Discussion Intel Meteor, Arrow, Lunar & Panther Lakes Discussion Threads

Tigerick · Aug 22, 2022

As Hot Chips 34 starting this week, Intel will unveil technical information of upcoming Meteor Lake (MTL) and Arrow Lake (ARL), new generation platform after Raptor Lake. Both MTL and ARL represent new direction which Intel will move to multiple chiplets and combine as one SoC platform.

MTL also represents new compute tile that based on Intel 4 process which is based on EUV lithography, a first from Intel. Intel expects to ship MTL mobile SoC in 2023.

ARL will come after MTL so Intel should be shipping it in 2024, that is what Intel roadmap is telling us. ARL compute tile will be manufactured by Intel 20A process, a first from Intel to use GAA transistors called RibbonFET.

Comparison of upcoming Intel's U-series CPU: Core Ultra 100U, Lunar Lake and Panther Lake

Model	Code-Name	Date	TDP	Node	Tiles	Main Tile	CPU	LP E-Core	LLC	GPU	Xe-cores
Core Ultra 100U	Meteor Lake	Q4 2023	15 - 57 W	Intel 4 + N5 + N6	4	tCPU	2P + 8E	2	12 MB	Intel Graphics	4
?	Lunar Lake	Q4 2024	17 - 30 W	N3B + N6	2	CPU + GPU & IMC	4P + 4E	0	12 MB	Arc	8
?	Panther Lake	Q1 2026 ?	?	Intel 18A + N3E	3	CPU + MC	4P + 8E	4	?	Arc	12

Comparison of die size of Each Tile of Meteor Lake, Arrow Lake, Lunar Lake and Panther Lake

	Meteor Lake	Arrow Lake (N3B)	Lunar Lake	Panther Lake
Platform	Mobile H/U Only	Desktop & Mobile H&HX	Mobile U Only	Mobile H
Process Node	Intel 4	TSMC N3B	TSMC N3B	Intel 18A
Date	Q4 2023	Desktop-Q4-2024 H&HX-Q1-2025	Q4 2024	Q1 2026 ?
Full Die	6P + 8P	8P + 16E	4P + 4E	4P + 8E
LLC	24 MB	36 MB ?	12 MB	?
tCPU	66.48
tGPU	44.45
SoC	96.77
IOE	44.45
Total	252.15

Intel Core Ultra 100 - Meteor Lake

As mentioned by Tomshardware, TSMC will manufacture the I/O, SoC, and GPU tiles. That means Intel will manufacture only the CPU and Foveros tiles. (Notably, Intel calls the I/O tile an 'I/O Expander,' hence the IOE moniker.)

511 · Feb 9, 2025

NVL doesn't use Foveros Direct

https://twitter.com/x/status/1888606938356977681

dttprofessor · Feb 9, 2025

250w，maybe.

ondma · Feb 9, 2025

511 said:
I am waiting for Igor to leak NVL Performance Projection like they did with arrow lake.

Since the core count is 16P+32E I bet the 32E alone would have greater Multi than ARL-S and 2X over ARL is possible 100K R23?

I hope they don't use DLVR on Desktop there is no need for it on Desktop.

Any guesstimate for ST Performance?

I was at first really excited about this rumor. However, I wonder how they will be able to control temperatures and power consumption. ARL cut power somewhat, but they still approach 250 or 300 watts maxed out with 8p 16e. If there is a 16P Nova Lake, it might not be that great for gaming--- not sure what kind of 1T performance they can get out of that.

igor_kavinski · Feb 9, 2025

ondma said:
If there is a 16P Nova Lake, it might not be that great for gaming--- not sure what kind of 1T performance they can get out of that.

I think their chances are great if they put a low latency (<50 ns) 128MB cache in the SoC tile for 16P Nova Lake. For gaming workloads, the CPU shouldn't consume more than 125W overall. If they can manage at least 15% IPC increase over Lion Cove with guaranteed 5.5 GHz clocks, they may manage to be competitive with Zen 6.

