1,200 -- November 16, 2004 -- 608th day

[Alistar7]

http://www.iraqcoalition.org/p...40224_mass_graves.html

We've already discovered just so far the remains of 400,000 people in mass graves," said British Prime Minister Tony Blair on November 20 in London. The United Nations, the U.S. State Department, Amnesty International, and Human Rights Watch (HRW) all estimate that Saddam Hussein's regime murdered hundreds of thousands of innocent people. "Human Rights Watch estimates that as many as 290,000 Iraqis have been 'disappeared' by the Iraqi government over the past two decades," said the group in a statement in May. "Many of these 'disappeared' are those whose remains are now being unearthed in mass graves all over Iraq."

 

[conjur]

The CPA?? You expect me to believe a puppet government's propaganda??

 

[Alistar7]

I see the 300,000 ESTIMATE all overt the web, it WAS considered the LOWEST one possible. So you still cling to an old ESTIMATE that was the LOWEST, but when it comes to the US you cling to the HIGHEST ESTIMATE of 100,000, even after it has been proven completely unreliable. A door to door aurevery, LMAO, what a joke.

The US did not condone or ignore those deaths, the UN ended their mandate in the Gulf War and had assumed responsiblity over Saddam.

So you will dismiss the 400,000 ACTUAL REMAINS OF PEOPLE because the report came from a "puppet govt". A door to door survery is more accurate than a body count or actual remains in your opinion.

 

[conjur]

http://users.erols.com/mwhite28/warstat3.htm#sadhus

Iraq, Saddam Hussein (1979-2003): 300 000
Human Rights Watch: "twenty-five years of Ba`th Party rule ... murdered or 'disappeared' some quarter of a million Iraqis" [http://www.hrw.org/wr2k4/3.htm]
8/9 Dec. 2003 AP: Total murders
New survey estimates 61,000 residents of Baghdad executed by Saddam.
US Government estimates a total of 300,000 murders
180,000 Kurds k. in Anfal
60,000 Shiites in 1991
50,000 misc. others executed
"Human rights officials" est.: 500,000
Iraqi politicians: over a million
[These don't include the million or so dead in the Iran-Iraq War.]

 

[Alistar7]

Nice ESTIMATES conjur, too bad they have 400,000 ACTUAL BODIES ALREADY. Now that we have shown those estimates CANNOT be accurate maybe you will answer my question about the million + that died during sanctions, who was resposnible. Remember Saddam was in control and had the humaitarian aid available to prevent those deaths.

The US protected the Kurds for 10+ years from Saddam helping them establish a free democratic society. The humanitarian crisis that caused those deaths was not an issue in Kurdish areas the US controlled in Iraq, only in the regions Saddam controlled.

 

[smashp]

Originally posted by: Alistar7
Nice ESTIMATES conjur, too bad they have 400,000 ACTUAL BODIES ALREADY. Now that we have shown those estimates CANNOT be accurate maybe you will answer my question about the million + that died during sanctions, who was resposnible. Remember Saddam was in control and had the humaitarian aid available to prevent those deaths.

when you give a $100 bill to a homeless Crack whore for food, i bet you expect thats what she uses it for.

 

[conjur]

Originally posted by: Alistar7
Nice ESTIMATES conjur, too bad they have 400,000 ACTUAL BODIES ALREADY. Now that we have shown those estimates CANNOT be accurate maybe you will answer my question about the million + that died during sanctions, who was resposnible. Remember Saddam was in control and had the humaitarian aid available to prevent those deaths.

The only thing mentioned in there about 400,000 is a comment from Blair that up to 400,000 may have been found.

That's hardly proof.

Besides, if that's the case, more than half were killed during incidents either condoned by the U.S. or ignored after the U.S. encouraged Iraqis to rebel against Saddam in 1991 and then left them to be slaughtered.

 

[Alistar7]

"We've already discovered just so far the remains of 400,000 people in mass graves," said British Prime Minister Tony Blair on November 20 in London."

He didnt say we MAYBE have found that many. You really need to stop using lies to make your case against the US conjur or be willing to back it up eventually.

Prove to me the US had the AUTHORITY and RESPONSIBILITY to protect those people from Saddam, and then I will believe they condoned or ignored them.

