8GB VRAM not enough (and 10 / 12)

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BFG10K

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8GB
Horizon Forbidden West 3060 is faster than the 2080 Super despite the former usually competing with the 2070. Also 3060 has a better 1% low than 4060 and 4060Ti 8GB.
Resident Evil Village 3060TI/3070 tanks at 4K and is slower than the 3060/6700XT when ray tracing:
Company Of Heroes 3060 has a higher minimum than the 3070TI:

10GB / 12GB

Reasons why still shipping 8GB since 2014 isn't NV's fault.
  1. It's the player's fault.
  2. It's the reviewer's fault.
  3. It's the developer's fault.
  4. It's AMD's fault.
  5. It's the game's fault.
  6. It's the driver's fault.
  7. It's a system configuration issue.
  8. Wrong settings were tested.
  9. Wrong area was tested.
  10. Wrong games were tested.
  11. 4K is irrelevant.
  12. Texture quality is irrelevant as long as it matches a console's.
  13. Detail levels are irrelevant as long as they match a console's.
  14. There's no reason a game should use more than 8GB, because a random forum user said so.
  15. It's completely acceptable for the more expensive 3070/3070TI/3080 to turn down settings while the cheaper 3060/6700XT has no issue.
  16. It's an anomaly.
  17. It's a console port.
  18. It's a conspiracy against NV.
  19. 8GB cards aren't meant for 4K / 1440p / 1080p / 720p gaming.
  20. It's completely acceptable to disable ray tracing on NV while AMD has no issue.
  21. Polls, hardware market share, and game title count are evidence 8GB is enough, but are totally ignored when they don't suit the ray tracing agenda.
According to some people here, 8GB is neeeevaaaaah NV's fault and objective evidence "doesn't count" because of reasons(tm). If you have others please let me know and I'll add them to the list. Cheers!
 
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Mopetar

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That is an interesting idea. I think the main impediment is that you need space on the card to plug such a drive into and most GPUs are covered in coolers and backplates leaving little room. Maybe there'd be room along the top of the card to attach some kind of module.

VRAM wouldn't really work. Part of the reason it's fast is that it's soldered. A socket really limits the transfer speed. However, something that's designed to be effectively read-only by the GPU while gaming could still work and it would be faster if it's on the GPU compared to having to go over the PCIe bus.

Having storage like that which the GPU could stream data from could offer some interesting possibilities. It works well if you play a small set of games and can store the complete texture data on the drive, but for anyone who rotates between a lot of games they'd need a large drive or would need to wait for the data to be transferred.

I think the only problem with it is that it would create an excuse to skimp on VRAM and require consumers to fork over another $100 minimum just to get acceptable performance.
 
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GTracing

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Mopetar said:
That is an interesting idea. I think the main impediment is that you need space on the card to plug such a drive into and most GPUs are covered in coolers and backplates leaving little room. Maybe there'd be room along the top of the card to attach some kind of module.

VRAM wouldn't really work. Part of the reason it's fast is that it's soldered. A socket really limits the transfer speed. However, something that's designed to be effectively read-only by the GPU while gaming could still work and it would be faster if it's on the GPU compared to having to go over the PCIe bus.

Having storage like that which the GPU could stream data from could offer some interesting possibilities. It works well if you play a small set of games and can store the complete texture data on the drive, but for anyone who rotates between a lot of games they'd need a large drive or would need to wait for the data to be transferred.

I think the only problem with it is that it would create an excuse to skimp on VRAM and require consumers to fork over another $100 minimum just to get acceptable performance.
Click to expand...
AMD did make a card with an SSD on it. https://www.anandtech.com/show/11968/now-shipping-radeon-pro-wx-9100-and-ssg-with-new-drivers
 
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psolord

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igor_kavinski said:
Reposting a lovely example of using the wrong "settings":

View attachment 117729

If only the moronic reviewer had used the 4060 the way it was meant to be used. How else can anyone explain a card with less RAM bandwidth and lower GPU frequency from two generations ago, beating the 4060 to a pulp? It can't be anything else other than the wrong settings used, can it? (imagine an orangutan scratching its head)
Click to expand...
This is once again, academic at best.

8GB cards can run Indiana Jones just fine and YES, you do need correct settings, which DO NOT mean ugly settings.