511 · Feb 9, 2025

igor_kavinski said:
I think their chances are great if they put a low latency (<50 ns) 128MB cache in the SoC tile for 16P Nova Lake. For gaming workloads, the CPU shouldn't consume more than 125W overall. If they can manage at least 15% IPC increase over Lion Cove with guaranteed 5.5 GHz clocks, they may manage to be competitive with Zen 6.

The IPC Estimate should be 20% or more considering we are getting both a Tick (Cougar) and Tock(Panther Cove) and fixing lost IPC From ARL

igor_kavinski · Feb 9, 2025

I'll be satisfied if they get 15% IPC increase and fix the gaming performance. Let's not expect too much from them. They barely got back their fruits and coffee.

Thunder 57 · Feb 9, 2025

511 said:
The IPC Estimate should be 20% or more considering we are getting both a Tick (Cougar) and Tock(Panther Cove) and fixing lost IPC From ARL

I think the days of 20% IPC increases are over inluess it is being compared to a previous architecture that is broken in some way..

511 · Feb 9, 2025

Thunder 57 said:
I think the days of 20% IPC increases are over inluess it is being compared to a previous architecture that is broken in some way..

Well the ARL architecture was borked so... Also E core team is going to deliver 25% IPC over skymont lol

Thunder 57 · Feb 9, 2025

511 said:
Also E core team is going to deliver 25% IPC over skymont lol

Where's that coming from? I haven't seen any leaks.

MoistOintment · Feb 9, 2025

Thunder 57 said:
I think the days of 20% IPC increases are over inluess it is being compared to a previous architecture that is broken in some way..

I'm not gonna even attempt to project IPC gains this early out - but ARL -> NVL is a two generation jump.

Kepler_L2 · Feb 9, 2025

MoistOintment said:
I'm not gonna even attempt to project IPC gains this early out - but ARL -> NVL is a two generation jump.

So was RPL -> ARL

Thunder 57 · Feb 9, 2025

MoistOintment said:
I'm not gonna even attempt to project IPC gains this early out - but ARL -> NVL is a two generation jump.

What's in between? ARL refresh? If so, then we are just arguing semantics over what a generation actually is.

MoistOintment · Feb 9, 2025

Thunder 57 said:
What's in between? ARL refresh? If so, then we are just arguing semantics over what a generation actually is.

Panther Lake. It's just not coming to desktop.

Kepler_L2 said:
So was RPL -> ARL

And SkMT saw a greater than 20% IPC increase...

Thunder 57 · Feb 9, 2025

MoistOintment said:
Panther Lake. It's just not coming to desktop.

Fair enough.

MoistOintment said:
And SkMT saw a greater than 20% IPC increase...

I suggest you read the C&C articles on Skymont and you will realize why it was so successful. It might also make you rethink your position that another huge IPC increase can be done as readily. I'm all for it if they can but I'm not expecting it.

igor_kavinski · Feb 9, 2025

Nova Lake won't have a mont anymore. It will be an Arctic Wolf. The codename change may indicate an entirely different beast.

Kepler_L2 · Feb 9, 2025

MoistOintment said:
And SkMT saw a greater than 20% IPC increase...

Yeah with over a doubling of transistor count. N3B -> N2 is only a ~15% density increase, so unlikely they will have such a high IPC gain in a row.

511 · Feb 10, 2025

Kepler_L2 said:
Yeah with over a doubling of transistor count. N3B -> N2 is only a ~15% density increase, so unlikely they will have such a high IPC gain in a row.

