Tour helicopter with 6 aboard crashes in Hudson River

Page 2 - Seeking answers? Join the AnandTech community: where nearly half-a-million members share solutions and discuss the latest tech.

skyking

Lifer
Nov 21, 2001
22,611
5,714
146
Helicopters have very rigorous component overhaul schedules, when compared to fixed wing aircraft. The various rotating components went through extensive testing at cerification and they adust those component life times with ongoing fleet experience.
Regardless of how horrific and unsurvivable this accident was, know that it was also extremely rare. Main rotor failures for whatever reason account for very few failures per flight hour.
Tail rotor failures are more common, and they can be controlled to a landing without a tailrotor functioning., providing they are out of the critical flight phases.
As a fixed wing pilot I am not too keen on helicopters and had my own bad experience in one, but it was solidly pilot error, as is the vast majority of accidents and fatalities.
It was a close call but that is an understatement. Flying unintentional close formation on short final is a bit unnerving.

@Amol S. that thud was sickening. It was clear there were no survivors, at least to me.
 
Last edited:
Dec 10, 2005
27,403
11,660
136
What I find quite interesting with that image is that people saw it, and just continued walking on. No one running to the scene and jumping into the water to see if they could save someone.
Why would random people be running in and then potentially putting themselves in danger?
 
Reactions: DAPUNISHER

DAPUNISHER

Super Moderator CPU Forum Mod and Elite Member
Super Moderator
Aug 22, 2001
31,014
29,039
146
A couple of commenters from that video -

This response is what I thinking was part of the problem. It tracks with what I know about other tourists services ,as I know captains of charter boats, airboats, and parasailing.
I am now a retired A&P mechanic, I once as a necessity took a job at a private touring company, I lasted all two weeks. They take short cuts, they push part hours way past their service limits. For those of you who may not know aviation parts are measured by flight hours, not mileage like a car. I will never take a tourist flight of any type, how do the pilots do it I'l never know. One of the many reasons I resigned was when they hired an unlicensed guy who was previously working at an auto parts store, and wanted me to sign off on his "work". This accident I assure you was no accident, greed played a part in it.

22 yrs Army helicopters, OH-58, TH-67 and later TH-57 experience. Taught the Maintenance Test Pilot course for Bell AH-1F Cobra. Mast bumping usually causes separation of the Main Rotor (M/R) hub from the mast. I does not usually pull the entire transmission out. The only thing that does that is excessive mast movement knocking the "candlestick" against it's stops under the XMSN. Watching the initial portion of the video, the aircraft appears to be flying level and cruising. I see no immediate maneuvers or disturbances until the severe yaw event that initiates the tail boom separation. My experiences point to 2 possible causes. The Tail Rotor (T/R) drive shaft hangar bearings on the 206 models (civilian versions of the 56, 57, and 58) are notoriously picky about accepting lubrication. They have been known to discolor and seize with little to no warning. Locking up the T/R drive shaft at the tail boom attach point bearing can cause separation, and the immediate torque due to loss of yaw control/tailboom could cause the whole upper pylon to become dislodged. The other option that comes to mind is pitch control link failure. I had a Cobra do that. When a P/C link fails, the M/R blades, or at least one, are no longer controlled and can easily flail themselves into the tailboom. That applies torque to the XMSN, potentially ripping it out. The fact the blades were still attached to the XMSN is what kept them rotating, like a toy set of blades on a stick. So, while I don't disagree that mast bumping could be a cause, the evidence I see doesn't lend itself to that.
Show less

