1 in 5 undergrads support violence to stop speech they don't like.

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bshole

Diamond Member
Mar 12, 2013
8,315
1,215
126
and we've come full circle.
conservatives will argue in defense of nazis. not surprised. We need a lot of greatest generationers to climb out of their graves and school you little bitches about the way the world works.

The "greatest" generation was also the most anti-semitic generation. Their views on Jewish people were much more in line with the Nazis than that of present day Americans. They did not like Jews and they certainly didn't want them coming to America. There is a reason that an overwhelming majority of Americans in that era rejected opening the doors to Jews attempting to flee Hitler's holocaust.

Ironically, the horror of the holocaust apparently gutted the popular acceptance of anti-antisemitism in America. It has been greatly marginalized since that time. I don't think it is possible to find an era in American history where groups weren't marginalized or attacked. African Americans and Native Americans would obviously be at the top of the list but the list is extremely long (Italians and Irish were high on the list at one time).

Antisemitism in America reached its peak during the interwar period.[ The rise of the Ku Klux Klan in the 1920s, the antisemitic works of Henry Ford, and the radio speeches of Father Coughlin in the late 1930s indicated the strength of attacks on the Jewish community.

One element in American antisemitism during the 1920s was the identification of Jews with Bolshevism where the concept of Bolshevism was used pejoratively in the country. (see article on "Jewish Bolshevism").

Immigration legislation enacted in the United States in 1921 and 1924 was interpreted widely as being at least partly anti-Jewish in intent because it strictly limited the immigration quotas of eastern European nations with large Jewish populations, nations from which approximately 3 million Jews had immigrated to the United States by 1920.
 

Atreus21

Lifer
Aug 21, 2007
12,007
572
126
well, I already outed your little anti-semitic saint up there, so we're not going to be listening much to a man that tolerated Hitler up to the point that he never new what Hitler did to this world.

Wow. Did you do 15 seconds of googling and seize upon the first thing that cast the man in a negative light? How old are you anyway?

You go do yourself a favor and think about the paradox of tolerance. Popper had a far greater grasp on the realities of the world and the very real limits of free speech (that this country endorses--you knew that, right?).

I think I probably know them better than you evidently. The limits on free speech involve overt threats or incitements to violence - things that directly encourage physical harm. Not shutting down opinions you don't like.

In your defense of freedoms that no one has, you support the Nazis.

Again, you've forced me to either abandon free speech as a principle or defend American Nazis' right to it. I'm sorry but you've left me no better alternative.

Go fuck yourself.

Man. There are people worth arguing with and then there are these sorts. Oh well.
 

JSt0rm

Lifer
Sep 5, 2000
27,399
3,947
126
I like how Atreus is defending hitler and nazis now. Conservatives were all about being patriots but our mortal enemies - nazis them folk should be able to voice thier opinion.
 

Atreus21

Lifer
Aug 21, 2007
12,007
572
126
I like how Atreus is defending hitler and nazis now. Conservatives were all about being patriots but our mortal enemies - nazis them folk should be able to voice thier opinion.

Again:

Progressives have forced conservatives to either abandon free speech principles or defend American nazis' freedom of speech.

Of course we're not going to abandon freedom of speech. Neither would any adult with a brain and a shred of integrity. For progressives then to accuse us of defending nazis is pathetic, dishonest, hilarious, and childish all at once.
 

shortylickens

No Lifer
Jul 15, 2003
82,854
17,365
136
was just watching the Dog Whisperer episode of South Park. I think we should treat Nazis like spoiled bratty children, because basically that's what they are.

Instead of using violence (which merely acknowledges or validates their behavior) we need to instead be dominant. Otherwise we just encourage assholery. I don't know how to fix them on the national level but anger and hostility doesn't seem to be helping the problem at all.
 

Atreus21

Lifer
Aug 21, 2007
12,007
572
126
Nazism is not an "unpopular idea" that is fundamentally protected by free speech. It is fucking evil. It is eugenics, it is subjugation, and it is pure genocide.

To answer your first sentence. Uh, yes it is. It is definitely protected by free speech. Evil speech is protected, unless it directly and clearly calls for violence. Just ask the SCOTUS how it ruled on this exact question numerous times. Such as the KKK. Or the Westboro Baptist Church. Jesus Christ, and you accuse me of being ignorant of history?
 

shortylickens

No Lifer
Jul 15, 2003
82,854
17,365
136
If it were mere speech it would not be an issue. But they held a protest, brought weapons, intimidated people, and eventually one of them jumped in his car and mowed down a bunch of folks and killed one.

