The question is too broad. If you had a someone constantly shouting obscenities, racial slurs, or similar into a person's face, then yes, I'd say that violence would be justified to stop that speech. Do I think it should be legal to use violence to counter those expressing ideas contrary to a person's own opinions or values? Absolutely not. I think hate speech directed towards a group needs to be protected under the first amendment. On the other hand, I think hate speech directed towards an individual is more ambiguous because at some level you begin to infringe on that individuals rights.
Question for you guys, how many of you have actually had a run in with a group of Neo Nazi's in your life? The guy in the OP is obviously a single little bitch of a man who went out for no other reason than to draw attention to his cause, and he's getting it. What he said to whoever finally clocked him is unknown to everyone here apparently, so we don't have full context of the incident to judge whether he got what was coming or not. That being said I want to share a story from my teen years that I will never forget to this day about what Neo Nazi's are really about.
Back in '06 after high school a group of friends and myself decided to start a small business and run a concert venue that catered more to the under exposed genres of music. We had a lot of what you would call for a lack of better words, gutter punk and hardcore bands play most of the time. For those of you unaware, the punk rock and hardcore communities have a very tumultuous history with skinheads, white supremacists and neo nazis. Because the music has an intrinsic anger to it, hate groups really grab onto this stuff and start to use it as propaganda to recruit more young angry members. Now this is the important bit here, the business was ran by myself (Hispanic), 2 other Hispanic friends, and an African American.
In the summer of '06 we put together a little mini festival of sorts from Thursday to Saturday featuring a lot of politically charged punk and hardcore bands. Due to the type of message they send about unity and inclusion they often get a lot of trouble at their shows in the south, so they brought their own security to work the doors. At the time, unknown to us, a Neo Nazi group had seen our fliers for the event with things like "UNITY FOR ALL" and messages of brotherhood written on them, and decided to host their own event at the bar next door to the venue (this later was revealed to us by detectives who had been tracking their movement as an organization) They sent over a member of their group to try to get admission to the show, he was covered in swastikas and white hate symbols, he even had a German SS tattoo on his neck. The door guy refused entry to the guy, told them that they had no desire to allow a Nazi skinhead into the venue. He threw a shit fit and requested to speak to the management about being denied entry, so we obliged him, trying to be mature business owners despite all of us only being 18-20. My friend's Lorenzo (hispanic) and Sylvester (African American) went out to talk to him, when they came out and he saw they were both POC his response was "Now I understand, this is a place for n****and s**** I know how to solve this" and walked away. Kind of taken back by the whole ordeal they didn't really think too much about it, he was a skinhead afterall, that reaction was mostly expected so on the show went.
That went down around 6:30 PM or so, a couple of hours later we had an equipment failure and I had to run across town to grab some new cables and a mixer board for the second stage. In the 45 minutes that I was gone the little Nazi f*cker went and got the rest of the crew that was at the bar next door, about 25 of them in total, armed with lead pipes and heavy chains. They definitely didn't stop by to say hi, they stormed the door man and beat him within inches of his life. After getting inside the venue they proceeded to beat the ever living shit out of every person in their path until one of the bands managed to get the back garage doors we used for equipment loading open and get as many people out as possible. The people stuck on the other side of the venue didn't fare so well, but no one got it worst than my two friends, who this gang of c*nts decided to make a prime example of. They both took multiple blows to the head from lead pipes while the Nazi's took turns taking free shots as they lay on the floor helpless. After they were done taking turns beating on my friends, they hung up a Nazi flag and spray painted "You will not replace us" across the stage. That slogan sounds awfully familiar doesn't it?
On this day 43 people were injured, 11 were hospitalized. The doorman and my two friends had to be taken to the ICU, and one of them was there for 2 weeks before being declared stable. I learned on this day what these people really are, and it's a lesson I will gladly share with everyone that wants to listen. They have only one intention, and that intention is to use violence to further their agenda of preserving their perceived genetic superiority over minorities. There is only one way in which their agenda is possible, that is through the use of violence. There is no such thing as a peaceful Nazi, just because this one happened to be alone and a pussy doesn't change that fact. If you get enough of them together they do things like this, or what they did in Charlottesville. They don't wear chains and walk around with riot gear and assault rifles for fashion statements, they are ready to use them, that's the only message you send when you show up armed.
I'm a huge advocate of free speech, I prefer reeducation over suppression always, but there is a line I draw on Nazi's. The message they send is inherently violent, and free speech stops being covered when it incites violence. The only reason they aren't more active is because they feel safer in large numbers, if their movement is allowed to grow there will be violence.
