Discussion ***Official*** 2025 Stock Market Thread 💰

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dullard

Elite Member
May 21, 2001
25,761
4,282
126
But thats not even the worse case. While I have long suggested it is impossible for America to repay the national debt, Trump may one day re-embrace a previous position of renegotiating the debt, which is a technical default.
I see two ways to get the national debt back to reasonable values.

1) Spend within our means. That means having close to a balanced budget (including payments on debt in that equation). A balanced budget would basically end our debt in a generation as we would no longer issue new long-term debt. The debt would slowly go away naturally as we pay each bond off. This is controlled and orderly. But it requires politicians to think of the long term instead of their next election in 1.5 years. Very few politicians can herd 535 cats. But, actually Trump is one of the few who could herd just enough cats with power to do it.

2) Default (in any form) and have the outside world force us into a balanced budget. If no one lends to us, then we can't keep borrowing, and we are forced into austerity. Of course, as you said, this is messy and a nightmare scenario. Think of a major depression at the least.

Seems like #2 is all that anyone ever argues for.
 
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IronWing

No Lifer
Jul 20, 2001
71,884
31,963
136
I see two ways to get the national debt back to reasonable values.

1) Spend within our means. That means having close to a balanced budget (including payments on debt in that equation). A balanced budget would basically end our debt in a generation as we would no longer issue new long-term debt. The debt would slowly go away naturally as we pay each bond off. This is controlled and orderly. But it requires politicians to think of the long term instead of their next election in 1.5 years. Very few politicians can herd 535 cats. But, actually Trump is one of the few who could herd just enough cats with power to do it.

2) Default (in any form) and have the outside world force us into a balanced budget. If no one lends to us, then we can't keep borrowing, and we are forced into austerity. Of course, as you said, this is messy and a nightmare scenario. Think of a major depression at the least.

Seems like #2 is all that anyone ever argues for.
Option one requires taxing the political donor class. The donors would rather burn the world than pay taxes.
 

biostud

Lifer
Feb 27, 2003
19,449
6,503
136
I'm caught in 2 minds.. do I trust the S&P 500 to recover or do I put it somewhere safer?

We've never had a government actively try to destroy America and S&P 500 was always based in the belief of America.
Yeah, I'll end up buying the same three index funds for my fourth child as a child saving, one of them being a US growth. So the question is simply how much rebate will there be when I buy.

If he is already gives up on Ukraine after three months in a war he could "fix" in one day, we know he'll fold within the next 90 days or so. The question there being if anyone of importance (China) wants to strike any deal...

EU will make a deal, but it's not going to be much different from what we had before.
 
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dullard

Elite Member
May 21, 2001
25,761
4,282
126
EU will make a deal, but it's not going to be much different from what we had before.
Yep. After railing against NAFTA (North American Free Trade Agreement) for years, Trump 1 finally negotiated a new deal. It was replaced by the nearly identical USMCA (United States–Mexico–Canada Agreement). You'd have to go over it with a fine tooth comb to find any difference and those few differences are negligibly different. But, Trump got his "win" with another deal.
 
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biostud

Lifer
Feb 27, 2003
19,449
6,503
136
Yeah, I'll end up buying the same three index funds for my fourth child as a child saving, one of them being a US growth. So the question is simply how much rebate will there be when I buy.

If he is already gives up on Ukraine after three months in a war he could "fix" in one day, we know he'll fold within the next 90 days or so. The question there being if anyone of importance (China) wants to strike any deal...

EU will make a deal, but it's not going to be much different from what we had before.
Also one of the funds is the Danish C25 index which is also bleeding red ATM, so personally I prefer to miss out on the bottom, than trying catch a falling knife.
 
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JTsyo

Lifer
Nov 18, 2007
11,968
1,095
126
I see two ways to get the national debt back to reasonable values.

1) Spend within our means. That means having close to a balanced budget (including payments on debt in that equation). A balanced budget would basically end our debt in a generation as we would no longer issue new long-term debt. The debt would slowly go away naturally as we pay each bond off. This is controlled and orderly. But it requires politicians to think of the long term instead of their next election in 1.5 years. Very few politicians can herd 535 cats. But, actually Trump is one of the few who could herd just enough cats with power to do it.

2) Default (in any form) and have the outside world force us into a balanced budget. If no one lends to us, then we can't keep borrowing, and we are forced into austerity. Of course, as you said, this is messy and a nightmare scenario. Think of a major depression at the least.

