Elon Musk now owns 9.2% of twitter...update.. will soon be the sole owner as Board of Directors accepts his purchase offer

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Brovane

Diamond Member
Dec 18, 2001
6,014
2,311
136
Asking people to babysit a computer is very different than operating a motor vehicle. Plus, Tesla literally calls it Full Self Driving. It's not labeled Supervised Driving. Hiding what's really required in legal fine print is bullshit.

It is labeled in the car Full Self-Driving (Supervised). You even have a screen that comes up when you enable it that you have to acknowledge that it is Full Self Driving (Supervised).




 

Brovane

Diamond Member
Dec 18, 2001
6,014
2,311
136
Yeah, actual definition of what it does and when. Clear parameters that users can understand and be able to expect how the system is going to react. This is radically different from how Tesla markets FSD.

You having learned when the version of Tesla FSD that is currently installed on your car may freak out on your regular journey is entertaining but ultimately not helpful because of the frequent updates. Yes one situation may be corrected but a new issue can be introduced that you're not expecting

That really hasn't been my experience with owning the car. However you are welcome to your opinion.
 

Brovane

Diamond Member
Dec 18, 2001
6,014
2,311
136
You can't call it full self driving if you say it's opposite day in parentheses. It's either Full Self Driving or it's not.

You said it wasn't labeled Supervised driving. It is clearly labeled Supervised driving regardless of the fact that a parentheses offends you.

I will tell you what I tell MAGA supporters that get upset when I point out facts that they don't like. You are entitled to your opinion but not your own set of facts.
 
Dec 10, 2005
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You said it wasn't labeled Supervised driving. It is clearly labeled Supervised driving regardless of the fact that a parentheses offends you.

I will tell you what I tell MAGA supporters that get upset when I point out facts that they don't like. You are entitled to your opinion but not your own set of facts.
And as someone pointed out, adding "supervised" was a relatively recent change. It's a BS way to try and limit Tesla's liability for people using the system.

And it doesn't change the fact that they still call it "Full Self Driving". Apparently, words mean fuck all.
 

thilanliyan

Lifer
Jun 21, 2005
11,992
2,212
126
What real world scenario are you anticipating a painted road would be on a wall across a road? Just seems weird to me that people think that this is a data point beyond just driving Youtube views.
Of course it's an extreme example, but highlights what cameras are not good at. As I said, that was easily picked up by radar/lidar and pretty much any human could have picked it up easily.
How is performance at night? Or in pitch black country roads where headlights only reach so far?
 

Fenixgoon

Lifer
Jun 30, 2003
32,788
12,023
136
What real world scenario are you anticipating a painted road would be on a wall across a road? Just seems weird to me that people think that this is a data point beyond just driving Youtube views.
It's not about encountering painted roads like a looney toons cartoon. It's about the systems overall ability to assess a fake scenario that a human would easily detect, and that competing systems also easily detect.

It failed miserably

Stress testing systems is an important part of any sort of "product safety", and a failure in the test should be taken as an imperative to improve, rather than a push for justification of unsatisfactory performance
 

Paratus

Lifer
Jun 4, 2004
17,383
15,199
146
I don't know about the hatred for Lidar, but he does have a massive superiority complex, i.e. my way or the highway. He will never move away from a camera-only system because he says that you only need cameras, period, end of story. Same as his belief that the best way to test rockets is to launch them knowing that there's a very good chance of catastrophic failure. During the Apollo days, we weren't constantly launching rockets, having them explode, and calling it a success. There's no way in hell he'll admit to major failure nor to his ideas being incorrect.
I’m going to poke on the launching rockets with a chance to blow up.

There are hardware rich programs and hardware poor programs. SLS is a hardware poor program. We’ve launched one successful flight in almost 20 years at the cost of ~ $24B. SLS cannot afford to fail since their are so few engines, tanks, etc and each one costs so much to manufacture.

Starship is hardware rich and has launched eight times although without full success. It was announced in 2012 and has cost $5B-$10B.

The Apollo era Saturn V program cost $256B in current dollars and launched over 30 rockets of various versions of the Saturn rocket without failure over its ~14 year programatic life.

Hardware rich programs let you iterate design a lot faster than hardware poor programs at potentially lower cost. That leads to accepting rocket losses during the testing cycles. It’s not a bad programatic decision.

