‘This is crazy,’ sobs Utah hospital nurse as cop roughs her up, arrests her for doing her job

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interchange

Diamond Member
Oct 10, 1999
8,022
2,872
136
Those who have the capability of changing the law (namely those involved and invested in the law system) will only do so when it affects them directly. It's very much a human element and I wouldn't expect the humans setting laws to behave differently. However, as long as there's a double standard between those in law enforcement/law creation and 'everyone else', there will be an unjust system in place in which the have-nots are punished unjustly. Those in law enforcement should absolutely, positively be punished as harshly for crimes as those not, otherwise unjust laws will never truly have a challenge.

Oh I think most likely both are punished unjustly. I do, however, like the ideal of holding officers to a higher standard through harsher punishments, but it is simply an ideal. In practice, what we really want is for police to have a higher standard for themselves which is all about institutional culture largely set through systems that dictate how things are done. In fact, if they have a more accountable culture, actions like this would indicate more significant deviance and a just punishment would be harsher. I think officers themselves would advocate for it too.

But I want to live in the real world. We are not there. I don't want to put the cart before the horse. We should hold individuals accountable, but more importantly the system that permitted such deviance if we find that the behavior wasn't so abnormal after all, just the consequence. We aren't doing that. And so our officers are constantly fighting against the idea that they are corrupt, racist, and going to be punished by people who neither understand nor care about the complex and dangerous job they do no differently than any other. And this is the feeling for good officers. As I said, someone who is intentionally deviant needs to be held accountable (ideally regardless of consequences). All the other guys who are just doing their human best -- well, if they are feeling threatened by actions to correct deviance instead of supportive of them, something is wrong with what you are doing.
 

Darwin333

Lifer
Dec 11, 2006
19,946
2,328
126
Oh I think most likely both are punished unjustly. I do, however, like the ideal of holding officers to a higher standard through harsher punishments, but it is simply an ideal. In practice, what we really want is for police to have a higher standard for themselves which is all about institutional culture largely set through systems that dictate how things are done. In fact, if they have a more accountable culture, actions like this would indicate more significant deviance and a just punishment would be harsher. I think officers themselves would advocate for it too.

But I want to live in the real world. We are not there. I don't want to put the cart before the horse. We should hold individuals accountable, but more importantly the system that permitted such deviance if we find that the behavior wasn't so abnormal after all, just the consequence. We aren't doing that. And so our officers are constantly fighting against the idea that they are corrupt, racist, and going to be punished by people who neither understand nor care about the complex and dangerous job they do no differently than any other. And this is the feeling for good officers. As I said, someone who is intentionally deviant needs to be held accountable (ideally regardless of consequences). All the other guys who are just doing their human best -- well, if they are feeling threatened by actions to correct deviance instead of supportive of them, something is wrong with what you are doing.

That just doesn't happen though. Look at the states that have tried to make it illegal for cops to have sex with prostitutes, the police unions and police departments fight tooth in nail to prevent those laws from getting passed. Yes, the cops in some states often wait until after the prostitute finishes giving them a blowjob or they finish fucking them before arresting them. I forget the state but one cop, using taxpayer dollars, went to a massage parlor and got sexual services including full on intercourse on FOUR different occasions before they busted the place. Evidently once wasn't enough proof or he had to sample the entire menu to charge them the most? Keep in mind, this is long after they have not only agreed to swap money for sex but did money did actually exchange hands which is pretty much the gold standard in proof against prostitutes.

"Only weeks before Freddie Gray’s death while in custody of Baltimore police, cops from around the state filled a committee hearing room in Annapolis to aggressively lobby against a wave of reform bills aimed at increasing police accountability in Maryland. The police won: every bill to make it easier to investigate and prosecute police misconduct went down to defeat"

Even worse are the contracts that the police unions negotiate:

"Hector Jimenez, an Oakland police officer who was dismissed in 2009, after killing two unarmed men, but who then successfully appealed and, two years later, was reinstated, with full back pay. The protection that unions have secured has helped create what Samuel Walker, an emeritus professor of criminal justice at the University of Nebraska at Omaha, and an expert on police accountability, calls a “culture of impunity.” Citing a recent Justice Department investigation of Baltimore’s police department, which found a systemic pattern of “serious violations of the U.S. Constitution and federal law,” he told me, “Knowing that it’s hard to be punished for misconduct fosters an attitude where you think you don’t have to answer for your behavior.”