Really cause my source is Raichu

https://twitter.com/x/status/1851828922310336518

Just have to dig the tweet

Kepler_L2 · Feb 10, 2025

511 said:
Really cause my source is Raichu

https://twitter.com/x/status/1851828922310336518
Just have to dig the tweet
View attachment 116684

20% sounds believable, I just don't believe they can do Skymont 2.0

511 · Feb 10, 2025

Kepler_L2 said:
20% sounds believable, I just don't believe they can do Skymont 2.0

20% over darkmont which is 4-5% over skymont so 25% over SKT but another skymont seems impossible if they do it though I wouldn't be shocked

511 · Feb 10, 2025

Intel Core Ultra 9 285H im MSI Prestige 16 AI Evo im Test

Nach der Vorstellung zur CES ist „Arrow Lake-H“ alias Intel Core Ultra 200H ab sofort verfügbar. Der erste Test im MSI Prestige 16 AI Evo.

www.computerbase.de

ARL-H Review

OneEng2 · Feb 10, 2025

igor_kavinski said:
I think their chances are great if they put a low latency (<50 ns) 128MB cache in the SoC tile for 16P Nova Lake. For gaming workloads, the CPU shouldn't consume more than 125W overall. If they can manage at least 15% IPC increase over Lion Cove with guaranteed 5.5 GHz clocks, they may manage to be competitive with Zen 6.

Even if so, it will still be behind current X3D and most certainly behind Zen 6 X3D. I think Intel needs an answer to X3D technology that drastically lowers memory latency. The current ARL design already has huge issues in latency. I think they will be doing good just to free up the current design, rather on starting with expectations of Zen 5 and expecting latency improvements so drastic in Nova Lake that it surpasses X3D.

Keep in mind, moving from N3B to 18A is not going to give Intel much additional transistor budget to work with (unlike the move to N3B did).

511 said:
The IPC Estimate should be 20% or more considering we are getting both a Tick (Cougar) and Tock(Panther Cove) and fixing lost IPC From ARL

... and this is how people got so disappointed by ARL. You take all the little leaks, add up the IPC improvements you see in each change, then sum them all up to get a really big number ..... and then are very disappointed when the product comes out as all these theoretical improvements don't translate into real world performance.

As I stated above, the additional transistor budget expected by 18A over N3B shouldn't be expected to gain much IPC as cache, logic buffers, TLA, front end, execution units, etc, etc, wont likely be afforded much growth.

I expect some good improvements in some applications if Intel can just get their latency under control. Others (that are already doing well on ARL) wont gain much at all.

Thunder 57 said:
I think the days of 20% IPC increases are over inluess it is being compared to a previous architecture that is broken in some way..

I agree, because the days of getting 50% higher transistor budget are ALSO over .

511 · Feb 10, 2025

We still have CFETs

OneEng2 · Feb 11, 2025

If Intel spent 20Bn on GAA with BSPDN, how much do you think it will cost to do CFET with buried power via? It is my understanding that the CFET process will add as many process steps over GAA as GAA did beyond FinFET. Another 20Bn?

The alure of 2x density is a powerful draw though. From what I can read now, it looks like 2030+ for this technology.

511 · Feb 11, 2025

OneEng2 said:
If Intel spent 20Bn on GAA with BSPDN, how much do you think it will cost to do CFET with buried power via? It is my understanding that the CFET process will add as many process steps over GAA as GAA did beyond FinFET. Another 20Bn?

The alure of 2x density is a powerful draw though. From what I can read now, it looks like 2030+ for this technology.

It is 2032 from Imec and 20 Billion is the cost of a single fab the R&D is less the main cost are the Fab and first time ramp cost and stuff

Raqia · Feb 11, 2025

igor_kavinski said:
Nova Lake won't have a mont anymore. It will be an Arctic Wolf. The codename change may indicate an entirely different beast.

So of the 3-tiered cores, we have Coyote Cove for P-Cores, Arctic Wolf for E-Cores, and there are also the LP-Cores... Are these rumored to also be Arctic wolf derived and sit separately on the SoC tile as with Lunar and Arrow Lake?

Discussion Intel Meteor, Arrow, Lunar & Panther Lakes Discussion Threads

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