“We are desperate—desperate for more immigrants”

[Fenixgoon]

There are no strawberry pickers in the major metro areas where the vast majority of undocumented workers reside. See my link above.

not surprising because
a) those are some of the most populous areas in the US, period
b) some of those areas are likely to have policies more friendly/forgiving to illegal immigrants

don't get me wrong, i'm not advocating we go Elián González on everyone who's here illegally and parade ICE around. it's a colossal waste of resources and is counter to the values of the US.

but you're generally going to find illegal labor in lower-skilled industries where people are more likely to be taken advantage of. things like agriculture, cleaning services, construction, lawn work, household work, food, and so on.

These U.S. industries can't work without illegal immigrants

Some 8 million undocumented workers pick American fruit, construct American buildings, raise American babies – and pay American taxes

www.cbsnews.com

about half of US farmworks are illegal immigrants.

In 2017 research conducted by the Cornell Farmworker Program, 30 New York dairy farmers told us they turned to undocumented workers because they were unable to find and keep reliable U.S. citizens to do the jobs. That's in part because farm work can be physically demanding, dirty and socially denigrated work. More importantly, it is one the most dangerous occupations in the U.S.

translation - not willing to pay enough to attract and retain legally eligible workers, so we go to illegal immigrants who will work for less.

if we let prices on goods float, then wages can adjust. but as long as our goal is to reduce prices as low as possible, then we shouldn't expect any other solution aside from the one we have now (until further automation takes place, anyway).

edit:

A study commissioned by the dairy industry suggested that if federal labor and immigration policies reduced the number of foreign-born workers by 50 percent, more than 3,500 dairy farms would close, leading to a big drop in milk production and a spike in prices of about 30 percent. Total elimination of immigrant labor would increase milk prices by 90 percent.

so for better (in this case, worse), our economic system has created a scenario where illegal labor is not just desirable but necessary to be profitable. if milk prices doubled, demand would drop like a bad habit.

i'm sure other prices would rise too - beef, steak, leather, and so on - on account of a drop in need for cattle.
but that also means that vacant cattle pastures could then be used for something else.

 

[Maxima1]

Excuse me, but 10% of the population of greater LA is undocumented & rents are exorbitant throughout the region. Every city on this list has a high % of undocumented residents-

Highest Rent In The US By City 2022 | FortuneBuilders

The cities with the highest rent in the US might surprise you. Check out FortuneBuilders' market analysis to see who's on the list in 2022.

www.fortunebuilders.com

First, observe reality. Then create theories that actually explain it.

Your own link says the following: "San Diego is a strong seller’s market, which has given landlords the leeway to raise rent prices as long as housing inventory remains in shortage."

Landlords are able to act like monopolists because of supply being restricted/fixed. Landlords won't care if more at the bottom of the scale have to room up, live with extended families, or move out completely from the area if they can extract more money otherwise.

Immigrants obviously can suppress wage increases whether from the bottom or upper half of jobs. Like we see with the trucker shortage or the visas to get in lower paid engineers. Here's an article about Greenspan from the Economist:

The great equaliser, Alan Greenspan

Does David Sirota want to reduce inequality or not?

www.economist.com

We ought to be opening up our borders to skilled labour from all parts of the world because if we were to do that we would increase the supply of skilled workers that our schools have been unable to create and as a consequence of that we would lower the average wage of skills and reduce the degree of income inequality in this country.

 

[Fenixgoon]

We ought to be opening up our borders to skilled labour from all parts of the world because if we were to do that we would increase the supply of skilled workers that our schools have been unable to create and as a consequence of that we would lower the average wage of skills and reduce the degree of income inequality in this country.

gonna have to disagree with greenspan on this one. there's no way income inequality would decrease. if anything it would only be exacerbated. a larger labor supply means employers have little incentive to raise wages due to high competition, so the vast majority of wage-earners would be negatively impacted by a sudden influx of skilled or unskilled earners

another jeff bezos isn't going to magically expatriate to the US and somehow rain down wealth upon the lower 99.99% of earners to bridge that colossal gap, because that's where the gap exists.

the income gap isn't between the median and the 99%, it's between the median and the 99.99% or 99.999%

 

[Jhhnn]

Your own link says the following: "San Diego is a strong seller’s market, which has given landlords the leeway to raise rent prices as long as housing inventory remains in shortage."

Landlords are able to act like monopolists because of supply being restricted/fixed. Landlords won't care if more at the bottom of the scale have to room up, live with extended families, or move out completely from the area if they can extract more money otherwise.