For the past fifty years, police unions have done their best to block policing reforms of all kinds. In the seventies, they opposed officers’ having to wear name tags. More recently, they’ve opposed the use of body cameras and have protested proposals to document racial profiling and to track excessive-force complaints. They have lobbied to keep disciplinary histories sealed. If a doctor commits malpractice, it’s a matter of public record, but, in much of the country, a police officer’s use of excessive force is not. Across the nation, unions have led the battle to limit the power of civilian-review boards, generally by arguing that civilians are in no position to judge the split-second decisions that police officers make. Earlier this year, Newark created a civilian-review board that was acclaimed as a model of oversight. The city’s police union immediately announced that it would sue to shut it down."
 

interchange

Diamond Member
Oct 10, 1999
8,022
2,872
136
That just doesn't happen though.

I'll certainly join in with you and saying that it doesn't happen enough and so far away from enough that it might as well not be happening at all.

Though I actually think looking for accountability elsewhere by putting officer's heads on a chopping block is counterproductive. It allows us to imagine that we've done something appropriate to handle the problem and offload our anger at it happening in the first place.

But if we haven't made any progress in changing how things work for all, that idea that we've done something productive is just a fantasy. And it's one that I'd rather do without. I'd rather we all be constantly pissed off that things aren't remotely the way they ought to be. If we can handle that and not be suckered in by fake solutions, we might be able to turn our anger into productive energy to actually implement meaningful change.
 

Puffnstuff

Lifer
Mar 9, 2005
16,037
4,800
136
This is a weird article because the hospital and the nurse were going off the negotiated policy the police department and the hospital created.
He was in God mode and above the law until social media caught up with him and his department. I don't really put any stock in anything they've said thus far because if they were truly sorry they'd have come forward on their own rather than reacting to the video release.
 
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Darwin333

Lifer
Dec 11, 2006
19,946
2,328
126
This is a weird article because the hospital and the nurse were going off the negotiated policy the police department and the hospital created.

It wasn't so much of a negotiated agreement but guidelines created based on the law.
 

Darwin333

Lifer
Dec 11, 2006
19,946
2,328
126
I'll certainly join in with you and saying that it doesn't happen enough and so far away from enough that it might as well not be happening at all.

Though I actually think looking for accountability elsewhere by putting officer's heads on a chopping block is counterproductive. It allows us to imagine that we've done something appropriate to handle the problem and offload our anger at it happening in the first place.

But if we haven't made any progress in changing how things work for all, that idea that we've done something productive is just a fantasy. And it's one that I'd rather do without. I'd rather we all be constantly pissed off that things aren't remotely the way they ought to be. If we can handle that and not be suckered in by fake solutions, we might be able to turn our anger into productive energy to actually implement meaningful change.

So you do not think that we should charge officers for committing crimes? That they should not be held to the minimum standards that the rest of us are?

What other way is there to hold them accountable and how can the rest of us get equal treatment? I'd love to be able to break the law and get a paid vacation.
 

interchange

Diamond Member
Oct 10, 1999
8,022
2,872
136
So you do not think that we should charge officers for committing crimes? That they should not be held to the minimum standards that the rest of us are?

What other way is there to hold them accountable and how can the rest of us get equal treatment? I'd love to be able to break the law and get a paid vacation.

I do, generally when it is clear that criminal behavior has taken place. As for any case, though, the level of offense and strength of sentence depends on many factors about the particular situation a person is placed in and the reasonableness of their actions relative to peers. This is a complex equation that should be applied by jury and judge in a just manner. Thus, I wouldn't support penalties that fit the idea of "making an example of someone", nor would I support protection of police from criminal charge because prosecution of police would inhibit them from doing their job safely. A just punishment that incorporates those mitigating considerations aides the problem best because it supports a higher standard of work and it supports also that if a line is crossed you will be judged fairly.

Now, if the penalty for simple assault were death, I wouldn't support the police officer receiving it just because civilians do.