THATS A FUCKING CRIME! AND THEY ALWAYS DO IT! They always end up causing real problems! Thats why nazis should not be allowed to organize and protest and mass up. They always make problems. They're a hate group and they promote real world violence.
 

Atreus21

Lifer
Aug 21, 2007
12,007
572
126
If it were mere speech it would not be an issue. But they held a protest, brought weapons, intimidated people, and eventually one of them jumped in his car and mowed down a bunch of folks and killed one.

THATS A FUCKING CRIME YOU DIPSTICK!

Assuming you're addressing me:

No shit! It's a crime to run people over?! I had no idea!

You know what it wasn't? Anything to do with the point. Until that guy murdered someone he'd done nothing illegal. Until they use those weapons they've done nothing illegal. Just ask the guys from the Black Panthers who showed up to the voting place in 2008.

How is this relevant? We're talking about freedom of speech, not murder.
 

bshole

Diamond Member
Mar 12, 2013
8,315
1,215
126
Here is an interesting take on this...

If you were to listen to scholars like Richard Delgado, the response should be to pass laws, to put people in jail, to do whatever it takes to stop the Nazi contagion from spreading. It’s a popular argument in Europe and in legal scholarship, but not in American courts.

There are a few problems with this response that free speech advocates have long recognized. For one, it doesn’t necessarily work; since the passage of Holocaust denial and anti-Semitism laws in Europe, rates of anti-Semitism remain higher than in the U.S., where no such laws exist. In fact, the Anti-Defamation League found that rates of anti-Semitism have gone down in America since it first began measuring anti-Semitic attitudes in 1964.

What’s more, in the 1920s and 30s, Nazis did go to jail for anti-Semitic expression, and when they were released, they were celebrated as martyrs. When Bavarian authorities banned speeches by Hitler in 1925, for example, the Nazis exploited it. As former ACLU Executive Director Aryeh Neier explains in his book Defending My Enemy, the Nazi party protested the ban by distributing a picture of Hitler gagged with the caption, “One alone of 2,000 million people of the world is forbidden to speak in Germany.” The ban backfired and became a publicity coup. It was soon lifted.

We cannot forget, too, that laws have to be enforced by people. In the 1920s and early 30s, such laws would have placed the power to censor in the hands of a population that voted in large numbers for Nazis. And after 1933, such laws would have placed that power to censor in the hands of Hitler himself. Consider how such power might be used by the politician you most distrust. Consider how it is currently being used by Vladimir Putin in Russia.

What does history suggest as the best course of action to win the benefits of an open society while stemming the tide of authoritarians of any stripe? It tells us to have a high tolerance for differing opinions, and no tolerance for political violence. What distinguishes liberal societies from illiberal ones is that liberal societies use words, not violence or censorship to settle disputes. As Neier, a Holocaust survivor, concluded in his book, “The lesson of Germany in the 1920s is that a free society cannot be established and maintained if it will not act vigorously and forcefully to punish political violence.”

But we should not be so myopic about the value of freedom of speech. It is not just a practical, peaceful alternative to violence. It does much more than that: It helps us understand many crucial, mundane and sometimes troubling truths. Simply put, it helps us understand what people actually think—not “even if” it is troubling, but especially when it is troubling.

As Edward Luce points out in his excellent new short book The Retreat of Western Liberalism, there are real consequences to ignoring or wishing away the views that are held by real people, even if elites believe that those views are nasty or wrongheaded. Gay marriage champion and author Jonathan Rauch reminds us that in the same way that breaking a thermometer doesn’t change the temperature, censoring ideas doesn’t make them go away—it only makes us ignorant of their existence.
 

bshole

Diamond Member
Mar 12, 2013
8,315
1,215
126
If it were mere speech it would not be an issue. But they held a protest, brought weapons, intimidated people, and eventually one of them jumped in his car and mowed down a bunch of folks and killed one.

THATS A FUCKING CRIME! AND THEY ALWAYS DO IT! They always end up causing real problems! Thats why nazis should not be allowed to organize and protest and mass up. They always make problems. They're a hate group and they promote real world violence.

Who makes the decision what groups can organize and protest? The government? You trust the government (currently run by Donald Trump) to select who can organize and protest? You do realize the implications of ceding this immense power to the government don't you? This is the same government that tortures enemy combatants, confiscates assets without warrants, drones citizens of sovereign countries, etc.... a government owned by corporate interests. How long would it take that government to begin suppressing speech that protested about the relationship between it and corporate interests? What the hell do you think Donald Trump would do with this power if we gave it to him? I am pretty damn sure he wouldn't do a thing about Nazis but I am also relatively confident that there would be more than a few left leaning newspapers out of business within DAYS of us giving him the power.
 
