12 killed, 59 hurt in shooting after The Dark Knight Rises premiere in Denver

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Feb 10, 2000
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Is that his original booking picture?

A couple of observations:

First, I am glad he hasn't been beaten up (there was some speculation that he was, and this was the reason his booking photo wasn't released sooner). While he deserves a beating and far worse, it's not the police's job to administer street justice, and beating him could create unnecessary problems for the prosecution.

Second, he continues (IMO) to look basically like a normal person (notwithstanding the hair). I've read posts by some people who say they see obvious evidence of mental illness in his eyes, but I do not. To me this looks like a typical booking photo for a DUI or similar minor offense. Certainly he doesn't have the obviously unhinged look of Jared Loughner:

 

TerryMathews

Lifer
Oct 9, 1999
11,473
2
0
Is that his original booking picture?

A couple of observations:

First, I am glad he hasn't been beaten up (there was some speculation that he was, and this was the reason his booking photo wasn't released sooner). While he deserves a beating and far worse, it's not the police's job to administer street justice, and beating him could create unnecessary problems for the prosecution.

Second, he continues (IMO) to look basically like a normal person (notwithstanding the hair). I've read posts by some people who say they see obvious evidence of mental illness in his eyes, but I do not. To me this looks like a typical booking photo for a DUI or similar minor offense. Certainly he doesn't have the obviously unhinged look of Jared Loughner:


When I look at him I see "vapid"
 
Feb 10, 2000
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Because it's the truth? I mean seriously, what is the motive here?

The only thing these people had in common was the movie they were at. For murder, the da will have to explain why he chose to murder these people. He likely can't, as the defendant didn't choose these people.

There no evidence as far as I know for this to be a racist crime.

I think mental defect is probably truly applicable. So far as I know there is no explaining why that theatre or any theatre.

The DA has no obligation to establish motive - that is not an element of the offense. Typically it's important to show motive to show why it's likely that the defendant, as opposed to someone else, committed the murder, but here there seems to be no question that Holmes did it.

I don't think there's much question that this incident is a product of a diseased mind, but I am far less certain he can satisfy the M'Naghten standard for not guilty by reason of insanity - I tend to doubt he can.

If we think about, say, the Columbine shooters, the VA Tech guy, or the Fort Hood shooter, I do not believe any of them would qualify as legally insane, because it appears they all knew they were doing wrong, and knew the nature of their actions. They did something crazy, and maybe they were/are crazy, but not crazy in a way that will prevent them bearing the legal consequences of their actions.
 

MarkXIX

Platinum Member
Jan 3, 2010
2,642
1
71
http://usnews.msnbc.msn.com/_news/2...-survivor-boyfriend-took-a-bullet-for-me?lite

"In the chaos that ensued, Young recalled hearing a woman screaming, "I've been shot,” and a man who stepped on the chair she was hiding under crying out, “Jessie’s been shot.” She heard the constant "boom, boom, boom" of the guns and smelled the gunpowder."

Back to the "A CCW carrier wouldn't be able to think clearly because of the tear gas" - That's funny - the smell of gunpowder made it to this victim; no mention of gagging on tear gas. I still maintain that a CCW in the first few rows would have had a very good chance of ending it much more quickly.

Dr Pizza,

I concur that a CCW owner may have made a difference here. Hell, someone simply tackling the fucking guy would be hailed as a hero right now. The facts are, none of that happened and its specious at best to talk of anything other than the facts.

The bottom line in this thread is that people have a serious, fundamental misunderstanding of the capabilities of weapons, body armor, human behavior, etc. I don't give a fuck if a 9mm CCW would have been stopped by his vest, it would have at minimum drawn his attention away from shooting unarmed people and toward someone willing to fight back.

Then I had people basically laugh off the impact of a concussion or broken ribs, clearly they've never really experienced either. Those take Soldiers out of the fight all the time and they have some of the best body armor, physical training, and mental preparation available. I offer to shoot anyone on this board with whatever weapon they choose while they wear body armor and/or helmet and we will see if they are so confident in the protection that this scumbag had in relation to the impact of a CCW response in this scenario. People think body armor makes one invincible, rather, it is intended almost solely to save someone's life with as little damage to the body as possible.

Per ATOT protocol though, there's a lot of people sounding like they know what the fuck they are talking about, but they've NEVER actually experienced it. So, in summary, there's a lot of dumb fuckers running off at the mouth with zero knowledge, training, or experience in what they're talking about.
 
