1,200 -- November 16, 2004 -- 608th day

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conjur

No Lifer
Jun 7, 2001
58,686
3
0
Originally posted by: CADsortaGUY
Originally posted by: conjur
Originally posted by: CADsortaGUY
:roll: - this discusion has nothing to do with the Republican party - but it was a nice attempt at a diversion.
You keep trying to pin that on me but just because you keep claiming it - doesn't make it true. conjur was proven wrong, and then so was Bowfinger. So I think you should have said: "I think we are all getting tired of you handing our ass back to us on a silver platter, we simply refuse to accept the truth."

But hey, think what you wish if it feeds your hate...

CsG
BWA HA HA HA HA HA HA HA HA!!


Only in Bizarro world, CsG. Only in Bizarro world.


Come back to reality.
Eh? You made the claim that WMD was the "sole" justification - that is incorrect and you already proved it when you posted the JR - not to mention the other forms/ways the multiple justifications were delivered. I just figured we'd use the JR because it is a legal document that even you couldn't dismiss....but I guess I was wrong about you. Must be the lack of marbles...

CsG
Wow. CsG, you really should take a step back and do some DEEP thinking. Go do a lot of reading on the various deceptions waged by this administration in the run-up to the invasion. You'll find, as I did, that the WMD claim was the sole reason given to the American public, the Senate, and the UN to justify the invasion. No other element was used as justification to request authority for the use of force. It was in Colin Powell's own words, for Christ's sake!!. The Joint Resolution I posted proves my point!

I honestly don't know how you manage to function in today's society by living with such an ability to twist and distort the truth.
 

Red Dawn

Elite Member
Jun 4, 2001
57,530
3
0
Originally posted by: conjur

CsG
Wow. CsG, you really should take a step back and do some DEEP thinking. Go do a lot of reading on the various deceptions waged by this administration in the run-up to the invasion. You'll find, as I did, that the WMD claim was the sole reason given to the American public, the Senate, and the UN to justify the invasion. No other element was used as justification to request authority for the use of force. It was in Colin Powell's own words, for Christ's sake!!. The Joint Resolution I posted proves my point!

I honestly don't know how you manage to function in today's society by living with such an ability to twist and distort the truth.[/quote]
Easy, it's the Internet.
 

CADsortaGUY

Lifer
Oct 19, 2001
25,162
1
76
www.ShawCAD.com
Originally posted by: conjur
Originally posted by: CADsortaGUY
Originally posted by: conjur
Originally posted by: CADsortaGUY
:roll: - this discusion has nothing to do with the Republican party - but it was a nice attempt at a diversion.
You keep trying to pin that on me but just because you keep claiming it - doesn't make it true. conjur was proven wrong, and then so was Bowfinger. So I think you should have said: "I think we are all getting tired of you handing our ass back to us on a silver platter, we simply refuse to accept the truth."

But hey, think what you wish if it feeds your hate...

CsG
BWA HA HA HA HA HA HA HA HA!!


Only in Bizarro world, CsG. Only in Bizarro world.


Come back to reality.
Eh? You made the claim that WMD was the "sole" justification - that is incorrect and you already proved it when you posted the JR - not to mention the other forms/ways the multiple justifications were delivered. I just figured we'd use the JR because it is a legal document that even you couldn't dismiss....but I guess I was wrong about you. Must be the lack of marbles...

CsG
Wow. CsG, you really should take a step back and do some DEEP thinking. Go do a lot of reading on the various deceptions waged by this administration in the run-up to the invasion. You'll find, as I did, that the WMD claim was the sole reason given to the American public, the Senate, and the UN to justify the invasion. No other element was used as justification to request authority for the use of force. It was in Colin Powell's own words, for Christ's sake!!. The Joint Resolution I posted proves my point!

I honestly don't know how you manage to function in today's society by living with such an ability to twist and distort the truth.

*sigh* You don't seem to understand the issue here conjur. Lets try it one more time. You claimed that WMD was the "sole" justification. It was clearly NOT the "sole" (meaning singular) justification for removing Saddam. I've already addressed the "selling" issue in this thread a couple times and it is irrelevant to the subject of justifications. Just because you can or can't sell something doesn't mean something is just or unjust. Also, just because you sell the wrong justification - doesn't mean that the other ones weren't present or viable.

Now yes - it's time for you to take some time to step back and take some time to reassess your hatred of Bush. You don't have to like him, hell you can disagree all you want but you've let it consume you - which can't be healthy.

CsG
 

conjur

No Lifer
Jun 7, 2001
58,686
3
0
Will you never accept the truth, CsG?