Immigrants obviously can suppress wage increases whether from the bottom or upper half of jobs. Like we see with the trucker shortage or the visas to get in lower paid engineers. Here's an article about Greenspan from the Economist:

The great equaliser, Alan Greenspan

Does David Sirota want to reduce inequality or not?

www.economist.com

We ought to be opening up our borders to skilled labour from all parts of the world because if we were to do that we would increase the supply of skilled workers that our schools have been unable to create and as a consequence of that we would lower the average wage of skills and reduce the degree of income inequality in this country.

That doesn't explain the other cities. And, uhh, farmers & ranchers are only 1.3% of the workforce.

9 mind-blowing facts about the US farming industry

The US farming industry contributes more than $100 billion to the economy — but it's being threatened by trade wars and climate change.

markets.businessinsider.com

If you read the Pew link, you find out that undocumented immigrants are actually a lot more urbanized than the rest of America.

Greenspan is full of shit, as always.

 

[s0me0nesmind1]

Le Whoosh! If undocumented immigrants depressed wages then that in turn would depress rents. It can be no other way. Yet rents are the highest in cities where they live. Therefore the contention that they depress wages has no basis in fact.

There's nothing more hilarious then when someone gets called out on their BS that has nothing to do with the debate at-hand and just responding "whoosh!" as if you're somehow in anyway seen as intellectually superior and went "above my head".

Quite the opposite, my friend. Anyhow, I'm enjoying your self-destruction.

 

[JEDIYoda]

okay lets us say undocumented aliens do suppress wages!
Yet and I am being truthful.....who is going to pick the strawberries in the strawberry fields in the Salinas Valley? I have lived in that area for over 40 years and I have never seen a white anglo-saxon strawberry picker -- ever!! So please explain how jobs are being stolen from legal americans, when they will not do the work,,,lolol It has nothing to do with wages! The issue is it is plain old hard work bending over all day in the sun!!

 

[Jhhnn]

There's nothing more hilarious then when someone gets called out on their BS that has nothing to do with the debate at-hand and just responding "whoosh!" as if you're somehow in anyway seen as intellectually superior and went "above my head".

Quite the opposite, my friend. Anyhow, I'm enjoying your self-destruction.

Heh. Mulvaney goes to the UK & begs for more immigrants as they are trying to deport productive immigrants who are already here, most of them for more than a decade-

U.S. Unauthorized Immigrant Total Dips to Lowest Level in a Decade

There were 10.7 million unauthorized immigrants in the U.S. in 2016, down from 12.2 million in 2007. The total is the lowest since 2004 and is tied to a decline in the number of Mexican unauthorized immigrants.

www.pewresearch.org

But they're illegals! is a poor excuse for racist stupidity.

 

[Ottonomous]

Nov 2017 - Even Trump in a characteristic display of total hypocrisy put out visas for foreign staff to depress wages at his new Florida resort

Trump's Mar-A-Lago gets approval to hire 70 foreign workers

 

[SP33Demon]

okay lets us say undocumented aliens do suppress wages!
Yet and I am being truthful.....who is going to pick the strawberries in the strawberry fields in the Salinas Valley? I have lived in that area for over 40 years and I have never seen a white anglo-saxon strawberry picker -- ever!! So please explain how jobs are being stolen from legal americans, when they will not do the work,,,lolol It has nothing to do with wages! The issue is it is plain old hard work bending over all day in the sun!!

Illegals do suppress wages as the economist broke down last week.

Immigration to America is down. Wages are up

Are the two related?

www.economist.com

California is in a unique situation of being a sanctuary state and border friendly so you won't have to worry about those strawberry fields anytime soon. Assuming all illegals are halted, the U.S. could ramp up legal immigration for agricultural workers if the demand warranted it.

 

[Ottonomous]

So whats the overall consensus of everyone on if we do or do not need more immigration?

I keep hearing, WHO WILL PICK OUR FRUITS?! Who will clean shit up?

Yet at the same time we hear the message of automation is taking all the low skill jobs!

So which is it ? Do we need UBI because we will have a useless labor pool? Or do we need more people for standard labor?

You don't need to worry because once automation becomes a viable substitute the amazon slaves will be handed unpaid severance in a split second. I am already envisioning republican congressmen on TV shooting down protection bills for low-wage workers with BS arguments.

If you really want to protect the white communities might as well give your capitalist overlords a few jabs instead of just desperately going after democrats

 

[SP33Demon]

You don't need to worry because once automation becomes a viable substitute the amazon slaves will be handed unpaid severance in a split second. I am already envisioning republican congressmen on TV shooting down protection bills for low-wage workers with BS arguments.