Feb 10, 2000
30,029
66
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Dr Pizza,

I concur that a CCW owner may have made a difference here. Hell, someone simply tackling the fucking guy would be hailed as a hero right now. The facts are, none of that happened and its specious at best to talk of anything other than the facts.

The bottom line in this thread is that people have a serious, fundamental misunderstanding of the capabilities of weapons, body armor, human behavior, etc. I don't give a fuck if a 9mm CCW would have been stopped by his vest, it would have at minimum drawn his attention away from shooting unarmed people and toward someone willing to fight back.

Then I had people basically laugh off the impact of a concussion or broken ribs, clearly they've never really experienced either. Those take Soldiers out of the fight all the time and they have some of the best body armor, physical training, and mental preparation available. I offer to shoot anyone on this board with whatever weapon they choose while they wear body armor and/or helmet and we will see if they are so confident in the protection that this scumbag had in relation to the impact of a CCW response in this scenario. People think body armor makes one invincible, rather, it is intended almost solely to save someone's life with as little damage to the body as possible.

Per ATOT protocol though, there's a lot of people sounding like they know what the fuck they are talking about, but they've NEVER actually experienced it. So, in summary, there's a lot of dumb fuckers running off at the mouth with zero knowledge, training, or experience in what they're talking about.

All I can gauge this on is the North Hollywood robberies, where the police fired hundreds of and hundreds of rounds at the robbers, and hit each of them many times, without preventing them from continuing to move and shoot. Those were police firing in broad daylight, as opposed to civilians shooting in darkness while inhaling tear gas. I'm not sure it's particularly helpful to speculate about what might have been if the audience had had a few CCW holders in its midst, but I am far from convinced that it would have helped in any meaningful way.

Since you apparently feel nobody should comment on this topic unless they have experienced the same situation, have you ever had to shoot at a spree killer in a dark room full of tear gas? Have you ever been shot with body armor on while yourself firing live rounds at a target, while under the influence of Vicodin? If you've experienced both of these things I would agree you have more relevant experience than most or all of the members of this board, but if not I don't see how you're any more qualified to comment.
 
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OutHouse

Lifer
Jun 5, 2000
36,413
616
126
Dr Pizza,

I concur that a CCW owner may have made a difference here. Hell, someone simply tackling the fucking guy would be hailed as a hero right now. The facts are, none of that happened and its specious at best to talk of anything other than the facts.

The bottom line in this thread is that people have a serious, fundamental misunderstanding of the capabilities of weapons, body armor, human behavior, etc. I don't give a fuck if a 9mm CCW would have been stopped by his vest, it would have at minimum drawn his attention away from shooting unarmed people and toward someone willing to fight back.

Then I had people basically laugh off the impact of a concussion or broken ribs, clearly they've never really experienced either. Those take Soldiers out of the fight all the time and they have some of the best body armor, physical training, and mental preparation available. I offer to shoot anyone on this board with whatever weapon they choose while they wear body armor and/or helmet and we will see if they are so confident in the protection that this scumbag had in relation to the impact of a CCW response in this scenario. People think body armor makes one invincible, rather, it is intended almost solely to save someone's life with as little damage to the body as possible.

Per ATOT protocol though, there's a lot of people sounding like they know what the fuck they are talking about, but they've NEVER actually experienced it. So, in summary, there's a lot of dumb fuckers running off at the mouth with zero knowledge, training, or experience in what they're talking about.

good post. it amazes me that people think that a bullet hitting a bullet proof vest will have no effect on the person wearing it. all i can say to that is put one on and let sammy sosa smack you as hard as he can with it and see if you dont get stunned for a bit.
 

TerryMathews

Lifer
Oct 9, 1999
11,473
2
0
The DA has no obligation to establish motive - that is not an element of the offense. Typically it's important to show motive to show why it's likely that the defendant, as opposed to someone else, committed the murder, but here there seems to be no question that Holmes did it.

I don't think there's much question that this incident is a product of a diseased mind, but I am far less certain he can satisfy the M'Naghten standard for not guilty by reason of insanity - I tend to doubt he can.

If we think about, say, the Columbine shooters, the VA Tech guy, or the Fort Hood shooter, I do not believe any of them would qualify as legally insane, because it appears they all knew they were doing wrong, and knew the nature of their actions. They did something crazy, and maybe they were/are crazy, but not crazy in a way that will prevent them bearing the legal consequences of their actions.

Maybe not, but wouldn't concur that juries like to be told a story? What would the narrative here be?