Doesn't seem like it. Go on telling yourself Bush invaded because of humanitarian abuses or whatever else helps you maintain a clear conscience over the deaths of tens of thousands of innocent Iraqis and over 1,200 American soldiers.
 

CADsortaGUY

Lifer
Oct 19, 2001
25,162
1
76
www.ShawCAD.com
N
Originally posted by: Red Dawn
Originally posted by: CADsortaGUY
Originally posted by: Red Dawn
Originally posted by: CADsortaGUY
Originally posted by: Red Dawn
Without the inclusion of the false claim of vast stockpiles of WMDs there is no way the Dub would have been able to garner enough support from the American Public for his ill advised excellent adventure in Iraq period!

That may be correct and you can hold that opinion -but what it doesn't change is the fact that there were many justifications for removing Saddam- many of which would stand on their own. Ofcourse sometimes garnering support is tough despite viable justification.

Csg
Misleading the American Public to garmer support for what a minority believes is justifiable action is never right!

But it also doesn't mean the action is "unjust" or right.

CsG
I guess that depends on your perspective. It does seem to have been unwise.

That may be in your opinion, but again others disagree and infact the other justifications present in this case have been used in the past to take action. Just because you don't think it was wise -doesn't mean the justifications didn't exist.(the fact that conjur refuses to accept)

CsG
 

CADsortaGUY

Lifer
Oct 19, 2001
25,162
1
76
www.ShawCAD.com
Originally posted by: conjur
Will you never accept the truth, CsG?

Doesn't seem like it. Go on telling yourself Bush invaded because of humanitarian abuses or whatever else helps you maintain a clear conscience over the deaths of tens of thousands of innocent Iraqis and over 1,200 American soldiers.

I've already accepted the truth. However you seem to continue to believe a lie. There we many justifications present - despite your continued ignorance.

CsG
 

Red Dawn

Elite Member
Jun 4, 2001
57,530
3
0
Originally posted by: CADsortaGUY
N
Originally posted by: Red Dawn
Originally posted by: CADsortaGUY
Originally posted by: Red Dawn
Originally posted by: CADsortaGUY
Originally posted by: Red Dawn
Without the inclusion of the false claim of vast stockpiles of WMDs there is no way the Dub would have been able to garner enough support from the American Public for his ill advised excellent adventure in Iraq period!

That may be correct and you can hold that opinion -but what it doesn't change is the fact that there were many justifications for removing Saddam- many of which would stand on their own. Ofcourse sometimes garnering support is tough despite viable justification.

Csg
Misleading the American Public to garmer support for what a minority believes is justifiable action is never right!

But it also doesn't mean the action is "unjust" or right.

CsG
I guess that depends on your perspective. It does seem to have been unwise.

That may be in your opinion, but again others disagree and infact the other justifications present in this case have been used in the past to take action. Just because you don't think it was wise -doesn't mean the justifications didn't exist.(the fact that conjur refuses to accept)

CsG
Give me some examples please!

 

dmcowen674

No Lifer
Oct 13, 1999
54,894
47
91
www.alienbabeltech.com
Originally posted by: conjur
Will you never accept the truth, CsG?

Doesn't seem like it. Go on telling yourself Bush invaded because of humanitarian abuses or whatever else helps you maintain a clear conscience over the deaths of tens of thousands of innocent Iraqis and over 1,200 American soldiers.

It's not just one guy, 51% of the Country agree and the other 49% along for the ride.
 

Infohawk

Lifer
Jan 12, 2002
17,844
1
0
Originally posted by: dmcowen674
It's not just one guy, 51% of the Country agree and the other 49% along for the ride.

There is a difference. Most people just don't know the facts, as the PIPA study shows (they're ignorant). Csg on the other hand refuses to accept what is presented to him. This is willfull ignorance. Take his claim that there are WMDs in Iraq... I contend that is borderline insanity.
 

CADsortaGUY

Lifer
Oct 19, 2001
25,162
1
76
www.ShawCAD.com
Originally posted by: Red Dawn
Originally posted by: CADsortaGUY
N
Originally posted by: Red Dawn
Originally posted by: CADsortaGUY
Originally posted by: Red Dawn
Originally posted by: CADsortaGUY
Originally posted by: Red Dawn
Without the inclusion of the false claim of vast stockpiles of WMDs there is no way the Dub would have been able to garner enough support from the American Public for his ill advised excellent adventure in Iraq period!

That may be correct and you can hold that opinion -but what it doesn't change is the fact that there were many justifications for removing Saddam- many of which would stand on their own. Ofcourse sometimes garnering support is tough despite viable justification.

