12 story apartment building suddenly collapses in Miami

[brycejones]

Yeah I read up on it, who in the fucking hell would agree to have neighbors decide over what you may plant or what how you want to grow things in YOUR OWN BOUGHT PROPERTY?

That is just fucking insane. You're not the owner at that point, it's not YOUR property, it's the property of the HOA. And what is extra fucking American about this is that people pay to have the rights to own their own property taken away from them?

I mean, if you are buying and selling and not living in it that makes sense... Oh ... that's why...

Some people like them because it also means your neighbors can’t turn their yard into a hoarders paradise or paint their house pink with black trim. Some people prefer order and sameness. The other assumption is that by enforcing standards the neighborhood will look better and be more attractive to potential buyers protecting the homeowners investment.

In some areas where the local government is very hands off the HOA can deal with getting a better deal from garbage companies than a single home owner, take care of snow removal, etc.

I don’t want to live in an HOA but they are not all horrible and they do have a purpose.

 

[VRAMdemon]

WaPo has a good article summarizing what evidence we have about the cause of collapse. Didn't see it linked in the thread (I think) so here it is:
Video, images and interviews deepen questions about role of pool deck in condo collapse

Very interesting article. thanks for the link. Just looking at that flat pile of rubble, I figured they may never find out the cause.

 

[brycejones]

Very interesting article. thanks for the link. Just looking at that flat pile of rubble, I figured they may never find out the cause.

Really no worse than figuring out how a plane crashed after its broken into thousands of tiny pieces.

 

[Zorba]

I mean you could Google it and take ten seconds to understand it.

Looks like he did and find all the hate websites and just read "they measure your grass with a ruler" BS.

An HOA is an organization owned, controlled, and funded by the property owners of a building, complex or neighborhood. It's mission is to maintain the common areas and property values. They are also a great way for local government to move enforcement and maintenance burden onto the homeowners, which is why nearly every newer neighborhood has an HOA. Condos must have them, or else no maintenance would ever be done to the complex.

 

[Lost_in_the_HTTP]

YEAH Kitty!!!!

Binx The Cat, A Survivor Of The Florida Condo Collapse, Was Reunited With His Family

Binx was found in the vicinity of the collapsed building and brought to an animal shelter. He was reunited with his family on Friday.

www.npr.org

Probably only got one left though.

 

[Saylick]

Very interesting article. thanks for the link. Just looking at that flat pile of rubble, I figured they may never find out the cause.

I too am afraid we'll never know the exact mechanism which led to the collapse of the tower, but this will be yet another case study not of what happened, but of what didn't happen: people heeding multiple signs of warning and taking early action.

 

[VRAMdemon]

Really no worse than figuring out how a plane crashed after its broken into thousands of tiny pieces.

It's a shame buildings don't have black boxes like planes do. Perhaps they may find camera's that they can still retrieve data from. The article gives some excellent insight. it seems lawsuits were filed against the HOA in 2001 and 2015 for failing to fix the cracks in the outside walls that led to water damage among other things. Hopefully they find some kind of smoking gun evidence.

 

[MtnMan]

Looks like he did and find all the hate websites and just read "they measure your grass with a ruler" BS.

An HOA is an organization owned, controlled, and funded by the property owners of a building, complex or neighborhood. It's mission is to maintain the common areas and property values. They are also a great way for local government to move enforcement and maintenance burden onto the homeowners, which is why nearly every newer neighborhood has an HOA. Condos must have them, or else no maintenance would ever be done to the complex.

Until they don't and the fucking place falls down.

 

[Zorba]

Until they don't and the fucking place falls down.

Again, because the members of the association voted not to. It really isn't that hard. No funding, no fixing.

 

[MtnMan]

Again, because the members of the association voted not to. It really isn't that hard. No funding, no fixing.

But what were they told? Did the voting members receive any factual data from engineers, or was it just "the board" saying, we have a list of things to fix, and it's going to cost you.

 

[Zorba]

But what were they told? Did the voting members receive any factual data from engineers, or was it just "the board" saying, we have a list of things to fix, and it's going to cost you.

I assume they were allowed to read the engineering report.The letter from the president was pretty blunt.

It's pretty obvious you have an irrational hatred of HOAs, of which you have zero experience with. But the HOA can't fix things without money, and it isn't the HOA's fault its members would rather not fix obvious issues with their building.

 

[pmv]

Da fuq is a HOA, is this some sort of American bullshit that I'm far too European to understand like your gun fetish?

Dunno, but this European doesn't find it hard to comprehend how it works (purely from reading this forum). Sounds like a cross between a property management company (or an ALMO for former public housing) and a TRA.