Certified Airframe & Powerplant mechanic with 14 years/5 different platforms of Helos under my belt. I saw this video on a social media platform. As soon as I saw the fuselage falling, I instantly saw no tailboom attached. My first thought was inflight collision, but quickly realized there's no evidence of that. Second thought was structural failure of some sort. All of the Bell Helicopters I've worked on all been Semi-artuculate rotor heads. I've never once heard of a mast bumping incident resulting in an incident. Doesn't mean it's not possible though. I want to present another possibility from a mechanic point of view. On a larger Bell helicopter, the tailboom had 4 mount bolts that had to get replaced for - Life Limited - exceedance. We would do this during a phase or reset after specific flight hour intervals. If this particular model has a mounting bolt inspection or torque check an improperly installed mounting bolts would be catastrophic event in flight. I personally always thought the design was to simplistic and had no fail-safe design Incase of improper install or fatugue failure. In aviation helicopters have what we call the "Jesus nut". If the torque fails in-flight your praying to Jesus before meeting him. The tailboom bolts are just as important as it connects and supports everything in the tail rotor system. Pray for the innocent children. To many people take aviation safety for granted and don't understand how much effort goes into making airplanes and helicopters fly safe everyday in this country. We call it attention to detail. One small detail can cause a major incident and loss of life in aviation. Pilots have to be perfect, mechanics and ground crew have to be perfect. Mistakes aren't allowed in our industry. Perhaps someone made a mistake, or just structural fatigue. Only inspectors will determine the outcome. I know I sure would like to read the aircraft logbook and see who performed what maintenance. Then interview those mechs.
 

skyking

Lifer
Nov 21, 2001
22,611
5,714
146
mast bumping in that type of helicopter is rare.
I really prefer this guy's analysis and speculation ( or lack of it) He has a shit-ton of accident videos and I like his style.

 

iRONic

Diamond Member
Jan 28, 2006
7,970
3,285
136
I didn't watch the video because I haven't picked up a wrench or cracked a mx manual in 10 years. I'm not gonna bag on someone else's Bell/Textron helicopter opinion.

I agree whole hardly with everybody else who has chimed in on this, mast-bumping is very very unusual in any of the 206LIV series of rotorcraft. This is a four bladed main rotor system. The teetering effect on a two-blade main rotor system is not inherent with four blades on main rotor hubs.

That's not to say that it won't happen or can't happen. Radical flight control movements or severe weather could induce the problem.
 
Reactions: skyking

Pipeline 1010

Golden Member
Dec 2, 2005
1,972
793
136
I get that he doesn't like them playing the blame game. And correlation does not equal causation. However, firing the ATCs being followed by an increase in air traffic accidents seems more like "where there is smoke there is fire" than random coincidence. Actions have consequences.

That's just it. I was thinking the same thing since we're hearing about it in the news all the time now, but apparently there are actually fewer air traffic accidents this year than last. And none of the accidents that have happened seem to have anything to do with ATC error. All I'm saying is there is no statistical, factual, or logical reason to assign this particular blame. Yet.
 

DAPUNISHER

Super Moderator CPU Forum Mod and Elite Member
Super Moderator
Aug 22, 2001
31,014
29,039
146
but apparently there are actually fewer air traffic accidents this year than last.
Being concise is important. Are you saying fewer accidents compared to the first 3-4 months of last year or for the entire year? We want to keep it apples to apples. What is the source for the data?

According to this Reuters report I have been gaslit about the firings; none of the ATCs were included. The issue is the cuts will exacerbate the staffing shortages. https://www.reuters.com/world/us/fa...workers-transportation-chief-says-2025-02-18/
 

Pipeline 1010

Golden Member
Dec 2, 2005
1,972
793
136
Being concise is important. Are you saying fewer accidents compared to the first 3-4 months of last year or for the entire year? We want to keep it apples to apples. What is the source for the data?

According to this Reuters report I have been gaslit about the firings; none of the ATCs were included. The issue is the cuts will exacerbate the staffing shortages. https://www.reuters.com/world/us/fa...workers-transportation-chief-says-2025-02-18/

It's apples to apples compared with this time last year. Here's one source: https://www.northjersey.com/story/n...hes-2025-helicopter-hudson-river/83043599007/. This one is ironically titled "Why are so many planes crashing?", only to explain deep into the article that there are actually fewer crashes. This kind of shit makes me feel like a sucker.

It's not like "Why are so many planes crashing?" is an actual lie. If you parse the words, it is literally just an innocent question. YET, if you interpret the question as a typical person would, it strongly implies that more planes are crashing than usual, without actually saying so. That's the real trick, isn't it? The intent is clearly to mislead. Whether it's to gain clicks, or to place blame on an unpopular administration, or whatever other reason...I hate this so much.