If you really want to protect the white communities might as well give your capitalist overlords a few jabs instead of just desperately going after democrats

Instead of jabbing your capitalist overlords, I think the can't beat em join em strategy works very well:
1) Start your own business, reap their benefits (such as LLC pass through profit being 20% deducted from taxes per 2017 GOP tax cuts). You are already ahead of 95% of the country by having the balls to try.
2) Invest in the S&P. Anytime they screw their workers over, you will benefit as well. That mitigates some of the sting of automation.

 

[Ottonomous]

Illegals do suppress wages as the economist broke down last week.

Immigration to America is down. Wages are up

Are the two related?

www.economist.com

California is in a unique situation of being a sanctuary state and border friendly so you won't have to worry about those strawberry fields anytime soon. Assuming all illegals are halted, the U.S. could ramp up legal immigration for agricultural workers if the demand warranted it.

The article you quoted argues against immigration restrictions on low-skilled migrants, from the early 20th century Chinese labourers to today and considers the benefits for americans shortlived. It even talks about greater demand, bargaining power for skilled foreign workers.

 

[Ottonomous]

Instead of jabbing your capitalist overlords, I think the can't beat em join em strategy works very well:
1) Start your own business, reap their benefits (such as LLC pass through profit being 20% deducted from taxes per 2017 GOP tax cuts). You are already ahead of 95% of the country by having the balls to try.
2) Invest in the S&P. Anytime they screw their workers over, you will benefit as well. That mitigates some of the sting of automation.

So instead of addressing the issues I simply become part of the problem? Why? If I manage to scrape funds and somehow succeed I'll be looking for undocumented migrants to depress wages anyway. You're basically summing up the conservative mindset towards this issue.

 

[JEDIYoda]

So instead of addressing the issues I simply become part of the problem? Why? If I manage to scrape funds and somehow succeed I'll be looking for undocumented migrants to depress wages anyway. You're basically summing up the conservative mindset towards this issue.

The best example is our President and his Mar Lago staff.....lololol

 

[Maxima1]

That doesn't explain the other cities. And, uhh, farmers & ranchers are only 1.3% of the workforce.

My point is that rent going up or down is dependent on supply issues. How could you know that rent being high or trending up means that immigrants didn't suppress wages? Cities generally have the high paying private sector jobs and the public servants asking for $150-200K compensation packages.

If you read the Pew link, you find out that undocumented immigrants are actually a lot more urbanized than the rest of America.

Greenspan is full of shit, as always.

Krugman said as much.

My second negative point is that immigration reduces the wages of domestic workers who compete with immigrants. That’s just supply and demand: we’re talking about large increases in the number of low-skill workers relative to other inputs into production, so it’s inevitable that this means a fall in wages. Mr. Borjas and Mr. Katz have to go through a lot of number-crunching to turn that general proposition into specific estimates of the wage impact, but the general point seems impossible to deny.

gonna have to disagree with greenspan on this one. there's no way income inequality would decrease. if anything it would only be exacerbated. a larger labor supply means employers have little incentive to raise wages due to high competition, so the vast majority of wage-earners would be negatively impacted by a sudden influx of skilled or unskilled earners

another jeff bezos isn't going to magically expatriate to the US and somehow rain down wealth upon the lower 99.99% of earners to bridge that colossal gap, because that's where the gap exists.

the income gap isn't between the median and the 99%, it's between the median and the 99.99% or 99.999%

I'm sure Greenspan also understands the productivity increases in the broader economy. The top is tied up in financial assets, while millions in STEM jobs making more with less overall productivity would be distortionary for others. For example, what priced out the little guy in DC? Wages in the bottom half or even for some college bound paths are difficult to push up.

https://clas.berkeley.edu/research/immigration-economic-benefits-immigration

Highly Educated Immigrants: Contribution to Innovation

"Highly educated immigrants are a huge asset for the U.S. economy, which attracts scientists and engineers from all over the world. One-quarter of the U.S.-based Nobel laureates of the last 50 years were foreign-born, and highly educated immigrants account for about one-third of U.S. innovation. In 2006, immigrants founded 25 percent of new high-tech companies with more than $1 million in sales, generating income and employment for the whole country. Innovation and technological growth are the engines of economic growth in technologically advanced countries like the United States, where attracting and training new scientists and engineers is key to continued economic success. In a recent paper I wrote with Chad Sparber and Kevin Shih, we show that the inflow of STEM workers driven by H-1B visas during the period 1990-2010 explains up to 30 percent of the productivity growth in U.S. cities. This growth has increased per capita income in the United States by 8 percent over the last 20 years. "

 

[s0me0nesmind1]

okay lets us say undocumented aliens do suppress wages!
Yet and I am being truthful.....who is going to pick the strawberries in the strawberry fields in the Salinas Valley? I have lived in that area for over 40 years and I have never seen a white anglo-saxon strawberry picker -- ever!! So please explain how jobs are being stolen from legal americans, when they will not do the work,,,lolol It has nothing to do with wages! The issue is it is plain old hard work bending over all day in the sun!!

