12 killed, 59 hurt in shooting after The Dark Knight Rises premiere in Denver

[Aikouka]

I think it's important to discuss that topic a bit as well. If for no other reason than to prevent further loss of innocent life.

Eh, I've read through a fair bit of it, and the reoccurring problem that I see is how people keep using a lot of "if ___, then ___!" arguments. Now, these aren't by nature bad, but if you start falling into the logical quandary of including a counterfactual conditional, then it's just a waste. There's little sense in making counterfactual arguments, because they're really just guesses.

The easiest example of a counterfactual argument that you'll probably see is: "If Hitler was never born, World War II wouldn't have happened."

The argument being counterfactual doesn't mean that it isn't possible, but it's impossible to prove. So, these silly, "Gun regulations would have stopped this!," arguments are nothing more than counterfactual drivel.

 

[jlee]

I'm not one of those who would pretend to believe that a casual CCW holder in the middle of the theater would have done any good. I agree, that person would probably have been more of a hindrance. What about a properly educated/practiced CCW holder sitting in the front row? Witness descriptions indicate that the shooter stood in the front of the auditorium shooting in the back row for some time while ignoring the front. Was the shooter still in body armor? Sure. Would he have probably turned his attention to a CCW holder reaching for a weapon? Possibly, maybe he would be lost in the chaos as well. Is there a possibility that a properly trained CCW holder in the front row could have prevented additional loss of life? I think the possibility exists. Obviously it's all conjecture; but the insinuations made in this thread that many/most CCW holders are people pretending to play CS/Cowboys in real life is a bit extreme.

I'm also reading that he stood by the exit, shooting people as they left, as well as walked up and down the aisles, shooting away. I read another where someone in the front row ducked as he was shooting people behind her.

Meanwhile, many people here refuse to even consider the possibility that a competent civilian could have a chance - and instead insist that everyone should be victims instead.

 

[0roo0roo]

Dude, there's a difference between ROBBERS AND A FUCKING HOMICIDAL MANIAC. You people lack any sort of logic or sense.

And do i even have to go on about the other various differences between each incidents? Or can you figure that out yourself, mr. internet toughguy cowboy? Stop confusing counterstrike and COD modern warfare with real fucking life.

no ones talking about some guy outside the theater rushing in to fight a gun fight. but for those had no option, pinned into their seats by the crowd trying to run away, having a shot is better than none, its just simple logic.

 

[0roo0roo]

True. But I am not saying we should try to stop all violence because we can't.. as you pointed out.

We should look into games and movies and the impact and encouragement they lend to this sort of violence. No, movies/games don't make people into killers, but the inspiration they give to some is drastically underestimated, IMO.

I remember the North Hollywood shootout and how that was referred to as a "shootout scene from the movie 'Heat'". I am not saying that that's where they got their idea, but a group of heavily armed men taking on a police force with those kinda weapons gives those kinda people ideas.

The boys who killed all those kids in the Columbine massacre were enthralled in games like wolfenstein 3d, Doom, and Quake.

This last jerk in the movie theater mimicked the shootout scene in the Batman movie and one of it's main antagonists.

What irritates me is that people want to screams "rights" all the time -- my right to watch this... to do that, to carry this. I'd like to ask: is everything you are entitled to do, something you should do?

It's your right to let your 4 year old watch Saw II, but would you let him? Doubt it, because no benefit is derived from such a dumb, and senselessly gruesome and gory movie.

ugh no, the only possible link with media is the endless coverage of such incidents, that is the problem, not the games or the rest. its the publicity and notoriety they crave, and that doesn't come from a game, it comes from your attention.

i rewatched the dark knight 2 days ago, the joker does say a thing on this

"Joker: I just did what I do best. I took your little plan and I turned it on itself. Look what I did to this city with a few drums of gas and a couple of bullets. Hmmm? You know... You know what I've noticed? Nobody panics when things go "according to plan." Even if the plan is horrifying! If, tomorrow, I tell the press that, like, a gang banger will get shot, or a truckload of soldiers will be blown up, nobody panics, because it's all "part of the plan." But when I say that one little old mayor will die, well then everyone loses their minds!"

 

[Number1]

One of the victim was a 6 years old girl. How fucking sick.

 

[qliveur]

I'm also reading that he stood by the exit, shooting people as they left, as well as walked up and down the aisles, shooting away. I read another where someone in the front row ducked as he was shooting people behind her.

Meanwhile, many people here refuse to even consider the possibility that a competent civilian could have a chance - and instead insist that everyone should be victims instead.

Agreed.