At least with Ft. Hood, we can say he was making a political statement for Al Qaeda. That luxury doesn't exist here, so far as we know.

It's not a slam dunk, I concur with the da. He's going to have to work at this one.
 

Ns1

No Lifer
Jun 17, 2001
55,414
1,574
126
Maybe not, but wouldn't concur that juries like to be told a story? What would the narrative here be?

who gives a fuck what the motive is, he killed 12 injured a shitload and prepared for this attack for MONTHS

I sure as fuck wouldn't need a story to convict this fool.
 
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weflyhigh

Senior member
Jan 1, 2007
971
1
81
How do you prepare for an attack for months and only kill 12 people? Just saying, if I went insane, wanted to murder a lot of people and had months to prepare, I think I'd able to easily take out a couple hundred..
 

TerryMathews

Lifer
Oct 9, 1999
11,473
2
0
who gives a fuck what the motive is, he killed 12 injured a shitload and prepared for this attack for MONTHS

I sure as fuck wouldn't need a story to convict this fool.

Well then I guess the da is just fucking stupid isn't he?

You asked why he would say that. I answered you. Get over yourself.
 

OutHouse

Lifer
Jun 5, 2000
36,413
616
126
How do you prepare for an attack for months and only kill 12 people? Just saying, if I went insane, wanted to murder a lot of people and had months to prepare, I think I'd able to easily take out a couple hundred..

thank god he did not.
 
Feb 10, 2000
30,029
66
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Maybe not, but wouldn't concur that juries like to be told a story? What would the narrative here be?

At least with Ft. Hood, we can say he was making a political statement for Al Qaeda. That luxury doesn't exist here, so far as we know.

It's not a slam dunk, I concur with the da. He's going to have to work at this one.

I'm not sure I understand what you're asking. There will be overwhelming evidence that Holmes did this, and that it was a very precisely planned and executed mass shooting and booby-trapping of Holmes' apartment (he apparently confessed the latter to the police on the scene). As for why he did it, we have nothing other than the fact that he told the police who responded that he was the "Joker." That's OK, because the prosecution has no burden of proving motive, and the defense will almost certainly have no alternative version of events which would make someone else the responsible party, or which would constitute a lawful excuse for Holmes' actions. This is not unusual in cases like this - it is in fact a typical defining characteristic of spree and serial killings that there is no coherent motive, other than "I was angry." While you're right about the motive for the Fort Hood shootings (and there was apparently a political motive for the Norway ones), the same cannot be said for Columbine, VA Tech, Port Arthur, San Ysidro, Killeen, Austin, or most other similar crimes.

Now, the mental illness component of this is a whole other question, and that will be where the real battle will be fought. At this point it doesn't look to me like Holmes will have a particularly strong mental illness defense, but since he doesn't appear to have any other viable defenses, his lawyers will do their best to assert that one.
 
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Ns1

No Lifer
Jun 17, 2001
55,414
1,574
126
Well then I guess the da is just fucking stupid isn't he?

You asked why he would say that. I answered you. Get over yourself.

I'm not sure I understand what you're asking. There will be overwhelming evidence that Holmes did this, and that it was a very precisely planned and executed mass shooting and booby-trapping of Holmes' apartment (he apparently confessed the latter to the police on the scene). As for why he did it, we have nothing other than the fact that he told the police who responded that he was the "Joker." That's OK, because the prosecution has no burden of proving motive, and the defense will almost certainly have no alternative version of events which would make someone else the responsible party, or which would constitute a lawful excuse for Holmes' actions. This is not unusual in cases like this - it is in fact a typical defining characteristic of spree and serial killings that there is no coherent motive, other than "I was angry."

Luckily DVC said everything for me.
 

JulesMaximus

No Lifer
Jul 3, 2003
74,472
867
126
http://usnews.msnbc.msn.com/_news/2...-survivor-boyfriend-took-a-bullet-for-me?lite

"In the chaos that ensued, Young recalled hearing a woman screaming, "I've been shot,” and a man who stepped on the chair she was hiding under crying out, “Jessie’s been shot.” She heard the constant "boom, boom, boom" of the guns and smelled the gunpowder."

Back to the "A CCW carrier wouldn't be able to think clearly because of the tear gas" - That's funny - the smell of gunpowder made it to this victim; no mention of gagging on tear gas. I still maintain that a CCW in the first few rows would have had a very good chance of ending it much more quickly.

Except he was wearing body armor.
 

Ns1

No Lifer
Jun 17, 2001
55,414
1,574
126
Yeah, he agreed with me. "A battle over mental illness."

