embedded nvram, a very costly thing to do and to pass it off, would have to have the same IC footprint to not be detected, yet shoehorn in the extra nvram on the die. I don't see this happening for consumer grade devices sold at tier 3 pricing (behind corp and tier 1 premium consumer brands), but then I can't pretend to know what a government military budget deems most cost worthy - it just seems like this isn't it, when the vast majority of consumers won't be good targets. High value targets, I suspect will tend to use more esteemed and higher end hardware, not TPLink.
What about hard coded default passwords? I've bought things in the past where settings were behind user:admin pass: admin or similar.
 

Hail The Brain Slug

Diamond Member
Oct 10, 2005
3,709
2,963
136
What about hard coded default passwords? I've bought things in the past where settings were behind user:admin pass: admin or similar.
I think the accepted practice now is to use a unique password, such as one of the MAC addresses or a generated password, both of which would be printed on the product label so you can only get default access if you have physical access to the machine.

That, or immediately force password change upon setup.
 

WelshBloke

Lifer
Jan 12, 2005
32,373
10,481
136
I have a TP archer tx20uh and it is the worst bit of networking hardware I've ever used. Constantly drops connections and won't reconnect, sometimes Windows acts like it doesn't exist at all. It's absolutely awful, would not recommend!
 
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Hail The Brain Slug

Diamond Member
Oct 10, 2005
3,709
2,963
136
I have a TP archer tx20uh and it is the worst bit of networking hardware I've ever used. Constantly drops connections and won't reconnect, sometimes Windows acts like it doesn't exist at all. It's absolutely awful, would not recommend!
They've definitely made the shovelware equivalent of routers. I would never use one of their standard consumer routers. Things might be better if you buy their premium offerings but since I switched to OPNSense I'm never looking back.

Their omada network gear can be pretty good, and I've never seen logs of any of that stuff phoning home or initiating any external network activity except the omada controller doing firmware update checks and checking for cloud management upon login.

Yes, I setup firewall rules to monitor it until I decided I was reasonably satisfied it wasn't chinese spyware.
 

WelshBloke

Lifer
Jan 12, 2005
32,373
10,481
136
They've definitely made the shovelware equivalent of routers. I would never use one of their standard consumer routers. Things might be better if you buy their premium offerings but since I switched to OPNSense I'm never looking back.

Their omada network gear can be pretty good, and I've never seen logs of any of that stuff phoning home or initiating any external network activity except the omada controller doing firmware update checks and checking for cloud management upon login.

Yes, I setup firewall rules to monitor it until I decided I was reasonably satisfied it wasn't chinese spyware.
That was one of their usb WiFi adapters. It's made it so I won't be buying any of their other stuff!
 

mindless1

Diamond Member
Aug 11, 2001
8,583
1,665
126
What about hard coded default passwords? I've bought things in the past where settings were behind user:admin pass: admin or similar.
We were talking about DD-WRT? Yes it has a default password coded, necessarily(?) so if flashing a 3rd party firmware, then won't accept the coded default once the password is changed. That's really easy to test.

Who that is interested in security AT ALL, would keep the default login on a router instead of changing it? I'd have to check to be certain, but I doubt that by default, it even lets wifi or wan logins happen.
 

Steltek

Diamond Member
Mar 29, 2001
3,300
1,043
136
We were talking about DD-WRT? Yes it has a default password coded, necessarily(?) so if flashing a 3rd party firmware, then won't accept the coded default once the password is changed. That's really easy to test.

Who that is interested in security AT ALL, would keep the default login on a router instead of changing it? I'd have to check to be certain, but I doubt that by default, it even lets wifi or wan logins happen.

It has been a while since I installed it on a router, but I do think DD-WRT does force a password change at initial installation.
 

RhoXS

Member
Aug 14, 2010
193
11
81
Are there any non Chinese made routers?
Good question. It got me curious since I mostly now have Netgear products.

Per Wikipedia:

"Netgear, Inc. ... is an American computer networking company based in San Jose, California ..."

"NETGEAR’s primary manufacturers are ... all of which are headquartered in Taiwan."
"Manufacturing occurs primarily in Vietnam, Thailand, Indonesia, and Taiwan."

"Netgear was unaffected by US President Donald Trump's 25% tariffs on Chinese imports. Because all manufacturing is outsourced, the company was able to shift its production lines from China to Vietnam, Thailand and Indonesia."
 
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