Democratic Party - Clueless & Feckless - is the D party done?

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MrSquished

Lifer
Jan 14, 2013
25,535
23,887
136
Your congresspeople all voted against the CR and cloture. Good behavior should be rewarded.

Bad behavior should be punished (thinking of you Dick Durbin when I move back to IL).
I am not going to support a primary against them but I can no longer be a Democrat.

This has been a long time coming. The Dem party has had shitty leadership for years now. Their strategies and messaging have sucked for a while, plus this is the leadership that fucked us by letting Biden steamroll a primary like he was a fucking king. It's all the Dems fault for letting this continue for so many years and putting us in this position. This is way beyond the final straw - the Dems are all responsible for getting us here by not rocking the bullshit party for too many years. This goes WAYYYYYYYYYYYYYYYYYYYY beyond this vote, this is for years and years of failure.

The Dems need to see themselves losing registered voters. I am going to urge all the Dems I know to switch to independent.

This goes way beyond one vote man. This is just a totally failed fucking party.
 
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[DHT]Osiris

Lifer
Dec 15, 2015
16,596
15,480
146
Saw Sen. Whitehouse on MSNBC today, he had very good arguments for both sides, the negative is that you have absolutely no recourse as a minority party to affect anything once things get shut down. He did not commit to how he was going to vote in the interview. I'm sure I'm going to get shit but I think things really need to calm down.
I really don't know much about anything anymore, but I trust Whitehouse's perspective.
Shrug, just do what Republicans would do, vote to shut it down then call for impeachment for allowing the govt to be shut down, every day.
 
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K1052

Elite Member
Aug 21, 2003
50,911
42,729
136
I am not going to support a primary against them but I can no longer be a Democrat.

This has been a long time coming. The Dem party has had shitty leadership for years now. Their strategies and messaging have sucked for a while, plus this is the leadership that fucked us by letting Biden steamroll a primary like he was a fucking king. It's all the Dems fault for letting this continue for so many years and putting us in this position. This is way beyond the final straw - the Dems are all responsible for getting us here by not rocking the bullshit party for too many years. This goes WAYYYYYYYYYYYYYYYYYYYY beyond this vote, this is for years and years of failure.

The Dems need to see themselves losing registered voters. I am going to urge all the Dems I know to switch to independent.

This goes way beyond one vote man. This is just a totally failed fucking party.

Well that's your choice.

I chose to send notes to my senators telling them Schumer should be replaced as minority leader ASAP.
 

MrSquished

Lifer
Jan 14, 2013
25,535
23,887
136
Well that's your choice.

I chose to send notes to my senators telling them Schumer should be replaced as minority leader ASAP.
I can still contact my representatives who I voted for and tell them to do the same. The D party is a failure. We just saw the nail in the coffin of how they let us get to this point with them.
 

nickqt

Diamond Member
Jan 15, 2015
7,987
8,690
136
There isn't an easy position to side with on this CR. You can make the argument that not funding the government is as damaging as funding the government given who is in charge of making cuts during a shutdown. Keeping the courts turned on given the court decisions so far, it makes not funding the government later more potent depending on if the judiciary is loyal to the Constitution, rather than the dictator-wannabe and his puppet, Trump.

That said, Democrats should have allowed the Republicans to default on the debt ceiling every single time they've make it a possibility. I don't give a shit about the consequences of a credit default if it means that this fantasy that Republicans are better for the economy meme gets shot in the fucking face once and for all. Every time the Republicans have held the credit hostage, Democrats should have refused to negotiate and let Republicans catch 100% of the blame for it.

That Democrats wouldn't stand up then is why they've been forced to stand up for a position that is kinda shit in and of itself.
 

K1052

Elite Member
Aug 21, 2003
50,911
42,729
136
There isn't an easy position to side with on this CR. You can make the argument that not funding the government is as damaging as funding the government given who is in charge of making cuts during a shutdown. Keeping the courts turned on given the court decisions so far, it makes not funding the government later more potent depending on if the judiciary is loyal to the Constitution, rather than the dictator-wannabe and his puppet, Trump.

Ultimately the argument was that if the shutdown happened Trump would mass fire federal workers, regardless of ultimate legality. Which is already somewhat happening anyway. Besides Vought is ticking off the boxes at OPM which will allow entirely legal RIFs in a few months of hundreds of thousands of government workers.

So from my perspective it boils down to the bad thing happening later with congressional approval or happening sooner without it. It is a difficult choice but saying you will not fund this lawlessness is the only real lever that congress has. The lever which a handful of Senate Democrats have decided to saw off.
 

