I'll give you that. Although, I think you can then agree that it was not just the police that caused the pursuit.
There are many theories as to why he wanted the blood sample. And it would be interesting to know if his pursuit (pun intended) of that was solely of his own volition or from the department he was assisting. What I mean by that is that it appears the other agency asked Salt Lake to try to obtain the blood sample, but it appears that the detective went farther than the original agency would have wanted.
- Merg
I think we are seeing the same thing, but looking at it from different angles. My point was that if he knew about the Supreme Court decision, there's no excuse for trying to draw blood without a search warrant. On the other side, he admitted he didn't have any one of the reasons the nurse provided as to a reason to draw blood. Looking at it from either side, he was in the wrong.
- Merg
Utah hospital to cops "stay away from our nurses" - https://www.washingtonpost.com/news...om-contact-with-nurses-after-appalling-arrest
Utah hospital to cops "stay away from our nurses" - https://www.washingtonpost.com/news...om-contact-with-nurses-after-appalling-arrest
She said police will no longer be permitted in patient care areas, such as the burn unit where Wubbels was the charge nurse on the day of the incident.
In addition, officers will have to deal with “house supervisors” instead of nurses when they have a request.
This will guarantee that nurses devote themselves entirely to patient care without interruptions, she said, while other officials deal with police requests.
Why do you say that it appears the other agency asked for the blood draw? From everything that I have read it doesn't appear that the officer knew the victim was a reserve officer at the time of the incident. It seems to me that if the agency the victim worked for requested the draw they would be saying so at every opportunity to try and shift some of the blame.
What other theories do you know as to why he wanted the blood sample?
He was a trained phlebotomist for the police department. This is one of those times that he, and he alone, is responsible for knowing a decade old ruling effects when he can and can not forcibly take a persons blood. Also it should be noted that it wasn't until after the incident became public that they ever mentioned anything about implied consent. He never once mentioned it at the scene which any reasonable person would have done during the discourse with the nurse about when he could and could not draw blood. There wouldn't have been any need to even discuss getting a warrant and how they lacked the PC to do so with his partner since a warrant would never have been required. It might be understandable if this was a new ruling or something but we again we are talking about a decade old ruling that directly affects how he can do his job. Wouldn't you agree?
When I said other agency, I was not referring to the agency for which the victim worked. I was referring to the agency involved in the pursuit, which was not Salt Lake PD. From what I read, the pursuing agency requested assistance from Salt Lake PD. The Salt Lake PD detective then wanted the blood draw. I don't think it has been clarified what exactly the pursuing agency asked for with regards to the assistance needed.
I know where I am that if a person is a victim of an accident and it is possibly life-threatening, the agency that is working the crash will request an officer from the agency where the hospital is to watch the patient until one of the originating agency's officers gets there.
- Merg
My point was that in order for him to draw blood that without exigent circumstances or consent, he would need a search warrant. Even with implied consent, which requires the subject to be under arrest, since it is a blood draw, a search warrant is required.
In this case, even if the detective didn't know about the search warrant ruling (which came down this year), he should have known that implied consent wasn't valid as the subject wasn't under arrest. And even if he thought he could do it under implied consent, he still would have needed a search warrant.
- Merg
Ahh thanks for clarifying both points. So even their BS CYA excuse of implied consent doesn't hold a drop of water then because not only did they not have a warrant the officer can be heard saying that they didn't have the PC to even try and get one.
You still haven't answered the question, since we know virtually all of the relevant facts do YOU think he should be charged with a crime?
Assault, battery, unlawful imprisonment for pinning her against the wall outside of the glass doors, conduct unbecoming of a LEO and false arrest just to name a few things.YOU think he should be charged with a crime?
Assault, battery, unlawful imprisonment for pinning her against the wall outside of the glass doors, conduct unbecoming of a LEO and false arrest just to name a few things.
He, like so many other officials, feel like they are above the law hence they believe that they can behave any old way they please. Nothing could be further from the truth and its well past time that this type of behavior was exposed. Citizens with cameras on the streets ensures that they will be more apt to behave themselves and when they don't the evidence can do the talking.Seems like that cop just snapped, like he couldn't deal with the law being used against him by an uppity nurse. It's hard to escape the conclusion that this guy has some underlying issues; his actions seemed driven by pure emotion.
That's my thoughts exactly. He seemed to snap when her supervisor told him/them they were making a mistake.Seems like that cop just snapped, like he couldn't deal with the law being used against him by an uppity nurse. It's hard to escape the conclusion that this guy has some underlying issues; his actions seemed driven by pure emotion.
The worrisome part is that it wasn't even a high intensity scenario, there were no weapons, not even any yelling. Who knows what this guy would do in an actual situation where someone could end up dead.That's my thoughts exactly. He seemed to snap when her supervisor told him/them they were making a mistake.
Precisely. He came across as highly volatile imo. I suspect he's had other incidents.The worrisome part is that it wasn't even a high intensity scenario, there were no weapons, not even any yelling. Who knows what this guy would do in an actual situation where someone could end up dead.
It's still sterilized, but they don't use alcohol swabs. Offhand, I don't remember what it is that they use.
- Merg
In the video, Payne could be heard telling another officer that as a first responder he could “bring them all the transients and take good patients elsewhere” if Wubbels refused to let him draw blood.
After the footage was released, Gold Cross Ambulance President Mike Moffitt said, “That’s not the way we conduct our business, that’s not the way we treat people in our city,” according to the Associated Press. Gold Cross said Payne’s firing was effective immediately and stressed that he wasn’t working on behalf of the company during his dispute with Wubbels
Typically Betadine swabs. Most of the nurses I know had switched to those years ago...much more effective at killing "stuff" than alcohol pads. Personally, I used Betadine then followed with alcohol....Betadine dries sticky and I preferred not having sticky skin when I stuck.
what a shit bag. I do find it odd a detective also moonlights as a paramedic. wtf dont they have enough work for a full time detective?
Like many cops, they have second jobs. I assume that's what he was doing. I doubt it has anything to do with him not having enough work.
Glad the ambulance took action just by the statements he made.
- Merg
I've noticed that as well, however, I've also noticed that most of them have very comfortable life styles for said wages so go figure.Don't know if this is a factor here, but some US cops in some cities appear to be astonishingly poorly-paid. I still remember a case in the papers from decades ago, where a cop working part-time as a security guard in a restaurant got shot dead by a fellow cop 'working' part time as an armed-robber.
I've noticed that as well, however, I've also noticed that most of them have very comfortable life styles for said wages so go figure.
When I got out of the Army I went to manufacturing instead of law enforcement because of the low wages. There's a mentality present in most police forces that promotes being above the law which we see play out over and over again all over the country that wages alone will not fix.I don't know enough to comment on that! But perhaps part of the problem is down to the rule of 'you get what you pay for'. And some element of cop behaviour might be due to the way police departments are funded.
look upWhen I got out of the Army I went to manufacturing instead of law enforcement because of the low wages. There's a mentality present in most police forces that promotes being above the law which we see play out over and over again all over the country that wages alone will not fix.
The natural end result of this line of reasoning would be that the wealthiest among us have the most integrity, something I hope you disagree with.Better wages could attract better informed people with better integrity.