 

[TheVrolok]

I'm also reading that he stood by the exit, shooting people as they left, as well as walked up and down the aisles, shooting away. I read another where someone in the front row ducked as he was shooting people behind her.

Meanwhile, many people here refuse to even consider the possibility that a competent civilian could have a chance - and instead insist that everyone should be victims instead.

Yep, that's what the witness stated where I read it. Stood in the front, emptied the shotgun, then started walking the isles taking out people as they left for the exit.

Totally in agreement with your second statement. I am in no way advocating civilian Rambos, but to say that a CCW holder would absolutely have been a negative in this situation is silly.

 

[Number1]

I tend to agree with this argument:

An AR-15 rifle and Glock handguns: the legal weapons of James Holmes

"The manufacture and import of AR-15s and similar weapons, such as AK-47s, were banned in the US in 1994. There were also limits on the size of magazines that could be fitted, limiting them to holding no more than 10 bullets.

Those prohibitions fell away 10 years later, and attempts to revive them have failed in the face of objections from the powerful National Rifle Association allowing Holmes not only to purchase the powerful weapon but also to fit it with the magazine drum holding a large number of bullets."

However NOTHING is going to stop a determined mass murderer.

 

[jlee]

I tend to agree with this argument:

An AR-15 rifle and Glock handguns: the legal weapons of James Holmes

"The manufacture and import of AR-15s and similar weapons, such as AK-47s, were banned in the US in 1994. There were also limits on the size of magazines that could be fitted, limiting them to holding no more than 10 bullets.

Those prohibitions fell away 10 years later, and attempts to revive them have failed in the face of objections from the powerful National Rifle Association allowing Holmes not only to purchase the powerful weapon but also to fit it with the magazine drum holding a large number of bullets."

However NOTHING is going to stop a determined mass murderer.

That article is misleading. Pre-ban magazines and rifles were still (legally) available on the market. They didn't disappear. The ban sunsetted and despite the media outcry, crime didn't go up.

 

[Number1]

http://today.msnbc.msn.com/id/26184891/vp/48268706#48268706

 

[disappoint]

I'm not one of those who would pretend to believe that a casual CCW holder in the middle of the theater would have done any good. I agree, that person would probably have been more of a hindrance. What about a properly educated/practiced CCW holder sitting in the front row? Witness descriptions indicate that the shooter stood in the front of the auditorium shooting in the back row for some time while ignoring the front. Was the shooter still in body armor? Sure. Would he have probably turned his attention to a CCW holder reaching for a weapon? Possibly, maybe he would be lost in the chaos as well. Is there a possibility that a properly trained CCW holder in the front row could have prevented additional loss of life? I think the possibility exists. Obviously it's all conjecture; but the insinuations made in this thread that many/most CCW holders are people pretending to play CS/Cowboys in real life is a bit extreme.

You make a good point. In this case it might be possible for a properly trained person to stop the shooter earlier, saving some people's lives.

But, what if another person in the room starts firing at the shooter at the same time? Law abiding citizen #1, after dispatching the gunman hears gunshots firing out from someone else and surmises (incorrectly) that there is more than 1 bad guy and engages in some unfortunate friendly fire. It happens to even our troops overseas and police officers, people who train constantly to discern friend from foe.

I know this is another "what if?" scenario. But as long as we're talking about what could go right if there were more CCW holders in the audience, let's also think about what could go wrong so we can at least prevent someone reading these forums from a false sense of security of carrying a concealed weapon.

So basically my point is firearms carry a risk that I think should be averted by proper training rather than all out banning of guns.

 

[gmaster456]

You make a good point. In this case it might be possible for a properly trained person to stop the shooter earlier, saving some people's lives.

But, what if another person in the room starts firing at the shooter at the same time? Law abiding citizen #1, after dispatching the gunman hears gunshots firing out from someone else and surmises (incorrectly) that there is more than 1 bad guy and engages in some unfortunate friendly fire. It happens to even our troops overseas and police officers, people who train constantly to discern friend from foe.

I know this is another "what if?" scenario. But as long as we're talking about what could go right if there were more CCW holders in the audience, let's also think about what could go wrong so we can at least prevent someone reading these forums from a false sense of security of carrying a concealed weapon.

So basically my point is firearms carry a risk that I think should be averted by proper training rather than all out banning of guns.

But what if all that didn't happen?

The "What if" game could be played all night.

What if, a stray bullet from the suspect ricocheted off a metal railing, shot through the ceiling, went through the cockpit of an airliner, killed the pilot, and the plane crashed into the theater, killing all passengers and everyone inside?

What if, a rabid monkey escaped from the zoo, ran into the theater, jumped onto the suspects shoulders and bit him in the neck?