K1052

Elite Member
Aug 21, 2003
50,911
42,729
136
TFW you think you haven't pissed off your own voters enough for one day.
It is like they are TRYING to create a liberal Tea Party

 

Franz316

Golden Member
Sep 12, 2000
1,020
538
136
Schumer after America goes full authoritarian with no social services.. "I mean, at least I maintained decorum. I did my best."
 

repoman0

Diamond Member
Jun 17, 2010
5,067
4,316
136
Schumer and co aren’t even necessarily wrong that a shutdown would be worse, don’t think anyone can say either way with certainty. But FFS at least get something in return for your 9 votes and pretend to fight for something rather than instantly roll over.
 

nickqt

Diamond Member
Jan 15, 2015
7,987
8,690
136
Ultimately the argument was that if the shutdown happened Trump would mass fire federal workers, regardless of ultimate legality. Which is already somewhat happening anyway. Besides Vought is ticking off the boxes at OPM which will allow entirely legal RIFs in a few months of hundreds of thousands of government workers.

So from my perspective it boils down to the bad thing happening later with congressional approval or happening sooner without it. It is a difficult choice but saying you will not fund this lawlessness is the only real lever that congress has. The lever which a handful of Senate Democrats have decided to saw off.
Right, neither position is clearly a winning position.

You can argue that not funding Trump and making Republicans either come back with a better offer or nuke the filibuster is "more" opposition than passing a CR. That's pretty clear. Yet, if firing as many government employees as possible is your goal, getting more powers to do just that while also turning off the courts that haven't been rolling over so far may or may not be the best play.

You can also argue that funding the government proves that Democrats are clueless and feckless or whatever. That's pretty clear. Yet, if trying to keep the government from being totally gutted instead of just decimated is your goal, preventing Musk from having more power to just lay off the entire federal workforce may or may not be the best play.

This whole thread is a symptom of the fact that the Democratic Party is a "Systems" party that isn't the inherently correct organization that can fight against a non-governmental organization like Project2025 that has assumed control of the government. And it never has been. You defeat a faux populist movement with an actual populist movement. Sanders and Warren were the clear options in 2016. AOC and...Sanders are still the clear options now. Right now, it seems pretty clear that Sanders is the leader of the opposition in the Senate and AOC is the leader of the opposition in the House. There are a sprinkling of Democratic governors who are leaders of the opposition in their own states, too. That's a start.

US Citizens will need to fight against fascism as individuals and as groups. The best you could expect from Democratic politicians who only know the system, is for them to teach non-system non-fascists how to work the system once the system is back in place. Schumer can only balance pros and cons and believe that using the system is ultimately a pro. That's what he's doing. Allowing the US to go into a shutdown now would be foisting upon individual US citizens the power of stopping fascism, and I don't think the average US citizen is there yet. People are still calling their elected representatives expecting some sort of opposition when Democrats have close to zero actual power at this point. How many of the people on these here forums still haven't exercised their second amendment RIGHT for whatever reason, and yet are expecting some House Member with zero power to be able to save them?

It's a tough call and I don't think either position the Democrats have boxed themselves into has a clearly "correct" side. Which side is worse? Only time will tell.

What has become clear is that the average voter choosing to remain harmless if ignored isn't making the situation any better. See my signature that I've been rocking for the past 4.5 years. Fascists don't care about your memes and your stickers and your jokes. They do care about your fucking fist knocking out their teeth.

You can be peaceful without being harmless. Exercise your rights. If you're just a harmless voter stuck leaving a message with your Rep's intern, don't expect that we're just going to walk out of this unscathed.
 
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ondma

Diamond Member
Mar 18, 2018
3,227
1,642
136
Schumer and co aren’t even necessarily wrong that a shutdown would be worse, don’t think anyone can say either way with certainty. But FFS at least get something in return for your 9 votes and pretend to fight for something rather than instantly roll over.
Yea, I dont think it is as simple as some of the more....enthusiastic members of this forum make it out to be. Bottom line is both options suck. I depend on CSRS and SS and my wife on SS, as do many other people, especially social security. And then there is medicare, medicaid and SSI as well as many other vital services. I am fortunate enough to have some savings, so I could last for a few months of not getting paid, but many could not. So I dont see shutting down the government as such an obvious choice. I mean, what can the Dems ultimately do? The Reps have the votes. How long can the country endure a shut down, and how does one expect the Dems to ever pass a more favorable budget. Perhaps the best they could do is block the CR and propose a more favorable one. That might convince the voters that the shutdown is the Reps fault. But considering how powerful the conservative media is and how inept the Dems are at delivering their message, IMO this could easily backfire, with the Dems getting the blame for the shutdown and eventually having to cave to the Rep budget anyway. Furthermore, during previous shutdowns, some essential services and payments continued during a "shutdown". I dont think with Trump in power we could depend on that. I would not put it past him to shut down the entire government, even essential services, by executive order.
 
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SMOGZINN

Lifer
Jun 17, 2005
14,259
4,499
136
Right, neither position is clearly a winning position.
Maybe not, but there is a clear losing position, and that is to give Trump's administration what amounts to a blank check to do what they want. That is what this CR does. It allows him to simple defund any agency he wishes. Then he can fire anyone he wants with the perfectly legal excuse that they don't have the funds to pay them. Once Congress gives him this power not even the courts will be able to stop it.

