1080p on 4K screens

[awnm]

Debating a 1440p vs 4K screen.

If I’m happy with 1080p for the time being, are there arguments against running 1080p on a 4k screen until video cards that can drive 4K become affordable?

The scaling shouldn't be an issue, and you get the advantage of 4K for non gaming uses. Plus for non demanding games 4K should be usable even now.

Given monitors are upgraded far less often than cards, seems like buying something like the well reviewed 4K BenQ 3201 now and playing your games at 1080p for a while is more future proof than buying a 1440p screen only to replace it in a year or two.

 

[Eric1987]

1080p on my 4k monitor looks terrible.

 

[awnm]

What screen are you using?

My understanding is it depends a bit on the scaler in the particular monitor, but that overall it should usually scale well and be sharp. People seem to use 4K screens for 1080p consoles for example.

Here's a comparison of 1080p on the BenQ next to a 37" 1080p Westinghouse for example. Looks pretty good.

 

[happy medium]

depends a bit on the scaler

Yes it depends ALOT on this.

 

[dave1029]

I went home and grabbed my spare 21" LG 1080p monitor that I used for years before switching to a XB280HK... My intent was to fire it up for games that had horrible UI scaling such as Civ Beyond Earth... Long story short, my 28" 4K monitor looked *Better* than 21" native 1080p monitor @ 1080 obviously. It scales fine.

 

[bystander36]

Scaling is going to add another level of comparisons. It is going to soften the image a lot and appear a bit like some form of post process AA. Peoples opinions differ on these types of AA a lot. Some people simply don't like it, while others do, or find it acceptable.

 

[blackangst1]

I have THIS 4k monitor and 1080p looks great on it. For day to day use, and for gaming, I use 2160 resolution though, as with 4k I have to set my DPI way too high to make things readable.

 

[soccerballtux]

Scaling is going to add another level of comparisons. It is going to soften the image a lot and appear a bit like some form of post process AA. Peoples opinions differ on these types of AA a lot. Some people simply don't like it, while others do, or find it acceptable.

it shouldn't. at 4k it should 4 pixels should go for every one 1080p pixel

 

[bystander36]

it shouldn't. at 4k it should 4 pixels should go for every one 1080p pixel

That is the way it could be, but none that we know of does this. It would be great if they offered this solution, but it just isn't offered on anything I've heard of.

 

[awnm]

Anecdotally the BL3201 is meant to do the 4x scaling extremely well, but it's hard to find any precise info. Let alone somewhere to see the thing in action (at least here in Australia) - seems like you have to buy it to try it.

 

[Dice144]

1080p on my 4k monitor looks terrible.

I have to fully agree. Since my water cooling loop is having an issue, I am forced to use my IGP in my 4770k. My Asus 4k monitor at 1080p looks pretty terrible. STILL better than not gaming for 2 more weeks until the new AMD cards are released.

 

[Eric1987]

I have a samsung UD590 btw if anyone was still wondering.

 

[PrincessFrosty]

Yes it depends ALOT on this.

Well not really.

1080p is an exact multiple of 4k UHD, which means you can upscale 1080p to 4k without any image quality change or loss, you simply take each pixel and represent it by 4 pixels (in a 2x2 grid), it's mathematically perfect scaling and it's very cheap to perform.

I have exactly the same thing on my 2560x1600 panel, I can do native res of 1280x800 scaling perfectly with the same technique.

You only get IQ loss when the upscale is done without an exact multiple between the resolutions, then you need to make guesses about intermediate colours between the pixels by taking averages which results in an inaccurate mess.

Obviously what you end up with is more blocky but quite frankly a lot of these 4k panels are only 27-28" and people are already using 27" for 1080p, so it doesn't seem like that much of a problem.

 

[Headfoot]

Well not really.

1080p is an exact multiple of 4k UHD, which means you can upscale 1080p to 4k without any image quality change or loss, you simply take each pixel and represent it by 4 pixels (in a 2x2 grid), it's mathematically perfect scaling and it's very cheap to perform.

I have exactly the same thing on my 2560x1600 panel, I can do native res of 1280x800 scaling perfectly with the same technique.

You only get IQ loss when the upscale is done without an exact multiple between the resolutions, then you need to make guesses about intermediate colours between the pixels by taking averages which results in an inaccurate mess.

Obviously what you end up with is more blocky but quite frankly a lot of these 4k panels are only 27-28" and people are already using 27" for 1080p, so it doesn't seem like that much of a problem.

Except that's not what happens in the real world. They dont scale 4:1 like you'd think should happen. I don't know why or how, but the scalers dont do that

 

[tential]

Well not really.

1080p is an exact multiple of 4k UHD, which means you can upscale 1080p to 4k without any image quality change or loss, you simply take each pixel and represent it by 4 pixels (in a 2x2 grid), it's mathematically perfect scaling and it's very cheap to perform.

I have exactly the same thing on my 2560x1600 panel, I can do native res of 1280x800 scaling perfectly with the same technique.

You only get IQ loss when the upscale is done without an exact multiple between the resolutions, then you need to make guesses about intermediate colours between the pixels by taking averages which results in an inaccurate mess.