Seems like #2 is all that anyone ever argues for.
What would happen to the markets if US treasuries weren't a thing any more? Would investors just gravitate towards other bonds? It might be worthwhile to keep a small deficit while paying off the current debt over the next 30 years.
 

IronWing

No Lifer
Jul 20, 2001
71,884
31,963
136
What would happen to the markets if US treasuries weren't a thing any more? Would investors just gravitate towards other bonds? It might be worthwhile to keep a small deficit while paying off the current debt over the next 30 years.

That was a topic of much discussion in the second Clinton term. The prevailing thought then was that having no U.S treasuries to buy would lead to financial destabilization.
 

dullard

Elite Member
May 21, 2001
25,761
4,282
126
What would happen to the markets if US treasuries weren't a thing any more? Would investors just gravitate towards other bonds? It might be worthwhile to keep a small deficit while paying off the current debt over the next 30 years.
That was a topic of much discussion in the second Clinton term. The prevailing thought then was that having no U.S treasuries to buy would lead to financial destabilization.
I do not think fully balanced budgets are a good idea (which is why I said "close to balanced"). Mostly for the risk that causes. What if someone attacks us? Oh well, we have to have a balanced budget so no defending us until the next fiscal year. Or another Covid--do nothing until next year. Etc. But long term the goal should be close to balanced as the direction we are heading of don't tax but spend anyways is unsustainable.

Back in Clinton's term the discussion that I recall was that ending US debt would end one of the few really stable foolproof investments. Investors could choose between safe and risky and get different rates of return to match their needs. Ending our debt then would have lead to all kinds of investments into riskier bonds (smaller governments\companies, less stable governments, governments\companies that have defaulted in the past, etc). I'm not sure that is the case now. If our president is serious about defaulting, then we no longer have one of the few really stable foolproof investments. There is no longer that tradeoff. Investors may already have to choose between risky and risky. Our bond rates would go up--but as we wouldn't be borrowing too much that is not much of a problem.

Plus, the market would have decades to prepare for this gradual shift. It isn't like US bonds would end instantly. We would just slowly be paying them off. Some new bonds would still be issued for the next decade when we don't have the cash to pay expiring ones off in full.
 

njdevilsfan87

Platinum Member
Apr 19, 2007
2,341
264
126
Gold is down today but have otherwise has really been having a run since the markets have been shitting themselves. Bitcoin has also been gaining momentum lately. It has recovered to the point where it is now down on its ATH the same as an index fund like VOO - this is unpresented since historically its losses multiplied index funds during downturns.

I wonder if there is a shift of "nobody knows what to invest in - because who really knows wtf they're doing when it comes to foreign markets, so we're going to start moving into wealth protection vehicles".
 
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Charmonium

Lifer
May 15, 2015
10,321
3,406
136
Tesla reported and might be in the middle of their analyst call.

I saw one headline a couple days ago (which I didn't bother sourcing but I tend to that edit on sources subconsciously). It was about law suit claims that Tesla jacks up the odometer so that you hit you warranty limits more closely quickly.

Elon is a bad little rodent.
 

Indus

Lifer
May 11, 2002
14,479
10,153
136

Indus

Lifer
May 11, 2002
14,479
10,153
136
Usually that means they expected it to be worse.

So Tesla up 8% after 71% decline in profits?

I know I said I am still in the markets with about 15k in AMZN, AVGO and GOOGL (currently valued at 11.9k), but even I have started to think this is a Tulip bubble we're witnessing..
 

FelixDeCat

Lifer
Aug 4, 2000
30,546
2,559
126
Bought CEP yesterday at 15.85, sold 19.50

Bought it back today 24.09, sold 29

Careful, this is a preconversion spac which is normally only worth 10.
 
Last edited:

FelixDeCat

Lifer
Aug 4, 2000
30,546
2,559
126
What to do with RBLX.

They report on 5/1. Sell before then, or hold and hope for a good EC?

Roblox has been dropping the ball the past few quarters and even had a short report released attacking the company for all sorts of reasons including not protecting kids from predators. Otherwise they are expected to beat according to this article:



Some companies beat and go up, others beat and go down anyway (at least initially) then go back up.


The Fibbonacci number range is between 55 and 89, so it could be somewhere in between.
 
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dasherHampton

Platinum Member
Jan 19, 2018
2,586
515
126
I bought 500 shares when it collapsed (along with everything else). Good profit for now, but If it drops $10 after earnings it would certainly be painful.

I'm thinking I'll just sell before the EC. And of course it'll be the wrong call.

A retail traders' life. lol
 
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