Not that it matters, they are ignoring the law already and just laying off whoever they want. It is not the law stopping them, but the logistics. As they figure out the logistics they are firing people, no matter what the law says.


problem is, there needs to be a viable replacement. otherwise, every democrat going independent just shatters the coalition and makes a republican win a guarantee
Does it matter if the Democrats just roll over and let the Republicans do whatever they want? The Do Nothing party is not a viable party already.
 

K1052

Elite Member
Aug 21, 2003
50,911
42,729
136
Yea, I dont think it is as simple as some of the more....enthusiastic members of this forum make it out to be. Bottom line is both options suck. I depend on CSRS and SS and my wife on SS, as do many other people, especially social security. And then there is medicare, medicaid and SSI as well as many other vital services. I am fortunate enough to have some savings, so I could last for a few months of not getting paid, but many could not. So I dont see shutting down the government as such an obvious choice. I mean, what can the Dems ultimately do? The Reps have the votes. How long can the country endure a shut down, and how does one expect the Dems to ever pass a more favorable budget. Perhaps the best they could do is block the CR and propose a more favorable one. That might convince the voters that the shutdown is the Reps fault. But considering how powerful the conservative media is and how inept the Dems are at delivering their message, IMO this could easily backfire, with the Dems getting the blame for the shutdown and eventually having to cave to the Rep budget anyway. Furthermore, during previous shutdowns, some essential services and payments continued during a "shutdown". I dont think with Trump in power we could depend on that. I would not put it past him to shut down the entire government, even essential services, by executive order.

SSI payments are mandatory spending and not impacted by a shutdown.
 

hal2kilo

Lifer
Feb 24, 2009
25,267
11,703
136
Maybe not, but there is a clear losing position, and that is to give Trump's administration what amounts to a blank check to do what they want. That is what this CR does. It allows him to simple defund any agency he wishes. Then he can fire anyone he wants with the perfectly legal excuse that they don't have the funds to pay them. Once Congress gives him this power not even the courts will be able to stop it.

Not that it matters, they are ignoring the law already and just laying off whoever they want. It is not the law stopping them, but the logistics. As they figure out the logistics they are firing people, no matter what the law says.



Does it matter if the Democrats just roll over and let the Republicans do whatever they want? The Do Nothing party is not a viable party already.
Since the Dems lost the majority in congress, should we jump up and down harder, scream louder, what exactly do you propose to do that would actually affect an outcome.
We get enough performance art from the other side. Shutting down the government just gives them ALL of the power to do even more damage. We've got to stay engaged in the game without pissing off people enough that they will definitely not vote they way you want. With what I see going on here it's like Gotnoeggs won.
 
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nickqt

Diamond Member
Jan 15, 2015
7,987
8,690
136
Maybe not, but there is a clear losing position, and that is to give Trump's administration what amounts to a blank check to do what they want. That is what this CR does. It allows him to simple defund any agency he wishes. Then he can fire anyone he wants with the perfectly legal excuse that they don't have the funds to pay them. Once Congress gives him this power not even the courts will be able to stop it.

Not that it matters, they are ignoring the law already and just laying off whoever they want. It is not the law stopping them, but the logistics. As they figure out the logistics they are firing people, no matter what the law says.



Does it matter if the Democrats just roll over and let the Republicans do whatever they want? The Do Nothing party is not a viable party already.
Right now the courts aren't rolling over on a lot of these clearly illegal reduction in forces actions. Maybe the Supreme Court does, but we won't know until we get there. We need the government turned on to get there. It's a Six vs. Half-a-Dozen argument for either side.

I guess I'm just saying that individuals need to start preparing, and calling your Congressperson isn't a part of that preparation. All they can do is work the system and that system doesn't operate during a shutdown.
 

MrSquished

Lifer
Jan 14, 2013
25,535
23,887
136
Polls showed the American Public was blaming the GQP more for a shutdown by far over the Dems.

The fucking Dems allowed this feckless leadership too much free reign for years, and now we are reaping all these failures.

The party needs to die fast.
 

MrSquished

Lifer
Jan 14, 2013
25,535
23,887
136
Brutal.





Schumer and the feckless ones are not some new thing, they are a long-term symptom of the severe failures in the Dem party. You wait too long to clean out the defectiveness, well, that's your own damn fault. Some of us saw this a million miles away, but nobody had the fucking balls to do shit.
 
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MrSquished

Lifer
Jan 14, 2013
25,535
23,887
136
This fucking pathetic stain and collaborator with the fascists. Assisted the fascists in passing a corrupt bill they wrote by themselves in order to benefit the trump agenda and nothing else.

Sickening. the ultimate culmination of years of democratic weakness and failures

 

JTsyo

Lifer
Nov 18, 2007
11,953
1,088
126
I'm not quite sure how the filibuster is currently working. Would a Democrat need to filibuster the CR to stop it or does the Senate need 60 votes even if no one is filibustering? I can't see how you wouldn't be blamed of the shutdown if you filibustered the CR.
 
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