If you want to develop fast and not lose a rocket then you are looking to pay 10-25X more than either of the current programs.
Another example of "Elon always knows best" syndrome.

View attachment 120218
This however is an example of hubris. This end result was entirely foreseeable and not one that required a test to prove.
 
Reactions: Racan and Fenixgoon
Dec 10, 2005
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Hardware rich programs let you iterate design a lot faster than hardware poor programs at potentially lower cost. That leads to accepting rocket losses during the testing cycles. It’s not a bad programatic decision.
Not a rocket engineer, but I would think that iterative design probably requires more than a single month between failed launches.
 
Reactions: Brovane
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All depends on what the design changes are, and how quickly your supply and manufacturing chains can react.
Yes, but you're telling me SpaceX fully analyzed what went wrong and swapped out the necessary components in under a month? Seems a little unbelievable.
 

Brovane

Diamond Member
Dec 18, 2001
6,014
2,311
136
Of course it's an extreme example, but highlights what cameras are not good at. As I said, that was easily picked up by radar/lidar and pretty much any human could have picked it up easily.
How is performance at night? Or in pitch black country roads where headlights only reach so far?

In my opinion it performs really well at night. As I have gotten older I have had more difficulty driving at night with the bright headlights. Auto-Pilot works really well on freeways at night the car just navigates itself and changes lanes when necessary and navigates through interchanges. Sometimes it makes lane changes or decisions that might not be what I would do but I just let it go now and do it's thing. There is 3 modes to drive FSD chill, standard and Hurry and I just leave it in standard mode and it does really well usually tries to keep it around 70-75 mph for the freeway conditions. There was one incident late last year after I just had gotten a big update. The stack had been upgraded and I was driving home on the freeway at night. There was 4 lanes and cars where driving in the #1 and #2 lane slowly for the conditions. Before the update the car would have gotten stuck and just stayed behind the slower driving cars unless I manually intervened. This time the car could see the #3 lane was open and passed using the #3 lane the slower cars and then moved back over to the #2 lane. As I watched (Supervised ) the car driving and what it did I was absolutely impressed how it made such a human driving decision in order to get past the slower moving track. The last 2 miles to my house is up a winding road with no streetlights. The car does fine, the only place I intervene is when I reach the private access road about 1/4 mile to my house and road surface goes from asphalt to gravel, I don't like how fast the car drives on gravel. I try to keep it around 15 mph and it wants to do 25 mph. I have allowed the system to drive it before, it navigates on gravel fine I am just not comfortable with the speed so I turn it off since I am so close to home.
 

Paratus

Lifer
Jun 4, 2004
17,383
15,199
146
Not a rocket engineer, but I would think that iterative design probably requires more than a single month between failed launches.
Potentially, but not always. You can already have multiple flights in work with different designs, updates or fixes.

The problem that took out flight 7 might have had an easy fix for flight 8 but it turned out that wasn’t actually the problem, the entire problem or implemented correctly, leading to loss of the next mission.

If you think the problem was engine design v3 on flight 7 and you’ve got engine design v4 scheduled next month on flight 8 maybe you do fly as a test and spend your analysis time elsewhere.

(I have no direct insight into Starship)

Two similar catastrophic failures in a row would be a reason to slow down however in my book.
 

Brovane

Diamond Member
Dec 18, 2001
6,014
2,311
136
Yes, but you're telling me SpaceX fully analyzed what went wrong and swapped out the necessary components in under a month? Seems a little unbelievable.

They didn't. SpaceX implemented a kludge fix between flight 7 and 8 and hoped that would be enough and it wasn't. From what I have read, SpaceX engineers are pushing for a full redesign of the aft end of Starship and guess who doesn't want to wait? So Elmo is pushing them to implement another kludge fix to the current built hardware while they implement a full redesign and then bring those changes into the new builds. All of this is made more difficult in that they don't have a test stand for the upper stage of Starship that allows full duration static fires. Not to mention that upper stage testing is always a bit difficult because the environment it is flying in is completely different than the environment at the test stand. So yeah, you have the most massive upper stage for a rocket ever built possibly going to explode over the Gulf of Mexico again during flight-9. What could go wrong?
 
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