Reactions: Atreus21

JSt0rm

Lifer
Sep 5, 2000
27,399
3,947
126
Assuming you're addressing me:

No shit! It's a crime to run people over?! I had no idea!

You know what it wasn't? Anything to do with the point. Until that guy murdered someone he'd done nothing illegal. Until they use those weapons they've done nothing illegal. Just ask the guys from the Black Panthers who showed up to the voting place in 2008.

How is this relevant? We're talking about freedom of speech, not murder.

atreus ,defender of nazis and patriot of american free speech.
 

Puffnstuff

Lifer
Mar 9, 2005
16,038
4,800
136
You trust the government (currently run by Donald Trump) to select who can organize and protest?
I'm waiting for him to start using eminent domain to seize property for use by his family to further their wealth.
 

brycejones

Lifer
Oct 18, 2005
26,688
24,999
136
So wait a second.

If 20% of college students supported violence to stop another major civil liberty, say, minority voting rights or freedom of the press. You guys would argue this in the same manner? Just kids being kids? Hey, at least it's 80%? We need more context?

Yes context always fucking matters.
 

zinfamous

No Lifer
Jul 12, 2006
110,810
29,564
146
Wow. Did you do 15 seconds of googling and seize upon the first thing that cast the man in a negative light? How old are you anyway?



I think I probably know them better than you evidently. The limits on free speech involve overt threats or incitements to violence - things that directly encourage physical harm. Not shutting down opinions you don't like.



Again, you've forced me to either abandon free speech as a principle or defend American Nazis' right to it. I'm sorry but you've left me no better alternative.



Man. There are people worth arguing with and then there are these sorts. Oh well.

you're ignoring the fact that Nazis promise to assemble and dispense violence: this is what they announced ahead of Charolottseville, and this is why they showed up with weapons and shields.

What is actually violence and the intent to do great harm, you are simply calling "speech" and "peaceable assembly." These are the facts, and you choose to ignore them because it hurts your message. What is the point of making a false message like yours when, on the other hand, you claim to agree with me? The only answer to this is that you choose to support Nazis for other reasons. Again, address the same set of facts (the only facts), and then discussion can be had. That is why I request that you go fuck yourself. You refuse to engage in the actual issues when you refuse to work with the only set of facts on the table. Do that, and then you can be engaged like an adult.

It still seems strange that your hang on to your Chesterton fellow and his opinions of tolerance, when they were formed will before the horrors of the Holocaust were ever known to him. I wonder what he would think then--don't you? Or are you as incurious as we all assume you are?
 

zinfamous

No Lifer
Jul 12, 2006
110,810
29,564
146
Who makes the decision what groups can organize and protest? The government? You trust the government (currently run by Donald Trump) to select who can organize and protest? You do realize the implications of ceding this immense power to the government don't you? This is the same government that tortures enemy combatants, confiscates assets without warrants, drones citizens of sovereign countries, etc.... a government owned by corporate interests. How long would it take that government to begin suppressing speech that protested about the relationship between it and corporate interests? What the hell do you think Donald Trump would do with this power if we gave it to him? I am pretty damn sure he wouldn't do a thing about Nazis but I am also relatively confident that there would be more than a few left leaning newspapers out of business within DAYS of us giving him the power.

A responsible government makes sure that Nazis, who promised to sow violence, are not allowed to assemble in any manner that allows them to continue their mission of violence, murder and hate. Nazis aren't about speech. They are about subjugation and murder. These are the facts.

Clearly, we don't have a responsible government, nor a proper number of adults holding that government to task. Hell, we've got herds of little bitches genuflecting at the feet of the sociopaths in charge.
 

interchange

Diamond Member
Oct 10, 1999
8,022
2,872
136
I'm less interested in the results in this one survey as I am the change in these views over time.

How can I be sure that this isn't kids just being kids like always?

You could have said that 80% of undergrads oppose violent suppression of offensive speech. That really is an overwhelming majority. There probably are very very few other issues that you could get this much consensus on.

I couple these posts for a reason. The validity of the second rests upon the findings of the first. It is possible that such a number is simply the idiocy rate with regards to this issue, consistent throughout time, and thus 80% is to some degree reassuring. It is also possible that the number represents a significant shift, which could be mighty dangerous.