Here are two of my Indiana Jones very lengthy runs, on two of my 8GB cards. 3060ti and rx6600. Both 8GB, vastly different result, still playable still not ugly for both. (non monetized)



 
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psolord

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igor_kavinski

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psolord said:
Nobody gets a 5070 for native 4K, get real please.
Click to expand...
It shows a sad lack of progress by your favorite company. There is no reason a two gen old card should be beating the 5070.

What kind of message does this send to the 3090 owners? KEEP YOUR CARD!

Why is it so hard for you to admit that Nvidia is out to deprive gullible gamers of their hard earned money by giving them less than they deserve?

You have to come clean. How much Nvidia stock do you own? If you clearly say in your sig that you are a proud Nvidia shill, I have no problem with your shameless promotion of overpriced Nvidia cards.
 
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blckgrffn

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psolord said:
This is once again, academic at best.

8GB cards can run Indiana Jones just fine and YES, you do need correct settings, which DO NOT mean ugly settings.

Here are two of my Indiana Jones very lengthy runs, on two of my 8GB cards. 3060ti and rx6600. Both 8GB, vastly different result, still playable still not ugly for both. (non monetized)



Click to expand...
Haha, not mad to see you sticking to the bit here.

But these 1080p and not 2k/1440p results so they don’t interest me, personally. How’s it run at that resolution?
 
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Mopetar

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psolord said:
This is once again, academic at best.
Click to expand...

I'm not sure if you understand the meaning of the word. It's an actual game with settings that a user could easily run. Or is the 4060 a 720p card? What part of running a game at 1080p on a mid-range card is academic?

8GB cards can run Indiana Jones just fine and YES, you do need correct settings, which DO NOT mean ugly settings.
Click to expand...

Congratulations for ignoring the entire point of this thread once again. Putting aside the subjectivity of what constitutes ugly, no one has ever claimed that you can't find some settings at which the game will run.

Please explain why both a 3060 and even a 2060 can run the game and get over 45 FPS on average while a 4060 struggles to get half as much. Is it a driver issue or something, because there must be some reason the newest generation card has worse performance.

Also would you care to make a wager as to whether the 5060 will perform better than the 2060 or 3060 when it comes out? I mean you'd think it would, it being a new generation card, unless there were driver problems or something like that. Maybe it'll have missing ROPs or something. Come to think of it, did anyone check if the 4060 is missing ROPs. Perhaps that explains the confusingly poor performance of the card.

Whatever could the problem be? Maybe some academics could assemble a team of their best minds to work it out.
 
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Ranulf

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The cpu usage on both systems and the power usage for cpu and gpu are rather interesting. The 4770 seems to be holding its own compared to the 8600 but both cpu's dont seem to top out at more than 50% usage in the first few minutes. GPU power is amusing in that the 6600 card was holding at 100w power usage throughout the first 5 or so minutes I watched, the 3060ti hit 165w at one point at the river scene with the gun and whip interaction.
 
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blckgrffn

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Ranulf said:
The cpu usage on both systems and the power usage for cpu and gpu are rather interesting. The 4770 seems to be holding its own compared to the 8600 but both cpu's dont seem to top out at more than 50% usage in the first few minutes. GPU power is amusing in that the 6600 card was holding at 100w power usage throughout the first 5 or so minutes I watched, the 3060ti hit 165w at one point at the river scene with the gun and whip interaction.
Click to expand...
It’s weird, right? Like a piece of the puzzle is missing. If only the system had more of some resource, all of the other components stand ready to play it The Way It Was Meant To Be Played.

Mysterious.
 
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psolord

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igor_kavinski said:
It shows a sad lack of progress by your favorite company. There is no reason a two gen old card should be beating the 5070.

What kind of message does this send to the 3090 owners? KEEP YOUR CARD!

Why is it so hard for you to admit that Nvidia is out to deprive gullible gamers of their hard earned money by giving them less than they deserve?

You have to come clean. How much Nvidia stock do you own? If you clearly say in your sig that you are a proud Nvidia shill, I have no problem with your shameless promotion of overpriced Nvidia cards.
Click to expand...
First of all, I have said numerous times, that my argumentative stance in this thread, has nothing to do with nvidia supporting. Or AMD or Intel. I don't give an F for either and I just want to get my business done. And I do.

Also I just got a 9070. After all the crap nvidia has pulled the past few months, along with the excellent power draw/perf of the 9070, plus FSR4, I would be crazy not to. And the 9070 is meant to upgrade my 3060ti system, not the 4070ti one. I just wanted two equals. Which will also serve to do some performance/vram studies of 4070ti vs 9070.