 

[Alistar7]

Your agurement is horribly weak in either case, you are trying to blame the US for Saddan intenionally killing people. That is another key point you must keep your feeble mind from realizing, Saddam killed those people INTENTIONALLY with willfull action on his part, not directed by the US.

Maybe you will answer my question about who is responsible for the 1,000,000+ that died during sanctions.

 

[conjur]

Originally posted by: Alistar7
"We've already discovered just so far the remains of 400,000 people in mass graves," said British Prime Minister Tony Blair on November 20 in London."

He didnt say we MAYBE have found that many. You really need to stop using lies to make your case against the US conjur or be willing to back it up eventually.

Prove to me the US had the AUTHORITY and RESPONSIBILITY to protect those people from Saddam, and then I will believe they condoned or ignored them.

All we have is a statement from Blair. That is not proof.

As for the 1988 Kurdish slaughter, that was at the end of the Iran/Iraq war when the U.S. was allied with Saddam. What did we do about that slaughter? Not a damn thing. And, Saddam used weapons and intelligence provided by the U.S. in those attacks and in chemical attacks against the Iranians.

As for the post-Gulf War slaughters by Saddam of Kurds and Shiites, the U.S. encouraged them to rebel against Saddam and then left them to die as we couldn't offer military assistance. Not a wise bit of advice to them, eh? Esp. considering the U.S. didn't wipe out the Republican Guard.

 

[Alistar7]

The US was not the only country that gave the WMD he used against his own people, the fact we were one of them AND did nothing to stop their use is indefensible, I agree.

Now where is the proof the US had the authority and responsibilty to protect those killed after the Gulf War? I know what happened, I just don't use lies and spin to make my case, unlike yourself.

I guess even you can't spin the 1,000,000+ Saddam that died when it was clearly Saddam that was responsible.

 

[conjur]

Originally posted by: Alistar7
The US was not the only country that gave the WMD he used against his own people, the fact we were one of them AND did nothing to stop their use is indefensible, I agree.

Now where is the proof the US had the authority and responsibilty to protect those killed after the Gulf War? I know what happened, I just don't use lies and spin to make my case, unlike yourself.

I guess even you can't spin the 1,000,000+ Saddam that died when it was clearly Saddam that was responsible.

Please read my previous post again.


Here, I'll quote the pertinent part again:

As for the post-Gulf War slaughters by Saddam of Kurds and Shiites, the U.S. encouraged them to rebel against Saddam and then left them to die as we couldn't offer military assistance. Not a wise bit of advice to them, eh? Esp. considering the U.S. didn't wipe out the Republican Guard.

 

[Alistar7]

http://washingtontimes.com/upi...41013-073535-6643r.htm

Hatra, Iraq, Oct. 13 (UPI) -- Investigators have unearthed a mass grave in northern Iraq containing hundreds of bodies of women and children believed killed in the 1980s.

The body of one woman was found still clutching a baby. The infant had been shot in the back of the head and the woman in the face, the BBC reported

I guess those were not ones the US urged to rise up and then abandoned, I also think at least those two were not victims of WMD.

 

[Alistar7]

So you are admitting the US was not responsible for protecting those people nor did they condone the attacks. Who was responsible in protecting them, the UN or Saddam? Who was responsible for their murder? Who was responsible for the deaths oof 1,000,000+ Iraqis during sanctions?

 

[Alistar7]

Conjur, the sad part is even I am aware of specific situations in which the US had the ability to impact some of these events and prevent some of these murders. IMO they also had a responsibility but that's just my opinion. I can make a good case against the US, or at least show FACTUAL evidence where their specific actions directly gave Saddam the chance to kill again, why can't you?

 

[conjur]

Originally posted by: Alistar7
Conjur, the sad part is even I am aware of specific situations in which the US had the ability to impact some of these events and prevent some of these murders. IMO they also had a responsibility but that's just my opinion. I can make a good case against the US, or at least show FACTUAL evidence where their specific actions directly gave Saddam the chance to kill again, why can't you?

Because I have. It's that you are like your obfuscator buddy, CsG, and refuse to recognize facts that oppose your viewpoints.


I never disputed the fact that Saddam murdered innocents outside of quelling rebellions. You seem to think I have, though. In the end, none of that matters as none of that was used as a justification to invade Iraq.