What if, an 89 year old woman pulled a snub nose .38 out of her bra and shot the suspect between the eyes?

What if, what if, what if.......

I get your point and I agree with it. People who chose to carry a firearm should have proper training, but I think it's best to refrain from "What if's"

 

[Anonemous]

The guy expected CCW users, why else would he wear a vest. So not only does the guy have bigger guns, armor, and tear gas, he also has the element of surprise and expected CCW people to fight back.

 

[SSSnail]

You know what? Just let the bad guys do whatever they want, because, let's face it, we're incapable of doing anything useful, ever. Let them walk around, shoot whomever they wish with no fear of repercussions, because they know law abiding citizens do not have the same firepower, or power that they do. Let the court and justice system deal with them, yeah, that will show them.

This just goes to show that there are heroes, then there are ATOT posters. There are some that would jump on grenades to save their squad mates, then there are you guys.

If I was there, and I had a weapon, you can bet your ass that I'll try my best to neutralize the shooter, or die trying. Call me what you want, but that's just me.

 

[Number1]

You make a good point. In this case it might be possible for a properly trained person to stop the shooter earlier, saving some people's lives.

But, what if another person in the room starts firing at the shooter at the same time? Law abiding citizen #1, after dispatching the gunman hears gunshots firing out from someone else and surmises (incorrectly) that there is more than 1 bad guy and engages in some unfortunate friendly fire. It happens to even our troops overseas and police officers, people who train constantly to discern friend from foe.

I know this is another "what if?" scenario. But as long as we're talking about what could go right if there were more CCW holders in the audience, let's also think about what could go wrong so we can at least prevent someone reading these forums from a false sense of security of carrying a concealed weapon.

So basically my point is firearms carry a risk that I think should be averted by proper training rather than all out banning of guns.

We can speculate until we are all blue in the face but we will never know if a CCW would have been able to make a difference. It will be interesting to find out if the place owners change the policy and allow CCW in the future.

 

[disappoint]

I think you mean the similarly-controversial movie, The Basketball Diaries. Trenchcoat-wearing kids shoot up a school in that movie and it was brought up a lot during the aftermath.

 

[gmaster456]

This just goes to show that there are heroes, then there are ATOT posters. There are some that would jump on grenades to save their squad mates, then there are you guys.

Don't lump all of us in the same group.

 

[SSSnail]

Don't lump all of us in the same group.

Apologies, I was referring to the people that keep saying "it's too difficult, you might die, others might die, blah blah..."

That's a risk that you will have to take, some times, because not everything is perfect.

 

[0roo0roo]

well no because they mostly care about this, the endless coverage from news and everyone talking about them for days if not weeks, not the tv dramas or whatever.

 

[TheSlamma]

if i was there, and i had a weapon, you can bet your ass that i'll try my best to neutralize the shooter, or die trying. Call me what you want, but that's just me.

you weren't

 

[Phokus]

Guys, i swear, i TOTALLY would've taken this fucker out. I have about 2000 hours of counterstrike under my belt!

atot.txt

 

[shortylickens]

you weren't

Hence the "if".

 

[gmaster456]

Guys, i swear, i TOTALLY would've taken this fucker out. I have about 2000 hours of counterstrike under my belt!

atot.txt

Enough with this shit. Stop lumping every CCW holder into the gamer, internet rambo group. You sound even more stupid than they do.

 

[SSSnail]

you weren't

Part of who you are and what you "might" do is mental preparedness, and from the posts here, I can be sure that I will never be able to count of some of you, for anything.

If you don't think you'll do something, you never will. Your mind has already given up on you before you even began. You are who you are, and I totally understand that. See? I accepted you for who you are.

Hey phokus, I can guarantee you that a lot of pro CCW folks are ex law enforcement, military, etc... Not all of us are a reflection of who you are. Relax, we got this. You go on your merry way doing your things, whatever they may be.

 

[AMDZen]

My fond memories of that Theater now gone.

My wife and I spent time there in 2006 and watched movies like X-Men at that theater when I worked in Denver. Stayed at the extended stay nearby until we got an apartment in the city.

Love Denver but boy they sure have their share of these type nut job shootings.

This kid is from California and is not a Coloradan or a Denverite. This nut job came from a California upbringing and had only been here a couple years to attend college here. So fuck that.

Nor did this happen in Denver. Aurora is a completely different place. Just like Compton isn't LA or the Bronx isn't NYC.

Having lived in Denver my whole life, I can assure you that Aurora has a reputation. You learn to avoid certain areas of certain cities, and anyone in Denver has known this mall area (where the theatre is) to be a hotbed for this kind of activity. There was shootings in the mall not two years ago.