Likely he would survive being punched. I think more force would be necessary.Oh really? So if the nazi party was stopped before it would be been able to grow germany still would of done all those things with hitler at the helm? Please expand on this theory.
Question for you guys, how many of you have actually had a run in with a group of Neo Nazi's in your life? The guy in the OP is obviously a single little bitch of a man who went out for no other reason than to draw attention to his cause, and he's getting it. What he said to whoever finally clocked him is unknown to everyone here apparently, so we don't have full context of the incident to judge whether he got what was coming or not. That being said I want to share a story from my teen years that I will never forget to this day about what Neo Nazi's are really about.
Back in '06 after high school a group of friends and myself decided to start a small business and run a concert venue that catered more to the under exposed genres of music. We had a lot of what you would call for a lack of better words, gutter punk and hardcore bands play most of the time. For those of you unaware, the punk rock and hardcore communities have a very tumultuous history with skinheads, white supremacists and neo nazis. Because the music has an intrinsic anger to it, hate groups really grab onto this stuff and start to use it as propaganda to recruit more young angry members. Now this is the important bit here, the business was ran by myself (Hispanic), 2 other Hispanic friends, and an African American.
In the summer of '06 we put together a little mini festival of sorts from Thursday to Saturday featuring a lot of politically charged punk and hardcore bands. Due to the type of message they send about unity and inclusion they often get a lot of trouble at their shows in the south, so they brought their own security to work the doors. At the time, unknown to us, a Neo Nazi group had seen our fliers for the event with things like "UNITY FOR ALL" and messages of brotherhood written on them, and decided to host their own event at the bar next door to the venue (this later was revealed to us by detectives who had been tracking their movement as an organization) They sent over a member of their group to try to get admission to the show, he was covered in swastikas and white hate symbols, he even had a German SS tattoo on his neck. The door guy refused entry to the guy, told them that they had no desire to allow a Nazi skinhead into the venue. He threw a shit fit and requested to speak to the management about being denied entry, so we obliged him, trying to be mature business owners despite all of us only being 18-20. My friend's Lorenzo (hispanic) and Sylvester (African American) went out to talk to him, when they came out and he saw they were both POC his response was "Now I understand, this is a place for n****and s**** I know how to solve this" and walked away. Kind of taken back by the whole ordeal they didn't really think too much about it, he was a skinhead afterall, that reaction was mostly expected so on the show went.
That went down around 6:30 PM or so, a couple of hours later we had an equipment failure and I had to run across town to grab some new cables and a mixer board for the second stage. In the 45 minutes that I was gone the little Nazi f*cker went and got the rest of the crew that was at the bar next door, about 25 of them in total, armed with lead pipes and heavy chains. They definitely didn't stop by to say hi, they stormed the door man and beat him within inches of his life. After getting inside the venue they proceeded to beat the ever living shit out of every person in their path until one of the bands managed to get the back garage doors we used for equipment loading open and get as many people out as possible. The people stuck on the other side of the venue didn't fare so well, but no one got it worst than my two friends, who this gang of c*nts decided to make a prime example of. They both took multiple blows to the head from lead pipes while the Nazi's took turns taking free shots as they lay on the floor helpless. After they were done taking turns beating on my friends, they hung up a Nazi flag and spray painted "You will not replace us" across the stage. That slogan sounds awfully familiar doesn't it?
On this day 43 people were injured, 11 were hospitalized. The doorman and my two friends had to be taken to the ICU, and one of them was there for 2 weeks before being declared stable. I learned on this day what these people really are, and it's a lesson I will gladly share with everyone that wants to listen. They have only one intention, and that intention is to use violence to further their agenda of preserving their perceived genetic superiority over minorities. There is only one way in which their agenda is possible, that is through the use of violence. There is no such thing as a peaceful Nazi, just because this one happened to be alone and a pussy doesn't change that fact. If you get enough of them together they do things like this, or what they did in Charlottesville. They don't wear chains and walk around with riot gear and assault rifles for fashion statements, they are ready to use them, that's the only message you send when you show up armed.
I'm a huge advocate of free speech, I prefer reeducation over suppression always, but there is a line I draw on Nazi's. The message they send is inherently violent, and free speech stops being covered when it incites violence. The only reason they aren't more active is because they feel safer in large numbers, if their movement is allowed to grow there will be violence.
Likely he would survive being punched. I think more force would be necessary.
