Discussion AMD SoC Halo series GPU discussion

coercitiv · Thursday at 8:08 AM

DavidC1 said:
You are missing what I said. I said "Desktop" APU.

You're not making much sense, at this point it looks as if you just want to win the argument. There are obvious downsides to matching CPU+GPU in a single package, and those downsides will become painfully apparent on a platform that cares little about space and power.

The BoM of STX-H does not have to make sense for desktops in order to make sense for laptops. Maybe STX-H cannot go down to value or budget levels, we'll even have to wait and see if AMD finds reasons to drive enough volume and make this part relevant for "premium" gamers, but the point @uzzi38 (and others) made repeatedly is that using a premium Asus "tablet" to assess the price of this APU is a recipe for error.

mmaenpaa · Thursday at 9:47 AM

coercitiv said:
You're not making much sense, at this point it looks as if you just want to win the argument. There are obvious downsides to matching CPU+GPU in a single package, and those downsides will become painfully apparent on a platform that cares little about space and power.

The BoM of STX-H does not have to make sense for desktops in order to make sense for laptops. Maybe STX-H cannot go down to value or budget levels, we'll even have to wait and see if AMD finds reasons to drive enough volume and make this part relevant for "premium" gamers, but the point @uzzi38 (and others) made repeatedly is that using a premium Asus "tablet" to assess the price of this APU is a recipe for error.

STX-H is a perfect match for Lenovo Z13/Z16 class business / workstation laptops.
If halo's GPU is ~ 4070m perfomance it allows "real" 3D design without DGPU.

GTracing · Thursday at 10:05 AM

mmaenpaa said:
STX-H is a perfect match for Lenovo Z13/Z16 class business / workstation laptops.
If halo's GPU is ~ 4070m perfomance it allows "real" 3D design without DGPU.

It's only 4070m performance when the 4070m is limited to 65W or below. A full power 4060m beats strix halo. That's for gaming at least, not sure if AMD or Nvidia have any advantage over the other in CAD.

adroc_thurston · Thursday at 10:14 AM

GTracing said:
It's only 4070m performance when the 4070m is limited to 65W or below

Nope, competitive all the way up there, at way lower power too (since it's *package* power for stxH. you know, with the CPU).

ToTTenTranz · Thursday at 10:50 AM

GTracing said:
It's only 4070m performance when the 4070m is limited to 65W or below. A full power 4060m beats strix halo.

Do you have any benchmarks for Strix Halo on 120W?

And we're kind of forgetting about the 8GB limitation again, aren't we?

GTracing · Thursday at 10:53 AM

adroc_thurston said:
Nope, competitive all the way up there, at way lower power too (since it's *package* power for stxH. you know, with the CPU).

Do you have any source on that? Notebookcheck's review is the only one I've found that compares Strix Halo to full power a 4060m or 4070m laptop.

Across their 7 game spread, a full power (140W) 4060m is 10% ahead.

GTracing · Thursday at 10:57 AM

ToTTenTranz said:
Do you have any benchmarks for Strix Halo on 120W?

And we're kind of forgetting about the 8GB limitation again, aren't we?

No, I don't think there are any yet. But judging by The Phawx's review, gaming performance levels off completely after 70W.

marees · Thursday at 11:00 AM

GTracing said:
No, I don't think there are any yet. But judging by The Phawx's review, gaming performance levels off completely after 70W.
View attachment 117711

That is for that particular device & cooling

adroc_thurston · Thursday at 11:02 AM

marees said:
That is for that particular device & cooling

no, it really does.
70W is all the SOC needs more or less.

ToTTenTranz · Thursday at 11:38 AM

GTracing said:
Across their 7 game spread, a full power (140W) 4060m is 10% ahead.

Yes, the 140W 4060m that can only be put into thick and loud laptops gets to be 10% faster in a plethora of games that include the most recent AAAs like.. checks notes.. DOTA 2 from 2013, X-Plane 11 from 2016, Final Fantasy XV and Strange Brigade from 2018.