Obviously what you end up with is more blocky but quite frankly a lot of these 4k panels are only 27-28" and people are already using 27" for 1080p, so it doesn't seem like that much of a problem.

Not every monitor does this type of scaling. Would be nice if every one offered it but they don't. So great in theory but have to find the same thing in practice too.

 

[poofyhairguy]

With video content (like movies) you can use MadVR combined with GTX 960-level hardware to upscale in a way that looks BETTER than many 1080p sets.

The problem is the scalers on most sets (not just 4k, also 1080p ones) are crap.

 

[PrincessFrosty]

Not every monitor does this type of scaling. Would be nice if every one offered it but they don't. So great in theory but have to find the same thing in practice too.

You don't let the monitor do the scaling, that would just add more input lag anyway, you let the video card do the scaling for you in software which can scale it perfectly. If hardware scalers aren't doing exact up scales when it's mathematically possible then it's a shit scaler and I would avoid it at all costs. I find it really hard to believe that 4k monitors especially aren't doing this for 1080p content because running 1080p content on 4k is going to be extremely common for the next several years at the very least, at this point not having a good 1080p to 4k scaler would be like not having an on button.

 

[bystander36]

You don't let the monitor do the scaling, that would just add more input lag anyway, you let the video card do the scaling for you in software which can scale it perfectly. If hardware scalers aren't doing exact up scales when it's mathematically possible then it's a shit scaler and I would avoid it at all costs. I find it really hard to believe that 4k monitors especially aren't doing this for 1080p content because running 1080p content on 4k is going to be extremely common for the next several years at the very least, at this point not having a good 1080p to 4k scaler would be like not having an on button.

That would be great, if the video cards scalers did that type of scaling, but they do not. Many 4k users are reporting the same.

 

[Stuka87]

In my experience 1080P on a 4K display looks perfectly fine. I am sure there are some scalers that suck and don't map directly 4:1, but at least of some of the laptops that I have used it looks great.

 

[exar333]

1080P doesn't look great on any display > 24'' anyway...

For example, a 27'' 1080P display only has about 60% of the pixel density of a 27'' 1440P equivalent. I can't imagine 1080P on any desktop displays over 30''...

Also sounds like some of the scalers being used from some of the 4K displays in the thread must be pretty poor too. I am sure that's not helping.

It would be nice to have this type of test included in 4K display reviews. A lot of the recent 4K display reviews I have seen (especially on AT) don't really dig too deep into the unit. Its a pretty brief review with a few metrics. This type of information would be nice to have...

 

[bystander36]

In my experience 1080P on a 4K display looks perfectly fine. I am sure there are some scalers that suck and don't map directly 4:1, but at least of some of the laptops that I have used it looks great.

I know when 4k monitors first came out, there were no 4:1 scaling, from the GPU or monitor. Has that changed, or when you say it looks fine, you are just saying it still looks good without 4:1 scaling?

And if it does do 4:1 scaling now, is it on the monitor scaler, or has AMD and Nvidia started doing this? They did not a year ago.

 

[Stuka87]

I know when 4k monitors first came out, there were no 4:1 scaling, from the GPU or monitor. Has that changed, or when you say it looks fine, you are just saying it still looks good without 4:1 scaling?

And if it does do 4:1 scaling now, is it on the monitor scaler, or has AMD and Nvidia started doing this? They did not a year ago.

I mean when I switch the display from 3840x2160 to 1920x1080 everything still looks crisp and sharp. There is none of the typical blurriness that typically comes from running an LCD and non-native resolution.

In this specific case, it was with a Dell Precision M3800.

 

[bystander36]

I mean when I switch the display from 3840x2160 to 1920x1080 everything still looks crisp and sharp. There is none of the typical blurriness that typically comes from running an LCD and non-native resolution.

In this specific case, it was with a Dell Precision M3800.

Can you check to see if you have it set to scale on the GPU or on the Display? I'm not sure how AMD does it, but Nvidia has these settings under the "adjust desktop size and position".

 

[Stuka87]

1080P doesn't look great on any display > 24'' anyway...

For example, a 27'' 1080P display only has about 60% of the pixel density of a 27'' 1440P equivalent. I can't imagine 1080P on any desktop displays over 30''...

Also sounds like some of the scalers being used from some of the 4K displays in the thread must be pretty poor too. I am sure that's not helping.

It would be nice to have this type of test included in 4K display reviews. A lot of the recent 4K display reviews I have seen (especially on AT) don't really dig too deep into the unit. Its a pretty brief review with a few metrics. This type of information would be nice to have...

Wondering if people saying it looks bad at 1080P are saying this for the reason you state. 1080P is marginal on a 24", and pretty bad at 27"+. But thats because of low pixel density, not because of any display scaling.

 

[PrincessFrosty]

That would be great, if the video cards scalers did that type of scaling, but they do not. Many 4k users are reporting the same.

I find that hard to believe, the fact is that 4:1 scaling is cheaper to perform than doing any kind of colour averaging and is perfectly accurate, there's literally no reason not to do it.

I find it more likely people have got shit panels and they're using on board scaler chips which are poorly designed/made and don't have things configured right.