"WHO WILL CLEAN MY TOILET!?!""

Normal people with expanded wages for putting up with your shit will do it my silly friend.

If that doesn't work - Robots silly. Robots will pick your fruits and already are: https://www.theguardian.com/technol...t-set-to-work-artificial-intelligence-farming

 

[JEDIYoda]

"WHO WILL CLEAN MY TOILET!?!""

Normally people with expanded wages for putting up with your shit.

If that doesn't work - Robots silly. Robots will pick your fruits and already are: https://www.theguardian.com/technol...t-set-to-work-artificial-intelligence-farming

You are making no sense at all! Better wages are not the answer for everything, skippy!!
There are quite a few jobs that people will do! Regardless of if your shit smells better than someone elses!
It seem,s that the reality of your arguments have nothing to do with wages at all, what it has to do with is the color of somebodys skin.......isn`t that right? Skippy!!

 

[Ottonomous]

You are making no sense at all! Better wages are not the answer for everything, skippy!!
There are quite a few jobs that people will do! Regardless of if your shit smells better than someone elses!
It seem,s that the reality of your arguments have nothing to do with wages at all, what it has to do with is the color of somebodys skin.......isn`t that right? Skippy!!

Its because he's stuck in a rut - He wants higher wages for normal americans doing them jobs (bad for republicans) and he doesn't want illegals doing them either.

He's desperately fighting against republicanism while defending it

 

[JEDIYoda]

Its because he's stuck in a rut - He wants higher wages for normal americans doing them jobs (bad for republicans) and he doesn't want illegals doing them either.

He's desperately fighting against republicanism while defending it

He is caught up in the Republican propoganda that with higher wages people will want to do those jobs that others don`t want to do!
With nothing to back up what his handlers are feeding him...

 

[Ottonomous]

He is caught up in the Republican propoganda that with higher wages people will want to do those jobs that others don`t want to do!
With nothing to back up what his handlers are feeding him...

Maybe he's actually rich and not a temporarily embarrassed millionaire being bogged down by economic migration

Hopefully he'll clear this up with another [handwringing about partisanism is why donald trump will win again and I am a centrist] post

 

[s0me0nesmind1]

Excuse me, but 10% of the population of greater LA is undocumented & rents are exorbitant throughout the region. Every city on this list has a high % of undocumented residents-

Highest Rent In The US By City 2022 | FortuneBuilders

The cities with the highest rent in the US might surprise you. Check out FortuneBuilders' market analysis to see who's on the list in 2022.

www.fortunebuilders.com

First, observe reality. Then create theories that actually explain it.

Calling @fskimospy to educate your peasant of simple economics of NIMBY, high regulations, HCOL, etc - and that they have little to nothing to do with illegal immigrant populations.

Economics 101 is hard, yo!

 

[shortylickens]

ah yes, we want legal immigrants. This coming from a president who hired illegal immigrants at his own resort, told a judge they shouldn't be on the bench because of their Mexican ancestry, and enacted a Muslim ban that totally wasnt a Muslim ban...

Republicans have a NIMBY tendency when it comes to immigrants of the legal AND illegal variety.
They want cheap labor, but they dont like seeing colored people living in their towns. Its a catch-22 for them.

 

[Starbuck1975]

Which does not explain WI, MI & PA voting twice for Obama & then for Trump.

It does if you consider that inelasticity resulted in voters defecting to a pied piper populist.

 

[Jhhnn]

It does if you consider that inelasticity resulted in voters defecting to a pied piper populist.

Ridiculous.

 

[Starbuck1975]

You mean the blatant racist hypocrisy of the Trump admin? Begging for immigrants from the UK after turning away many thousands of asylum seekers who could have been shown some mercy?

It’s a preference to high skilled immigrants versus economic refugees. You’re suggesting that emotion should dictate immigration policy. A good immigration policy can be sensible and compassionate. We currently have neither.