cytg111

Lifer
Mar 17, 2008
25,084
14,583
136
I cant help but ponder if we're not scanning the skies with tachyon radars and shooting shit down with lasers in 20 years effectively making "tanks in the skies" a relic of warfare past. Shrugs.
 

FelixDeCat

Lifer
Aug 4, 2000
30,408
2,531
126
Wake me up in the 2030s for the project delays, cost overruns and projected price increase of 200%.
 

pauldun170

Diamond Member
Sep 26, 2011
9,237
5,257
136
I have to admit that article was painful to read and I personally disagree that it's a good read.

That program is an Obama era program and by looks of it, it was pretty well executed.

Note: The comments about the F35 readiness is misleading. It's readiness went down, much like most platforms did last year due to logistics issues. F15s, Hornets and others saw readiness tank as well.
 

K1052

Elite Member
Aug 21, 2003
50,833
42,571
136
I'm just personally very amused that somebody got him to approve Boeing's bid when the VC-25B is so far behind schedule that he'll never get to ride it and there was an entire presidency between the contract award which wasn't his lol.
 
Reactions: hal2kilo

pauldun170

Diamond Member
Sep 26, 2011
9,237
5,257
136
I'm just personally very amused that somebody got him to approve Boeing's bid when the VC-25B is so far behind schedule that he'll never get to ride it and there was an entire presidency between the contract award which wasn't his lol.

Trump and Hegsdope most likely had little influence over the decision.

Boeing may have its issues with its commercials planes, but it's been building F15s and Superhornets for years now and the F47 is the result of multiple aircraft from multiple companies.
Lockheed effectively dropped out last year (they'll be focusing on f35s) and Northrop grumman can now focus on the new b21 raider.
 

K1052

Elite Member
Aug 21, 2003
50,833
42,571
136
Trump and Hegsdope most likely had little influence over the decision.

Boeing may have its issues with its commercials planes, but it's been building F15s and Superhornets for years now and the F47 is the result of multiple aircraft from multiple companies.
Lockheed effectively dropped out last year (they'll be focusing on f35s) and Northrop grumman can now focus on the new b21 raider.

Yes, Boeing is certainly building planes that McDonnell Douglas did all the hard work on. I'm not sure that really inspires a lot of confidence in their ability to develop and produce a clean sheet fighter.
 
Reactions: hal2kilo

Oric

Senior member
Oct 11, 1999
951
94
91
So this is the new plane for USAF ? No other nation (sans Israel) will likely order one
 

pauldun170

Diamond Member
Sep 26, 2011
9,237
5,257
136
Yes, Boeing is certainly building planes that McDonnell Douglas did all the hard work on. I'm not sure that really inspires a lot of confidence in their ability to develop and produce a clean sheet fighter.

Let's see if the final design kind of looks like a mash up of


Plus
 

pauldun170

Diamond Member
Sep 26, 2011
9,237
5,257
136
So this is the new plane for USAF ? No other nation (sans Israel) will likely order one

It's supposed to be US only (despite Trumps rambling)
This is one of 2 fighter programs that originated from 2014.
The one just announced is for the US airforce.
The navy has its own program called FA/xx that is leveraging the airforce program.
Both are tied with a new fighter engine that is just a big a deal in terms of what it offers.

Internationally,
The UK, Japan and Italy are working together on a comparable program.

France and Germany are also working together on one.
 

JTsyo

Lifer
Nov 18, 2007
11,947
1,082
126
We don't share the F-22 so if this is meant to replace it as the air superiority fight, I doubt it will be available for export.
 

pauldun170

Diamond Member
Sep 26, 2011
9,237
5,257
136
We don't share the F-22 so if this is meant to replace it as the air superiority fight, I doubt it will be available for export.
Based on the direction the us is headed, I wouldn't advise anyone to buy it.

There is still breathing room to see if the French or brits pull something out of their hat.
 

fskimospy

Elite Member
Mar 10, 2006
86,965
53,156
136
Based on the direction the us is headed, I wouldn't advise anyone to buy it.

There is still breathing room to see if the French or brits pull something out of their hat.
Nobody is buying US weapons any time soon if they can avoid it without getting some mechanism to supply themselves in case the US decides to renege on the agreement.

I'm not sure the public fully appreciates just how bad this is for the US. It's going to come back on us EVERYWHERE. Every request, every deal, every discussion will come with the US having to explain how we can be trusted.
 

gorobei

Diamond Member
Jan 7, 2007
3,887
1,373
136
the article is 3x to 4x longer than it needs to be. way to much rambling about "macho" whatever and redundant repetitions without defining some terms or ideas.

the point about turdump trying to take credit for it as "good news" to drown out them tanking the economy is relevant.
the distraction from elmo trying to shift contracts to tesla without a full bid process is fair
the control surface-less demonstrator was nice as i havent seen many pictures of it come up.

the big question is whether this is the actual 6th gen NGAD or the tech demonstrator that was finished years ago. the usaf NGAD was supposedly on the chopping block as the future conflict planning teams werent seeing a need for it.

if the conflict is taking out chinese fleets or missile launchers on the coast attacking taiwan, the b21 would play a bigger role if next gen agm projects worked out. at the extreme ranges neither plaaf or nato fighters would be doing much as they wouldnt have the range to fly out far enough to intercept the b-21 before it reached launch range. nato fighters wouldnt have enough range to conduct SEAD or enforce air superiority.