Meanwhile all those 8GB dGPUs will show this egregious experience in actual modern AAA games:

In 2025, all 8GB GPUs should be avoided like the plague.
It won't take that long before 20W APUs with access to 24/32GB system RAM provide a much better experience without stuttering, even if the FPS numbers are lower.
The main dev targets of 2020 consoles with 16GB system RAM are killing the 8GB discrete GPUs (and the Series S for that matter).

GTracing · Thursday at 11:54 AM

ToTTenTranz said:
Yes, the 140W 4060m that can only be put into thick and loud laptops gets to be 10% faster in a plethora of games that include the most recent AAAs like.. checks notes.. DOTA 2 from 2013, X-Plane 11 from 2016, Final Fantasy XV and Strange Brigade from 2018.

Meanwhile all those 8GB dGPUs will show this egregious experience in actual modern AAA games:

In 2025, all 8GB GPUs should be avoided like the plague.
It won't take that long before 20W APUs with access to 24/32GB system RAM provide a much better experience without stuttering, even if the FPS numbers are lower.
The main dev targets of 2020 consoles with 16GB system RAM are killing the 8GB discrete GPUs (and the Series S for that matter).

I'm confused by what I'm supposed to take away from that video. It's showing an 8GB GPU achieving ~60fps average. Isn't that pretty good?

ToTTenTranz · Thursday at 12:31 PM

GTracing said:
I'm confused by what I'm supposed to take away from that video. It's showing an 8GB GPU achieving ~60fps average. Isn't that pretty good?

You're confused because you didn't see the video at the time stamp.

Hint:

GTracing · Thursday at 12:45 PM

ToTTenTranz said:
You're confused because you didn't see the video at the time stamp.

Hint:

View attachment 117724

I don't think the stuttering is caused by a lack of VRAM. The 16GB 4060 ti has similar 1% lows to the 8GB 4060.

article

fastandfurious6 · Thursday at 1:32 PM

yeah the 4060m perf difference btw 70W vs 140W is 10% at best

pointless bc laptops have tight thermal budget

x2 juice for 10% perf lol. the chip's capabilities get fully flexed, no more juice can fix that

best way to run 4060 is undervolt + overclock + peg @ 80w

cooler temps allow absorbing juice more easily, better for the stomach

thermal/W management is numba #1 important in mobile chips

DavidC1 · Thursday at 2:28 PM

coercitiv said:
You're not making much sense, at this point it looks as if you just want to win the argument. There are obvious downsides to matching CPU+GPU in a single package, and those downsides will become painfully apparent on a platform that cares little about space and power.

You are misunderstanding as @uzzi38 is.

I said a company that takes a desktop chip with a low end iGPU like the Ryzen 8000G and prices it in a way so you need to buy at $330 USD chip to get the highest end GPU with still anemic performance(Intel does the same of course), and bad pricing that only undercuts "greedy" Nvidia in their dGPUs isn't going to suddenly turn around and give you cheap-as-chips in a halo part. No, they are in there for money.

It seems good for now in some corner case scenario against that super overpriced Nvidia part, but I can't see yet how this is going to change things in the long term. It's still yet to be proven whether it'll have the same effect as the regular iGPUs did against low end dGPUs.

They aren't going to give you Ryzen 3 with this GPU, because the point of a feature checkmark is to use to upsell. So you are "forced" to buy with a Ryzen 7 or 9 CPU and price it accordingly. In fact, they are kinda doing it already with the "free iGPU" so why would they do that with halo?

At the end of the day we have ZERO control of what goes in laptops and it's a black box. So the question is how it performs, how good is the battery life, and how much it costs?

Kronos1996 · Thursday at 2:55 PM

As someone who lurks on this forum to see intelligent people discuss hardware, this thread has been a crushing disappointment. 😂

poke01 · Thursday at 3:11 PM

RnR_au said:
I would wait to see what HP will charge for their Z2 Mini G1a. Seems they have a decent chunk of copper in there as well as two fans...

View attachment 117681

Taken from this video...

wait this mini pc is awesome. Please be $2500.