With that out of the way, the 4k RT example you posted above came from here

NVIDIA GeForce RTX 5070 Founders Edition Review

NVIDIA's GeForce RTX 5070 comes at highly competitive pricing of $550 yet offers performance that rivals the much more expensive RTX 4070 Ti. In our review we found out that overclocking works extremely well on these cards and you'll be able to push it to the next tier with just some quick OC.
www.techpowerup.com

So let's see some of the results of the 3090.

Alan Wake 2 = 25f.7ps
Cyberpunk 2077 = 22.3fps
Elden Ring = 40.6fps
F1 2024 = 45.8 fps
Hogwarts Legacy = 30.8fps
Ratchet & Clank = 41.1fps
Silent Hill 2 = 26.3 fps

So who gives a flying F? Do you think a gamer of a 3090 tier, aspires to play like this?

So the 24GBs of the 3090 can do jack nothing, to make it real life playable, over a 12GB 5070. However, proper settings, will make it proper playable, as they will the 5070.
 
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psolord

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blckgrffn said:
Haha, not mad to see you sticking to the bit here.

But these 1080p and not 2k/1440p results so they don’t interest me, personally. How’s it run at that resolution?
Click to expand...
The above 3060ti run, was done without a hardware upscaler but I did use the game's dynamic resolution. Seeing how it uses TAA, if the resolution would be getting really low, the image would be atrocious. However it isn't, therefore it sticks pretty close to 1080p.

For higher resolutions, the solution is easy. DLSS. As has been noted, the card runs at 165W or less. Up to its 220W max power draw, it has quite some leeway still. I don't see why it wouldn't be able to do 1440p dlss.
 
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psolord

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Mopetar said:
I'm not sure if you understand the meaning of the word. It's an actual game with settings that a user could easily run. Or is the 4060 a 720p card? What part of running a game at 1080p on a mid-range card is academic?
Click to expand...
Well English is not my primary tongue, but according to google:


not of practical relevance; of only theoretical interest.
Click to expand...

And that's what most of the examples shown here are.

Mopetar said:
Congratulations for ignoring the entire point of this thread once again. Putting aside the subjectivity of what constitutes ugly, no one has ever claimed that you can't find some settings at which the game will run.

Please explain why both a 3060 and even a 2060 can run the game and get over 45 FPS on average while a 4060 struggles to get half as much. Is it a driver issue or something, because there must be some reason the newest generation card has worse performance.
Click to expand...
The entire point of this thread, was to show how bad the 8GB cards would be and I am actually showing you, how they are not.

It's not subjective to use a medium texture POOL SIZE, which does not affect texture quality, in order to not make your gaming experience fail.

If you ask me straight, if the 3060ti had 16GBs, would it be able to cope with a higher pool size, the answer would be yes of course. But does it really matter, in terms of what you are experiencing? No it does not.

In the same light, the 4060 having only a 7% performance delta with the 3060ti, would be able to do the exact same thing I am showing above. It does not have a real life problem. It is....academic.

Mopetar said:
Also would you care to make a wager as to whether the 5060 will perform better than the 2060 or 3060 when it comes out? I mean you'd think it would, it being a new generation card, unless there were driver problems or something like that. Maybe it'll have missing ROPs or something. Come to think of it, did anyone check if the 4060 is missing ROPs. Perhaps that explains the confusingly poor performance of the card.

Whatever could the problem be? Maybe some academics could assemble a team of their best minds to work it out.
Click to expand...
No academics needed. The 5060 will be one of the same. It will be a much stronger card than the 3060, which will face some vram problems if you push it. If you have a 1080p monitor and want to play Indiana Jones, you can use Ultra preset with medium pool size and it will be much faster than the 3060 will ever be. Nobody aspires to play at 45fps, in order to make the 3060 "acceptable" or "better" than its 8GB counterparts.
 
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psolord

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Ranulf said:
The cpu usage on both systems and the power usage for cpu and gpu are rather interesting. The 4770 seems to be holding its own compared to the 8600 but both cpu's dont seem to top out at more than 50% usage in the first few minutes. GPU power is amusing in that the 6600 card was holding at 100w power usage throughout the first 5 or so minutes I watched, the 3060ti hit 165w at one point at the river scene with the gun and whip interaction.
Click to expand...
Finally someone that pays attention!