Csg
Misleading the American Public to garmer support for what a minority believes is justifiable action is never right!

But it also doesn't mean the action is "unjust" or right.

CsG
I guess that depends on your perspective. It does seem to have been unwise.

That may be in your opinion, but again others disagree and infact the other justifications present in this case have been used in the past to take action. Just because you don't think it was wise -doesn't mean the justifications didn't exist.(the fact that conjur refuses to accept)

CsG
Give me some examples please!

Oh maybe .... Bosnia?
In fulfilling this mission, we will have the chance to help stop the killing of innocent civilians, especially children, and at the same time, to bring stability to central Europe, a region of the world that is vital to our national interests. It is the right thing to do.
- Clinton

CsG
 

Red Dawn

Elite Member
Jun 4, 2001
57,530
3
0
Originally posted by: CADsortaGUY

Oh maybe .... Bosnia?
In fulfilling this mission, we will have the chance to help stop the killing of innocent civilians, especially children, and at the same time, to bring stability to central Europe, a region of the world that is vital to our national interests. It is the right thing to do.
- Clinton

CsG
Funny, I don't recall us invading Bosnia and overthrowing their government.
 

dmcowen674

No Lifer
Oct 13, 1999
54,894
47
91
www.alienbabeltech.com
Originally posted by: Infohawk
Originally posted by: dmcowen674
It's not just one guy, 51% of the Country agree and the other 49% along for the ride.

There is a difference. Most people just don't know the facts, as the PIPA study shows (they're ignorant). Csg on the other hand refuses to accept what is presented to him. This is willfull ignorance. Take his claim that there are WMDs in Iraq... I contend that is borderline insanity.

No unfortunately it is not "willfull ignorance". It is the New America.

It is a reality 49% of the Country is trying to figure out either how to live with it or without.

 

CADsortaGUY

Lifer
Oct 19, 2001
25,162
1
76
www.ShawCAD.com
Originally posted by: Red Dawn
Originally posted by: CADsortaGUY

Oh maybe .... Bosnia?
In fulfilling this mission, we will have the chance to help stop the killing of innocent civilians, especially children, and at the same time, to bring stability to central Europe, a region of the world that is vital to our national interests. It is the right thing to do.
- Clinton

CsG
Funny, I don't recall us invading Bosnia and overthrowing their government.

Funny, I didn't say we did. However we did take action and sent troops.(is it Christmas yet? )

CsG
 

conjur

No Lifer
Jun 7, 2001
58,686
3
0
Originally posted by: Red Dawn
Originally posted by: CADsortaGUY

Oh maybe .... Bosnia?
In fulfilling this mission, we will have the chance to help stop the killing of innocent civilians, especially children, and at the same time, to bring stability to central Europe, a region of the world that is vital to our national interests. It is the right thing to do.
- Clinton

CsG
Funny, I don't recall us invading Bosnia and overthrowing their government.
Hmm...me either.

And, if that's the case that humanitarian reasons are enough to invade a country, why aren't we invading North Korea, Cuba, and/or Sudan?
 

Red Dawn

Elite Member
Jun 4, 2001
57,530
3
0
Originally posted by: CADsortaGUY
Originally posted by: Red Dawn
Originally posted by: CADsortaGUY

Oh maybe .... Bosnia?
In fulfilling this mission, we will have the chance to help stop the killing of innocent civilians, especially children, and at the same time, to bring stability to central Europe, a region of the world that is vital to our national interests. It is the right thing to do.
- Clinton

CsG
Funny, I don't recall us invading Bosnia and overthrowing their government.

Funny, I didn't say we did. However we did take action and sent troops.(is it Christmas yet? )

CsG

There is no comparison then.
 

BBond

Diamond Member
Oct 3, 2004
8,363
0
0
Originally posted by: Red Dawn
Originally posted by: CADsortaGUY
Originally posted by: Red Dawn
Originally posted by: CADsortaGUY

Oh maybe .... Bosnia?
In fulfilling this mission, we will have the chance to help stop the killing of innocent civilians, especially children, and at the same time, to bring stability to central Europe, a region of the world that is vital to our national interests. It is the right thing to do.
- Clinton

CsG
Funny, I don't recall us invading Bosnia and overthrowing their government.

Funny, I didn't say we did. However we did take action and sent troops.(is it Christmas yet? )

CsG

There is no comparison then.

Invalid comparisons, ignoring the truth, and making unsubstantiated claims don't seem to phase CsG.

When the facts are against you, just toss out something unrelated, ignore the facts, or make a broad claim to obfuscate the matter. That's the ticket.