Re: paid vacation. I do not support blanket paid leave or in tact retirement for obvious malicious behavior. I would think an initial inquiry might be appropriate to determine paid leave, suspension, etc. followed up with a longer investigation. But the paid leave is not inconsistent with many industries, particularly when employees are unionized. I would personally hope for the bar of denying it would be rather high. If an officer is actually cleared or found less culpable than originally thought, it would be a shame to have them and family incur such an impact. In general, a fair culture which gives reasonable benefit of the doubt and protection of finances and benefits is one that will be most productive in encouraging reporting and proper investigation of problems without covering them up. But you are right that absolute protection from financial loss is bad. It sets up employee and employer as enemy and adds validity automatically to an obvious act of malice.
 

ch33zw1z

Lifer
Nov 4, 2004
37,989
18,337
146
Not enough. LEO's need to know they can't just do whatever they want. Loud and clear. thanks for update.
 

Svnla

Lifer
Nov 10, 2003
17,999
1,396
126
Is being demoted to officer basically the lowest rank?

Very much.

When you want to be a cop, this is the process (per a friend of mine who is a Captain at a major municipal entity). Not all police departments follow the same path.

1. Recruit/Trainee/Cadet
2. Officer
3. Corporal
4. Sergeant
5. Lieutenant
6. Captain
7. Commander
8. Asst. Chief
9. Chief
 

Paratus

Lifer
Jun 4, 2004
16,843
13,774
146
Besides all the reasons not to do what he did that was hashed out in this thread the other reason it was so stupid was officers have a decent chance to end up in the hospital.

Would you want a nurse you illegally arrested working on you?
 

The Merg

Golden Member
Feb 25, 2009
1,210
34
91
that cop will get pulled into some other police force. There needs to be a permanent black list.

No other department is going to want to even come close to hiring that guy. This isn’t a case where he was able to resign or retire before an administrative decision was handed down.

- Merg
 

kage69

Lifer
Jul 17, 2003
28,019
38,496
136
No other department is going to want to even come close to hiring that guy. This isn’t a case where he was able to resign or retire before an administrative decision was handed down.

- Merg

I remember thinking that about cops in the South. I also remember being wrong.

I had a story bookmarked a long time ago about one guy in particular. A career of abuse spanning 6 departments.
 

brycejones

Lifer
Oct 18, 2005
26,665
24,968
136
A national registry of officers fired or forced to resign for abusing their authority seems to be in order. The police chief of the small town my parents live in was just fired after engaging in a personal vendetta against them for the last year. Turns out the guy "resigned" after slamming a woman to the ground and several years later was forced out as the police chief for Jefferson City, MO after more than 80% of his officers gave him a no confidence vote. All things the city where my parents live was unaware of.
 

interchange

Diamond Member
Oct 10, 1999
8,022
2,872
136
I remember thinking that about cops in the South. I also remember being wrong.

I had a story bookmarked a long time ago about one guy in particular. A career of abuse spanning 6 departments.

It's a real problem. The fact that this is a national news story might be an effective deterrent here, but that doesn't make me feel any better. If anything, worse. The value is appearing ethical, not acting ethically.
 

The Merg

Golden Member
Feb 25, 2009
1,210
34
91
A national registry of officers fired or forced to resign for abusing their authority seems to be in order. The police chief of the small town my parents live in was just fired after engaging in a personal vendetta against them for the last year. Turns out the guy "resigned" after slamming a woman to the ground and several years later was forced out as the police chief for Jefferson City, MO after more than 80% of his officers gave him a no confidence vote. All things the city where my parents live was unaware of.

You’ll never have a registry that lists officers that are “forced” to resign as the fact that the officer resigned means it was on their own terms.

And you shouldn’t need a registry of officers fired. When a Department is in the process of hiring someone, they should be doing their due diligence in checking on the person’s history and should see if they were fired from some place and if so, should find out why the firing occurred. And if the officer failed to mention that they were fired that should be an automatic reason to eliminate the officer from being hired.

And remember that just because someone was fired from a job doesn’t mean that they are unhireable somewhere else. Imagine if everyone who was fired from a job couldn’t get a job again.

(And that stinks about your parents.)

- Merg
 
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