I bet the majority of people in the U.S. right now believe that:
1) There are more plane crashes this year than last at this time.
2) There have been a lot of ATCs fired
3) #2 has caused #1

^ #2 doesn't actually exist, and couldn't possibly cause #1, which actually doesn't exist either.
 
Reactions: DAPUNISHER

pmv

Lifer
May 30, 2008
14,528
9,373
136
I haven't seen any reports of mass firings of ATC people by DOGE. I'm also conscious of the fact there's always a steady stream of air disasters, and it's easy to be mislead by media coverage of particularly dramatic cases, into possibly perceiving a "trend" where in fact there isn't one.

I do think there will be very bad effects in future from DOGE's mass firings of probationers in multiple areas of government. The staff shortages that will lead to will presumably take some time to show up and start causing problems, given it was entirely those probationers, i.e. newly-recruited staff, that they went after. (Though, then again, I gather 'probationers' included some experienced workers who had recently changed jobs).
 

DAPUNISHER

Super Moderator CPU Forum Mod and Elite Member
Super Moderator
Aug 22, 2001
31,014
29,039
146
@Pipeline 1010 You are winning me over on this issue. It seems like the Reagan airport collision being the deadliest in decades is why so many are suddenly so focused on aircraft safety. The budget cuts coinciding with it created a narrative.
 

BoomerD

No Lifer
Feb 26, 2006
65,559
13,927
146
Whaddayamean, stop all flights until the investigation is complete? You're fired!


Sunday, the Director of Operations for New York Helicopter, Jason Costello, agreed in a phone call and email to cease flights until the investigation was complete, the letter states.

But minutes later, it says, the company’s CEO Michael Roth sent an email to the FAA saying Costello didn’t have authority to do that and he was “no longer an employee of NY Helicopter.”

“The immediate firing of the Director of Operations raises serious safety concerns because it appears Mr. Roth retaliated against Mr. Costello for making the safety decision to cease operations during the investigations,” the FAA said in the letter.
 
Reactions: hal2kilo
sale-70-410-exam    | Exam-200-125-pdf    | we-sale-70-410-exam    | hot-sale-70-410-exam    | Latest-exam-700-603-Dumps    | Dumps-98-363-exams-date    | Certs-200-125-date    | Dumps-300-075-exams-date    | hot-sale-book-C8010-726-book    | Hot-Sale-200-310-Exam    | Exam-Description-200-310-dumps?    | hot-sale-book-200-125-book    | Latest-Updated-300-209-Exam    | Dumps-210-260-exams-date    | Download-200-125-Exam-PDF    | Exam-Description-300-101-dumps    | Certs-300-101-date    | Hot-Sale-300-075-Exam    | Latest-exam-200-125-Dumps    | Exam-Description-200-125-dumps    | Latest-Updated-300-075-Exam    | hot-sale-book-210-260-book    | Dumps-200-901-exams-date    | Certs-200-901-date    | Latest-exam-1Z0-062-Dumps    | Hot-Sale-1Z0-062-Exam    | Certs-CSSLP-date    | 100%-Pass-70-383-Exams    | Latest-JN0-360-real-exam-questions    | 100%-Pass-4A0-100-Real-Exam-Questions    | Dumps-300-135-exams-date    | Passed-200-105-Tech-Exams    | Latest-Updated-200-310-Exam    | Download-300-070-Exam-PDF    | Hot-Sale-JN0-360-Exam    | 100%-Pass-JN0-360-Exams    | 100%-Pass-JN0-360-Real-Exam-Questions    | Dumps-JN0-360-exams-date    | Exam-Description-1Z0-876-dumps    | Latest-exam-1Z0-876-Dumps    | Dumps-HPE0-Y53-exams-date    | 2017-Latest-HPE0-Y53-Exam    | 100%-Pass-HPE0-Y53-Real-Exam-Questions    | Pass-4A0-100-Exam    | Latest-4A0-100-Questions    | Dumps-98-365-exams-date    | 2017-Latest-98-365-Exam    | 100%-Pass-VCS-254-Exams    | 2017-Latest-VCS-273-Exam    | Dumps-200-355-exams-date    | 2017-Latest-300-320-Exam    | Pass-300-101-Exam    | 100%-Pass-300-115-Exams    |
http://www.portvapes.co.uk/    | http://www.portvapes.co.uk/    |