 

conjur

No Lifer
Jun 7, 2001
58,686
3
0
Originally posted by: Red Dawn
Originally posted by: CADsortaGUY
Originally posted by: Red Dawn
Funny, I don't recall us invading Bosnia and overthrowing their government.
Funny, I didn't say we did. However we did take action and sent troops.(is it Christmas yet? )

CsG
There is no comparison then.
In his mind there is, though. That's the sad part.
 

CADsortaGUY

Lifer
Oct 19, 2001
25,162
1
76
www.ShawCAD.com
Originally posted by: Red Dawn
Originally posted by: CADsortaGUY
Originally posted by: Red Dawn
Originally posted by: CADsortaGUY

Oh maybe .... Bosnia?
In fulfilling this mission, we will have the chance to help stop the killing of innocent civilians, especially children, and at the same time, to bring stability to central Europe, a region of the world that is vital to our national interests. It is the right thing to do.
- Clinton

CsG
Funny, I don't recall us invading Bosnia and overthrowing their government.

Funny, I didn't say we did. However we did take action and sent troops.(is it Christmas yet? )

CsG

There is no comparison then.

Again, you don't seem to be making the connection. This is about justifications and action taken. Like I said - there were multiple justifications given -some would stand on their own as we've used those justifications to take action before. Bosnia is just one example of it. Granted you can claim the scale is different but it doesn't change the FACT that the justifications have been used to act.

CsG
 

conjur

No Lifer
Jun 7, 2001
58,686
3
0
Originally posted by: CADsortaGUY
Originally posted by: Red Dawn
There is no comparison then.
Again, you don't seem to be making the connection. This is about justifications and action taken. Like I said - there were multiple justifications given -some would stand on their own as we've used those justifications to take action before. Bosnia is just one example of it. Granted you can claim the scale is different but it doesn't change the FACT that the justifications have been used to act.

CsG
Yeah, come on, Red Dawn! Don't you know everything is black and white and all comparisons are valid because CsG says so? Wake up and smell the Kool-Aid, Red!
 

Red Dawn

Elite Member
Jun 4, 2001
57,530
3
0
Originally posted by: CADsortaGUY
Originally posted by: Red Dawn
Originally posted by: CADsortaGUY
Originally posted by: Red Dawn
Originally posted by: CADsortaGUY

Oh maybe .... Bosnia?
In fulfilling this mission, we will have the chance to help stop the killing of innocent civilians, especially children, and at the same time, to bring stability to central Europe, a region of the world that is vital to our national interests. It is the right thing to do.
- Clinton

CsG
Funny, I don't recall us invading Bosnia and overthrowing their government.

Funny, I didn't say we did. However we did take action and sent troops.(is it Christmas yet? )

CsG

There is no comparison then.

Again, you don't seem to be making the connection. This is about justifications and action taken. Like I said - there were multiple justifications given -some would stand on their own as we've used those justifications to take action before. Bosnia is just one example of it. Granted you can claim the scale is different but it doesn't change the FACT that the justifications have been used to act.

CsG
Justification to take actions but not to wage all out war and overthrow a government by military force.
 

CADsortaGUY

Lifer
Oct 19, 2001
25,162
1
76
www.ShawCAD.com
Originally posted by: conjur
Originally posted by: CADsortaGUY
Originally posted by: Red Dawn
There is no comparison then.
Again, you don't seem to be making the connection. This is about justifications and action taken. Like I said - there were multiple justifications given -some would stand on their own as we've used those justifications to take action before. Bosnia is just one example of it. Granted you can claim the scale is different but it doesn't change the FACT that the justifications have been used to act.

CsG
Yeah, come on, Red Dawn! Don't you know everything is black and white and all comparisons are valid because CsG says so? Wake up and smell the Kool-Aid, Red!

Ah yes - you mean your black/white justification stance? Hmmm....Yeah. You can't accept the fact that WMD was not the "sole" justification. Who's drinking "Kool-Aid"...?

CsG
 

BBond

Diamond Member
Oct 3, 2004
8,363
0
0
Originally posted by: CADsortaGUY
Originally posted by: conjur
Originally posted by: CADsortaGUY
Originally posted by: Red Dawn
There is no comparison then.
Again, you don't seem to be making the connection. This is about justifications and action taken. Like I said - there were multiple justifications given -some would stand on their own as we've used those justifications to take action before. Bosnia is just one example of it. Granted you can claim the scale is different but it doesn't change the FACT that the justifications have been used to act.