if this is the tech/manufacturing demonstrator that flew years ago to get the greenlight for serial production just being rolled out as a dog and pony show to get a win for the PR, then yeah you can call some southpark shenanigans.

the USAF should probably keep pursuing the ngad because if you dont build it you lose the personnel and institutional knowledge to build a 7th gen when they all move to a new job/company. and you cant get that back without a massive cost far higher than the eventual cost overrun contract of building the 6th gen. supposedly the usaf learned from the f35 failed lockheed promises of concurrency and were targeting cheaper off the shelf solutions.
the problem is if this is a pr stunt and they admin/congress just underfunds it until it dies then it will damage the usaf and foreign relations for decades.

the bit about china catching up by putting out a aliexpress 6th gen is a different matter. we have no idea of what stage the 3 engined quasi-bomber that flew was at. was it a tech demonstrator, prototype, production pipeline test, or just an engine test? if this is just fear mongering a red threat to get funding for the ngad, then this has been going on since the coldwar. the mig25 either accidentally scared the usaf into building the f-15 (fighter with the best combat record ever) or the imagined thread of it allowed congress to fund the f-15 program during some rough years.

on boeing, it was the aquisition of mdd that led to the downfall of the boeing commercial division. the aquired mdd execs were somehow the one promoted when the original good boeing c-suite retired. their cost cutting an other moves are what led to the decline in quality on the jumbos.

as for the f-22. back in the 90's some senator got an act passed restricting the f-22 sales because the intel reports congress was getting was that a ton of our classifed fighter tech was showing up in adversary hands. f-16 was sold to just about everyone and clearly some "ally" lost one in laundry(or isreal handed over way too much of the lavi program materials than they should have). that sale restriction drove up the cost of the f-22 program but it also set back russian and chinese 5th gen programs by decades. the f-35 is out there so eventually some of the tech will disperse, so having a gen that isnt sold to even good allies isnt such a bad thing.
 

pauldun170

Diamond Member
Sep 26, 2011
9,237
5,257
136
the article is 3x to 4x longer than it needs to be. way to much rambling about "macho" whatever and redundant repetitions without defining some terms or ideas.

the point about turdump trying to take credit for it as "good news" to drown out them tanking the economy is relevant.
the distraction from elmo trying to shift contracts to tesla without a full bid process is fair
the control surface-less demonstrator was nice as i havent seen many pictures of it come up.

the big question is whether this is the actual 6th gen NGAD or the tech demonstrator that was finished years ago. the usaf NGAD was supposedly on the chopping block as the future conflict planning teams werent seeing a need for it.

if the conflict is taking out chinese fleets or missile launchers on the coast attacking taiwan, the b21 would play a bigger role if next gen agm projects worked out. at the extreme ranges neither plaaf or nato fighters would be doing much as they wouldnt have the range to fly out far enough to intercept the b-21 before it reached launch range. nato fighters wouldnt have enough range to conduct SEAD or enforce air superiority.

if this is the tech/manufacturing demonstrator that flew years ago to get the greenlight for serial production just being rolled out as a dog and pony show to get a win for the PR, then yeah you can call some southpark shenanigans.

the USAF should probably keep pursuing the ngad because if you dont build it you lose the personnel and institutional knowledge to build a 7th gen when they all move to a new job/company. and you cant get that back without a massive cost far higher than the eventual cost overrun contract of building the 6th gen. supposedly the usaf learned from the f35 failed lockheed promises of concurrency and were targeting cheaper off the shelf solutions.
the problem is if this is a pr stunt and they admin/congress just underfunds it until it dies then it will damage the usaf and foreign relations for decades.

the bit about china catching up by putting out a aliexpress 6th gen is a different matter. we have no idea of what stage the 3 engined quasi-bomber that flew was at. was it a tech demonstrator, prototype, production pipeline test, or just an engine test? if this is just fear mongering a red threat to get funding for the ngad, then this has been going on since the coldwar. the mig25 either accidentally scared the usaf into building the f-15 (fighter with the best combat record ever) or the imagined thread of it allowed congress to fund the f-15 program during some rough years.

on boeing, it was the aquisition of mdd that led to the downfall of the boeing commercial division. the aquired mdd execs were somehow the one promoted when the original good boeing c-suite retired. their cost cutting an other moves are what led to the decline in quality on the jumbos.

as for the f-22. back in the 90's some senator got an act passed restricting the f-22 sales because the intel reports congress was getting was that a ton of our classifed fighter tech was showing up in adversary hands. f-16 was sold to just about everyone and clearly some "ally" lost one in laundry(or isreal handed over way too much of the lavi program materials than they should have). that sale restriction drove up the cost of the f-22 program but it also set back russian and chinese 5th gen programs by decades. the f-35 is out there so eventually some of the tech will disperse, so having a gen that isnt sold to even good allies isnt such a bad thing.

Navys Fa/xx selection is rumored to be in few days.
Perhaps northrop/grumman might nab that one.

I'm actually a bit confident that they got things right on this program considering lessons learned from the f35 and the overall decent job on the b21
 
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