If the survey instead posed specific cases without identifying the first amendment, free speech, law, etc. as the context for evaluating the answers, I suspect the results would be far less favorable to free speech.
 
Reactions: MrPickins

Genx87

Lifer
Apr 8, 2002
41,095
513
126
and yet it is overwhelmingly true, through the preponderance of evidence, that Hitler and Nazi ideas are wholly intolerable. There is no "Oh gee, maybe they have a point" to be had with nazis. There is no "let's just let them have their say, because it might make me think."

None.

How the fuck did none of you dildos learn this the first time? Is it just because you weren't there?

Are you arguing in order to save us from future nazis we must act like nazis today?
 
Reactions: Atreus21

realibrad

Lifer
Oct 18, 2013
12,337
898
126
what? they had lots of bad ideas for many many years, that were tolerated endlessly, until they started with the murdering. Punching them now, before they get to the murdering, is called lessons learned.

So you honestly believe punching would have stopped WWII?
 

Thebobo

Lifer
Jun 19, 2006
18,592
7,673
136
Um, hippies are nonviolent. Can you really consider people who are willing to use violence to stop those from saying things they don't like hippies? I don't know of anyone on the Right that claims these people are hippies. And, for the left to be willing to use fascist tactics to stop speech they don't like, then yeah, I think we should all be worried. Who is going to stop the crazy on the right when the left is copying fascists?

Etymology of hippie; https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Etymology_of_hippie
 

realibrad

Lifer
Oct 18, 2013
12,337
898
126
Show me dead nazis in the us over the last 10 years? Now show me dead liberals over that same time span.

What did you find?

Ah, so its time to take to the streets and murder people. 10 years of the racists killing people, but this year is the year we stop them. Not sure why we did not act before, but this year is the current year.
 

Atreus21

Lifer
Aug 21, 2007
12,007
572
126
you're ignoring the fact that Nazis promise to assemble and dispense violence: this is what they announced ahead of Charolottseville, and this is why they showed up with weapons and shields.

If they claimed they were going not to protest but to riot, then straightforwardly that speech is not protected.

Can you link to that announcement, incidentally? I can't find it.

What is actually violence and the intent to do great harm, you are simply calling "speech" and "peaceable assembly." These are the facts, and you choose to ignore them because it hurts your message. What is the point of making a false message like yours when, on the other hand, you claim to agree with me? The only answer to this is that you choose to support Nazis for other reasons.

I support American Nazis' right to freedom of speech, just as I do the KKK, Westboro Baptist Church, Antifa, and BLM. Provided they speak in the bounds as repeatedly affirmed by the Supreme Court.

Apart from that, I've no idea what you're talking about below.

Again, address the same set of facts (the only facts), and then discussion can be had. That is why I request that you go fuck yourself. You refuse to engage in the actual issues when you refuse to work with the only set of facts on the table. Do that, and then you can be engaged like an adult.

It still seems strange that your hang on to your Chesterton fellow and his opinions of tolerance, when they were formed will before the horrors of the Holocaust were ever known to him. I wonder what he would think then--don't you? Or are you as incurious as we all assume you are?

First, Chesterton didn't say what I paraphrased him as saying. I was extending an actual quote of his (“To love means loving the unlovable. To forgive means pardoning the unpardonable. Faith means believing the unbelievable. Hope means hoping when everything seems hopeless.”) to tolerance.

And I would imagine, unlike progressives, he wouldn't sacrifice founding principles the moment they become uncomfortable. And luckily for all of us, the SCOTUS won't, or at least hasn't, either.
 
Last edited:

JSt0rm

Lifer
Sep 5, 2000
27,399
3,947
126
Ah, so its time to take to the streets and murder people. 10 years of the racists killing people, but this year is the year we stop them. Not sure why we did not act before, but this year is the current year.


The point is the right is way more violent then the left. You knew this though and just wanted to play dumb.
 

realibrad

Lifer
Oct 18, 2013
12,337
898
126
The point is the right is way more violent then the left. You knew this though and just wanted to play dumb.

Here is a curve ball dummy, we agree that the Right is more violent. I know this because of the data. Saying the Right is more violent does not conflict with what I have said. Problem is you are simply too dumb to realize it.

The Left is becoming more like the Right. There is a growing desire to want to use fascist tactics to push anyone that disagrees. Its ruined the political Right in this country, and its going to ruin the Left. What is worse is the Left wont be there to stop fascism because both sides will be fascist. The only different if that were to happen is what they advocate for.

Wanting to murder your opposite for ideas and not actions is literally fascism. You are just too stupid to realize it.
 
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