CsG
Yeah, come on, Red Dawn! Don't you know everything is black and white and all comparisons are valid because CsG says so? Wake up and smell the Kool-Aid, Red!

Ah yes - you mean your black/white justification stance? Hmmm....Yeah. You can't accept the fact that WMD was not the "sole" justification. Who's drinking "Kool-Aid"...?

CsG

I Googled for quotes Bush used to justify his unprovoked attack on Iraq. I found an article by John Dean at Findlaw. It contains several quotes from Bush speeches prior to his unnecessary invasion.

If you can find some quotes to support your contention please post them.

Missing Weapons Of Mass Destruction:

Is Lying About The Reason For War An Impeachable Offense?
By JOHN W. DEAN
----
Friday, Jun. 06, 2003

President George W. Bush has got a very serious problem. Before asking Congress for a Joint Resolution authorizing the use of American military forces in Iraq, he made a number of unequivocal statements about the reason the United States needed to pursue the most radical actions any nation can undertake - acts of war against another nation.

Now it is clear that many of his statements appear to be false. In the past, Bush's White House has been very good at sweeping ugly issues like this under the carpet, and out of sight. But it is not clear that they will be able to make the question of what happened to Saddam Hussein's weapons of mass destruction (WMDs) go away - unless, perhaps, they start another war.

That seems unlikely. Until the questions surrounding the Iraqi war are answered, Congress and the public may strongly resist more of President Bush's warmaking.

Presidential statements, particularly on matters of national security, are held to an expectation of the highest standard of truthfulness. A president cannot stretch, twist or distort facts and get away with it. President Lyndon Johnson's distortions of the truth about Vietnam forced him to stand down from reelection. President Richard Nixon's false statements about Watergate forced his resignation.

Frankly, I hope the WMDs are found, for it will end the matter. Clearly, the story of the missing WMDs is far from over. And it is too early, of course, to draw conclusions. But it is not too early to explore the relevant issues.

President Bush's Statements On Iraq's Weapons Of Mass Destruction

Readers may not recall exactly what President Bush said about weapons of mass destruction; I certainly didn't. Thus, I have compiled these statements below. In reviewing them, I saw that he had, indeed, been as explicit and declarative as I had recalled.

Bush's statements, in chronological order, were:

"Right now, Iraq is expanding and improving facilities that were used for the production of biological weapons."

United Nations Address
September 12, 2002

"Iraq has stockpiled biological and chemical weapons, and is rebuilding the facilities used to make more of those weapons."

"We have sources that tell us that Saddam Hussein recently authorized Iraqi field commanders to use chemical weapons -- the very weapons the dictator tells us he does not have."

Radio Address
October 5, 2002

"The Iraqi regime . . . possesses and produces chemical and biological weapons. It is seeking nuclear weapons."

"We know that the regime has produced thousands of tons of chemical agents, including mustard gas, sarin nerve gas, VX nerve gas."

"We've also discovered through intelligence that Iraq has a growing fleet of manned and unmanned aerial vehicles that could be used to disperse chemical or biological weapons across broad areas. We're concerned that Iraq is exploring ways of using these UAVS for missions targeting the United States."

"The evidence indicates that Iraq is reconstituting its nuclear weapons program. Saddam Hussein has held numerous meetings with Iraqi nuclear scientists, a group he calls his "nuclear mujahideen" - his nuclear holy warriors. Satellite photographs reveal that Iraq is rebuilding facilities at sites that have been part of its nuclear program in the past. Iraq has attempted to purchase high-strength aluminum tubes and other equipment needed for gas centrifuges, which are used to enrich uranium for nuclear weapons."

Cincinnati, Ohio Speech
October 7, 2002

"Our intelligence officials estimate that Saddam Hussein had the materials to produce as much as 500 tons of sarin, mustard and VX nerve agent."

State of the Union Address
January 28, 2003

"Intelligence gathered by this and other governments leaves no doubt that the Iraq regime continues to possess and conceal some of the most lethal weapons ever devised."

Address to the Nation
March 17, 2003


Dean provides more of his opinions at the link. I am more interested in Bush's quotes which form the bare factual basis that leads the fact based among us to make our claim; Bush misled America to invade Iraq by lying about Saddam's WMD and the grave and gathering threat Saddam projected. Statements which are clearly lies and which were contained the charge Bush told America was the reason we needed to immediately conduct naked aggression against Iraq -- WMD.

Other members of his administration, Condoleeza Rice, Donald Rumsfeld, Colin Powell, and Dick Cheney made similar statements as well.

If you have any direct quotes you'd like to share with us, CsG, please do so.



 
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