I think where we are mis-communicating is the righties in this thread seed me talking about nazis--actual, proud, flag-carrying nazis--and think I am referring to all of the alt-right sociopaths, the milos yabadoubaulouses, the OrroROroroROos and TajMajals, the pizzagaters, Ann Coulters and what not.
I am not. I am talking about Nazis, specifically.
As for the other simple-minded idiots, I absolutely find it troubling that universities like UC Berkeley are inviting, then dis-inviting these speakers, allowing their appearances to be shouted down. That naive, inexperienced students believe that shouting away discomfort will make the world a safe space. If anything, they should realize that conservatives have been trying to shout away uncomfortable facts for decades, centuries even (evolution, climate change, individual right to one's body, the preposterous lunacy of supply side economics er, I mean theft of the middle class), and the world has continued to prove again and again that their discomforts are rejected by reality.
I find all of that troubling. I believe the average idiot should have their day, and allow the weight of public rejection on their idiocy to be brought down upon them, as the 1st amendment wholly allows...but they must first have their moment, obviously.
But I am not talking about them.
I am talking about goosestapping, tiki-torch wielding, polo shirt-wearing American Nazis. Butterballs that wouldn't know a recessive gene despite the evidence of such on 70% of their familial tree.
I don't believe in using force until there is no other reasonable option. I do not think we are at that point yet, so I cant back going around taking justice into my own hands. We have a society built around rules and logic and we should continue with that. Nazis have a proven track record of failure. Racism has a proven track record of failure. If people do not understand this, then punching will not solve anything as others will fill the void.
Well a lot of deplorables and alt righters do believe in using violence.
And when those people use it, you can defend your self. What you cant do is go around murdering people who have not used violence.
This is a straw man. Nobody is talking about killing people except you and the deplorable altright neocon teaparty people.
Sorry to you, your friends, and everybody who ever has to face horror like that! I am grateful that it didn't put anybody below ground!
You ever hear of the movie "Green Room" ? http://www.imdb.com/title/tt4062536/
Its not really similar, but, involves a punk band being trapped by a bunch of nazis in a place with all the exits sealed ... very dark and brutal film ...
Agent, is that you speaking through another person...
You just like sliding the goal posts around. Stupid mofo.
Sliding the goal posts eh.
My claim, the left is picking up fascist tactics of the right and will not be able to stop the right if they turn into fascists.
You then say that its not fascists because it does not fill the whole definition of fascism, just part of it.
If you cannot realize that trying to stop speech through violence is fascism then you may not want to look up when its raining, because you just might be dumb enough to drown.
Not sure why people are bringing murder and killing into the conversation. Is punching a Nazi violence? Yes, but there are different types of violence. Not sure how others grew up but if you threw racial slurs at minorities, expect to get your ass beat or at least get into a fight. Just like getting caught sleeping with someone girlfriend or wife, get ready to get a beatdown. This is violence and guess what, it is deserved violence. Now, the type of violence that should be reject is unprovoked violence. Like the stupids retards playing the knock-out game, punching unsuspecting random strangers on the street. Attacking someone who verbally disagreed with you. Etc.
It's stupid lumping all types of violence together.
Question for you guys, how many of you have actually had a run in with a group of Neo Nazi's in your life? The guy in the OP is obviously a single little bitch of a man who went out for no other reason than to draw attention to his cause, and he's getting it. What he said to whoever finally clocked him is unknown to everyone here apparently, so we don't have full context of the incident to judge whether he got what was coming or not. That being said I want to share a story from my teen years that I will never forget to this day about what Neo Nazi's are really about.
@realibrad would you be okay with a local ISIS chapter gathering in public to spread the good word of their movement? They aren't criminals until they actually commit an act of terrorism so it should be okay right? We should protect their freedom of speech and right to assembly despite their beliefs in using violence as a means to get their desired outcome of death to infidels.
Membership in known terror organizations is going to carry some weight among law enforcement groups.
But if you're an American citizen you have a right to free speech until you directly call for violence.
This is standard first amendment stuff.
Think you're in the wrong thread sir.
Membership in known terror organizations is going to carry some weight among law enforcement groups.
But if you're an American citizen you have a right to free speech until you directly call for violence.
This is standard first amendment stuff.
I never said it was just part of it. Every time there is a guy punching another guy because opinion is it fascism? No? But because a fascist get punched the person punching him must be fascist too? Rediculous.
Its fascist if the point is to stop the speech, and not just for the opinion.