I'm too lazy to type so I'll just copy/paste.

That's OK, because the prosecution has no burden of proving motive, and the defense will almost certainly have no alternative version of events which would make someone else the responsible party
 

TerryMathews

Lifer
Oct 9, 1999
11,473
2
0
Why the fuck would a da say something like this?







Now, the mental illness component of this is a whole other question, and that will be where the real battle will be fought. At this point it doesn't look to me like Holmes will have a particularly strong mental illness defense, but since he doesn't appear to have any other viable defenses, his lawyers will do their best to assert that one.

Anything you can do, I can do better.

And you're still an idiot.
 

Ns1

No Lifer
Jun 17, 2001
55,414
1,574
126
Anything you can do, I can do better.

And you're still an idiot.

Instead of resorting to personal attacks I'm just gonna ignore you. I never once stepped on your toes and you started calling me an idiot.

TerryMathews
This message is hidden because TerryMathews is on your ignore list.
 

TerryMathews

Lifer
Oct 9, 1999
11,473
2
0
Instead of resorting to personal attacks I'm just gonna ignore you. I never once stepped on your toes and you started calling me an idiot.

And you're still an idiot, because you simply didn't like the answer you were given.

Why ask a question at all if you already know the answer?
 

MarkXIX

Platinum Member
Jan 3, 2010
2,642
1
71
All I can gauge this on is the North Hollywood robberies, where the police fired hundreds of and hundreds of rounds at the robbers, and hit each of them many times, without preventing them from continuing to move and shoot. Those were police firing in broad daylight, as opposed to civilians shooting in darkness while inhaling tear gas. I'm not sure it's particularly helpful to speculate about what might have been if the audience had had a few CCW holders in its midst, but I am far from convinced that it would have helped in any meaningful way.

Since you apparently feel nobody should comment on this topic unless they have experienced the same situation, have you ever had to shoot at a spree killer in a dark room full of tear gas? Have you ever been shot with body armor on while yourself firing live rounds at a target, while under the influence of Vicodin? If you've experienced both of these things I would agree you have more relevant experience than most or all of the members of this board, but if not I don't see how you're any more qualified to comment.

I'm not saying that NO ONE should talk about this, I am saying that it has overridden other topics here and that the vast majority of the comments are flat out wrong. Instead, this whole thread has digressed into a CCW, 2nd amendment argument when we should be talking about how to react in the future, the victims, etc.

I have NOT been shot with body armor on, I've been lucky in that regard. However, I have served with many Soldiers who have and all indicate that at minimum it hurts. Several others suffered as I stated previously, broken ribs, concussion, etc. There seems to be a theme that this shooter was all but invincible because he was wearing some kind of body armor, the type of which has not even been detailed.

I have engaged targets with a gas mask on, in darkness, etc. As a U.S. Army Military Policeman for over 17 years, it's kind of par for the course. I know how difficult shooting in the dark, through smoke, with a gas mask on, in full body armor, etc. actually is. That's way more than 98% of the comments on here. I've also defended myself after having been sprayed with pepper spray in training scenarios. So, while I've never been shot with body armor on, I have enough training, knowledge, and experience to refute a lot of these claims that a CCW engagement would have been ineffective at best.

Also, if I recall the facts correctly, the North Hollywood shoot out showed that they were wearing NIJ Level IIIa body armor, augmented with steel or ceramic trauma plates. They were also both fairly large physically, described in some accounts as "body builders" which does make a difference. They would have extra muscle/body mass to absorb the impact on the vest and trauma plate and stand up to it better than this guy, who appears to be of slight to moderate build.

Regardless, we will NEVER know if a CCW engagement would have changed the outcome. We will NEVER know if stricter gun control laws would have changed the outcome. What we do know is that getting shot with just about anything while wearing body armor hurts. Pain elicits a response that COULD have changed the outcome here. Maybe that's talking semantics, but far too much of this discussion makes it seem like this guy was some invincible force and that gun control laws are to blame and virtually NO ONE here knows most of the facts involve. I know what I know based on my military training and experience.
 
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Iron Wolf

Member
Jul 27, 2010
185
0
0
Now, the mental illness component of this is a whole other question, and that will be where the real battle will be fought. At this point it doesn't look to me like Holmes will have a particularly strong mental illness defense, but since he doesn't appear to have any other viable defenses, his lawyers will do their best to assert that one.

Why? Wouldn't shooting up a theater filled with people qualify as an insane act?
 
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