GTracing said:
No, I don't think there are any yet. But judging by The Phawx's review, gaming performance levels off completely after 70W.
View attachment 117711

It also does so in productivity tasks. This is strictly a 70 w TDP device if it’s a mobile device. Not meant to be used at 120watts.

In fact the sweet spot is 50 watts especially for the tablet.

uzzi38 · Thursday at 3:36 PM

DavidC1 said:
You are misunderstanding as @uzzi38 is.

I said a company that takes a desktop chip with a low end iGPU like the Ryzen 8000G and prices it in a way so you need to buy at $330 USD chip to get the highest end GPU with still anemic performance(Intel does the same of course), and bad pricing that only undercuts "greedy" Nvidia in their dGPUs isn't going to suddenly turn around and give you cheap-as-chips in a halo part. No, they are in there for money.

But the pricing there isn't based off of the GPU performance only. In case you forgot, those products also have CPUs attached to them as well. The pricing for these products will factor in both sides of the argument. The top end 800Gs were factored like they are what they are: 8 core CPUs with a competent - but not super powerful - iGPU attached. Trying to suggest APUs should be priced to compete against dGPUs is a bit ridiculous, it completely ignores half the product.

I don't think Strix Halo has a chance of disrupting the market because I believe AMD will heavily outprice Nvidia. I'm saying it because it's technologically a better product. You get better power efficiency (as LPDDR will always be more power efficient then GDDR - that's literally the point of it), unified memory does have some (small) performance wins over two dedicated pools (no need to copy data over etc) and you don't have to deal with any mux switch based shenanigans.

DavidC1 said:
It seems good for now in some corner case scenario against that super overpriced Nvidia part, but I can't see yet how this is going to change things in the long term. It's still yet to be proven whether it'll have the same effect as the regular iGPUs did against low end dGPUs.

I think the proof is in the pudding. Intel, Qualcomm and Nvidia (in partnership with Mediatek) will all have their own competing products in the market within the next couple of years. I think the clear benefits Strix Halo shows in this first iteration sets those future products up to hit the ground running.

Well, maybe not Qualcomm, their GPU drivers are abysmal. But Intel and Nvidia for sure will keep the momentum going.

I expect pricing to be in line with the competition, which is a top end mobile CPU with AD106 GPU. I think the Z13 also shows pricing likely is in line with that combination of CPU and GPU. I don't know why you keep on acting like I'm suggesting anything less than that.

ryanjagtap · Thursday at 3:41 PM

I think the 120W TDP is the case when both the CPU+GPU are fully utilized (not in the Flow z13's case, but a hypothetical mini PC or large workstation laptop with sufficient cooling split in 55W+65W for the SoC) Thoughts?

adroc_thurston · Thursday at 3:46 PM

ryanjagtap said:
I think the 120W TDP is the case when both the CPU+GPU are fully utilized

No, it literally maxes out at 70W (more or less).

ryanjagtap said:
but a hypothetical mini PC or large workstation laptop with sufficient cooling split in 55W+65W for the SoC) Thoughts?

What workload will load the CPU and the GPU like that?

poke01 · Thursday at 4:17 PM

uzzi38 said:
Well, maybe not Qualcomm, their GPU drivers are abysmal. But Intel and Nvidia for sure will keep the momentum going.

Apple will make better modems at least on the par of Mediatek before Qualcomms make good windows drivers that I can bet this account on. Cross out Qualcomm, they are useless when talking about HPC.

Tup3x · Thursday at 4:48 PM

It would be nice if this started The Great PC APU Performance War.

adroc_thurston · Thursday at 6:40 PM

Tup3x said:
It would be nice if this started The Great PC APU Performance War.

Well, yeah, it did.
Either you ship or you surrender the niche to AMD just like the handhelds.

fastandfurious6 · Thursday at 7:27 PM

nvidia cannot ship x86

intel will take a miracle to compete on-time

who else?

adroc_thurston · Thursday at 7:38 PM

fastandfurious6 said:
nvidia cannot ship x86

intel will take a miracle to compete on-time

who else?

Qualcomm. Technically. Glymur is a halo-ish part.

Discussion AMD SoC Halo series GPU discussion

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