These are capped runs at 60fps, as most of my runs, because I aim mostly for smoothness. What is shown here, is that an 8GB card like the 6600, can do 1080p/high with a couple of framedrops here and there, while another 8GB card, can do 1080p/ultra with almost no framedrops. Moreover, the first 8GB card, is maxed at 100W, because that's what it was made to do, while the other card maxed at 165W while having another 60W to spare. On top of that, the second card has the additional option to use a very decent hardware upscaler, in order to punch above its weight, if need be.

So that's why you are paying 400$ for the better 8GB card and only 200$ for the less good 8GB card, and that's what I am also trying to explain here.
 
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Ranulf

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psolord said:
Finally someone that pays attention!

These are capped runs at 60fps, as most of my runs, because I aim mostly for smoothness. What is shown here, is that an 8GB card like the 6600, can do 1080p/high with a couple of framedrops here and there, while another 8GB card, can do 1080p/ultra with almost no framedrops. Moreover, the first 8GB card, is maxed at 100W, because that's what it was made to do, while the other card maxed at 165W while having another 60W to spare. On top of that, the second card has the additional option to use a very decent hardware upscaler, in order to punch above its weight, if need be.

So that's why you are paying 400$ for the better 8GB card and only 200$ for the less good 8GB card, and that's what I am also trying to explain here.
Click to expand...

I don't think the $200 difference is going to help the price/perf argument or power efficiency argument.
 
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blckgrffn

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psolord said:
The above 3060ti run, was done without a hardware upscaler but I did use the game's dynamic resolution. Seeing how it uses TAA, if the resolution would be getting really low, the image would be atrocious. However it isn't, therefore it sticks pretty close to 1080p.

For higher resolutions, the solution is easy. DLSS. As has been noted, the card runs at 165W or less. Up to its 220W max power draw, it has quite some leeway still. I don't see why it wouldn't be able to do 1440p dlss.
Click to expand...
Wait, what?

So it has the "concept" of 1080p but isn't actually running at 1080p? And its OK to list this as 1080p performance because you subjectively think it's probably "pretty close"?

And you keep saying how these cards are running 1080p high/ultra settings when... they aren't.

That's disingenuous, man.

Maybe I missed the asterisk, but when the text with the video is "hey, look at how these do at 1080p" I am expecting the game to be set to 1080p, not just the monitor resolution to be set to 1080p.
 
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Mopetar

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psolord said:
Well English is not my primary tongue, but according to google . . .
And that's what most of the examples shown here are.
Click to expand...

I think your comprehension is failing. In what way is it academic for a 3060 owner to run a new game at 1080p and maximum settings? The specific example which you made your response to seems like a very practical setting and one at which playable frame rates are achievable. I would not be at all surprised to find that most 3060 owners use those exact settings. In other words, not at all academic.

The entire point of this thread, was to show how bad the 8GB cards would be and I am actually showing you, how they are not.
Click to expand...

Well you're failing at that as well for reasons that similarly seem beyond your grasp or more likely that you just refuse to understand.

Explain to me why a 3060 and even a 2060 can run a new game at 1080p and achieve better frame rates? That should never happen. A newer product should not perform worse than an older one from the last generation, much less one from two generations prior.

No one disputes that you can turn down the visual settings to increase the frame rate, but that's typically something you have to do on an older card to extend the life of it. The problem is that you shouldn't have to do that with a newer card when the same model of card from several years ago can still run the game fine.

Once again the problem with your argument is that it's entirely subjective. No one actually needs a discrete GPU because with correct settings you could run the game on the iGPU. That's how asinine your argument is because you have no better justification for why your settings are correct than anyone else does.

This is like claiming that after drinking the correct number of beers the troglodyte at the other end of the bar will be pretty. Or you could buy an appropriate amount of VRAM so you don't wake up tomorrow and realize what a terrible mistake you made.
 
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igor_kavinski

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coercitiv said:
The 5060 Ti would be an... academic purchase at best. 🔬
Click to expand...
He won't be able to resist.

64-bit CUDA
Neural rendering
Day One support of any new features
Longer driver support
Fealty to King Jensen
The chance that Jensen touched this card with his unprotected fingers after licking them clean of the Denny's Bites he just had.

I can't come up with more compelling reasons without mind melding with Psolord or Jensen but I don't want to risk permanent brain damage.
 
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