 

[Alistar7]

http://www.state.gov/g/drl/rls/27000.htm

"The 1988 Anfal campaign, during which as many as 182,000 people disappeared. Most of the men were separated from their families and were executed in deserts in the west and southwest of Iraq. The remains of some of their wives and children have also been found in mass graves."

Now victims of US supplied WMD, just brutally murdered men, women, and children.

 

[Alistar7]

http://www.iraqcoalition.org/h...s/iraq_mass_graves.pdf

?We?ve already discovered just so far the remains of 400,000 people in mass graves,? said British Prime
Minister Tony Blair on November 20 in London. The United Nations, the U.S. State Department, Amnesty International, and Human Rights Watch (HRW) all estimate that Saddam Hussein?s regime murdered hundreds of thousands of innocent people. ?Human Rights Watch estimates that as many as 290,000 Iraqis have been ?disappeared? by the Iraqi government over the past two decades,? said the group in a statement in May. ?Many of these ?disappeared? are those whose remains are now being unearthed in mass graves all over Iraq.?

 

[Alistar7]

If these numbers prove accurate, they represent a crime against humanity surpassed only by the Rwandan genocide of 1994, Pol Pot?s Cambodian killing fields in the 1970s, and the Nazi Holocaust of World War II. collection cities that still dot the plains between Kirkuk and Sulaymaniyah. It was a crime so staggering that, without hard evidence of bodies to back it up, many refused to believe it possible."

So if Saddam ONLY killed 300,000 it was still a crime against humanity on those proportions. According to your opinion that alone was not justification of removing Saddam, and in turn it would not be justification enough to remove Hitler.

 

[Alistar7]

You have given no evidence to back up your lies, because you cannot. You can't even answer basic questions about who was responsible for protecting the Iraqis who were killed without proving yourself wrong. I have addressed and shown to be false every one of your statements, you ignore almost all of mine.

Who was responsible in protecting them, the UN, the US, or Saddam? Who was responsible for their murder? Who was responsible for the deaths of 1,000,000+ Iraqis during sanctions?

 

[conjur]

Originally posted by: Alistar7
If these numbers prove accurate, they represent a crime against humanity surpassed only by the Rwandan genocide of 1994, Pol Pot?s Cambodian killing fields in the 1970s, and the Nazi Holocaust of World War II. collection cities that still dot the plains between Kirkuk and Sulaymaniyah. It was a crime so staggering that, without hard evidence of bodies to back it up, many refused to believe it possible."

So if Saddam ONLY killed 300,000 it was still a crime against humanity on those proportions. According to your opinion that alone was not justification of removing Saddam, and in turn it would not be justification enough to remove Hitler.

But you again fail to realize the bulk of that 300,000 was in three incidents: Kurds in 1988, and Kurds and Shiites in 1991. We've been over this.

<sigh>


And...easy on the Post button. Sheesh.

 

[Alistar7]

And the holocaust was ONE incident, your point?

I am sorry for the multiple posts, for some reason I can't put more than 1-2 paragraphs in one post and have it upload. ??????????????

My point was no matter how many incidents, over how much time, still is one of the most prolific examples of genocide in human history. (they left out the native americans though)

 

[conjur]

Originally posted by: Alistar7
And the holocaust was ONE incident, your point?

What does that invalid comparison have to do with this?

I am sorry for the multiple posts, for some reason I can't put more than 1-2 paragraphs in one post and have it upload. ??????????????

Then try a different browser, try the QuickReply, or PM a mod. It's getting annoying.

 

[Alistar7]

Same information would still be presented, what difference does it make?

I think I'm done with you, you have been shown that Saddam perpepuated one of the worst crimes against humanity in the history of the world. If you wish to bleat about WHY the US took action or place the blame for every death on our feet, that's your problem. Why are you not happy the genocide has ended, another Hitler is out of power?

 

[conjur]

Originally posted by: Alistar7
Same information would still be presented, what difference does it make?

I think I'm done with you, you have been shown that Saddam perpepuated one of the worst crimes against humanity in the history of the world. If you wish to bleat about WHY the US took action or place the blame for every death on our feet, that's your problem. Why are you not happy the genocide has ended, another Hitler is out of power?

Ah, more projection and putting words in my mouth. A sure sign of the losing end of a debate.