(ALMO being Arms Length Management Organisation, a quango set up by a local council to manage the former-council-housing blocks that it is the freeholder of, and a TRA being a Tenants and Residents Association)

The kinds of restrictions an HOA imposes don't sound a million miles away from those a freeholder might impose on leaseholders and tenants alike in a block of flats.

The differences seems to be that a HOA also has some of the characteristics of a TRA (which here is an entirely separate entity), in that it is controlled by your neighbours, and also that it doesn't only apply to flats/apartments, it apparently can cover houses as well. But I think that can happen here also, where a property developer retains the freehold for all the homes on an estate, levies a 'service charge' and imposes rules for homeowners.

It seems like it doesn't have an exact analogy in Europe, but it's not as wildly different as you seem to be implying. There are all sorts of ways here that you can be limited in what you can do on your 'own property', certainly for flats/apartments (probably a good thing that owners of ground floor properties in blocks of flats are not allowed to remove load-bearing walls)

 

[pmv]

YEAH Kitty!!!!

Binx The Cat, A Survivor Of The Florida Condo Collapse, Was Reunited With His Family

Binx was found in the vicinity of the collapsed building and brought to an animal shelter. He was reunited with his family on Friday.

www.npr.org

Probably only got one left though.

I hope they are absolutely sure it's the same cat! Doesn't sound as if it was micro-chipped or anything, sound as if they just identified it by appearance.

 

[Lost_in_the_HTTP]

^^^ Cats know the Humans they own.



Meanwhile ....

https://www.usnews.com/news/us/articles/2021-07-10/review-prompted-by-building-collapse-closes-miami-courthouse

 

[hal2kilo]

Looks like he did and find all the hate websites and just read "they measure your grass with a ruler" BS.

An HOA is an organization owned, controlled, and funded by the property owners of a building, complex or neighborhood. It's mission is to maintain the common areas and property values. They are also a great way for local government to move enforcement and maintenance burden onto the homeowners, which is why nearly every newer neighborhood has an HOA. Condos must have them, or else no maintenance would ever be done to the complex.

In many instances, it's the vehicle for paying liability insurance for any public areas that are part of the development. Example, water run off settling ponds required by the county.

 

[woolfe9998]

They must be finding bodies in bunches now. Death toll at 86. 43 unaccounted for.

Death toll rises to 86 as recovery teams battle inclement weather at Surfside collapse site

The death toll from the Surfside, Florida, condo tower collapse rose to 86 on Saturday as recovery efforts were briefly halted after a lighting strike, officials said.

www.cnn.com

 

[[DHT]Osiris]

I hope they are absolutely sure it's the same cat! Doesn't sound as if it was micro-chipped or anything, sound as if they just identified it by appearance.

There's absolutely zero chance I'd be confused as to whether my cats are my cats. From the spot on the left eye of my maine my excellent compatriot, to the brown stripes of my black shorthair that only show up in the sun, to the absurdly specific mannerisms they both display. Absolutely zero chance.

 

[pmv]

They must be finding bodies in bunches now. Death toll at 86. 43 unaccounted for.

Death toll rises to 86 as recovery teams battle inclement weather at Surfside collapse site

The death toll from the Surfside, Florida, condo tower collapse rose to 86 on Saturday as recovery efforts were briefly halted after a lighting strike, officials said.

www.cnn.com

What a grim job for those going through the rubble.

Now I think of it, that's the other thing about calling it a 'rescue' effort rather than a body-recovery one - It must feel a much less traumatic task to believe you are engaged in the former.

 

[Saylick]

It's a shame buildings don't have black boxes like planes do. Perhaps they may find camera's that they can still retrieve data from. The article gives some excellent insight. it seems lawsuits were filed against the HOA in 2001 and 2015 for failing to fix the cracks in the outside walls that led to water damage among other things. Hopefully they find some kind of smoking gun evidence.

Unfortunately, I don't think "black boxing" buildings will tell us much because structural failures in buildings are usually preventable if the building is designed properly and proper inspection is done periodically. If a building structure is showing signs of distress or failure, it can usually be observed through visual inspection, e.g. rebar yields and elongates before it ruptures, concrete cracks and spalls during signs of distress, floors start to sag, etc. In other words, buildings typically do not suddenly fail for no reason (key emphasis on the words "suddenly" and "for no reason"). One of the few examples I can think of where you might have a sudden collapse is if a huge load were placed onto a building element which caused it to be immediately overstressed, e.g. placing a heavy piece of equipment onto a floor that was never designed to carry those loads to begin with.

I think in the case here, you won't find a smoking gun. It won't be as simple as "Oh, the structural engineer undersized this one column which lead to the collapse". The truth is that there's a series of events that lead to the failure. The building gave plenty of warnings that something was awry, but people failed to act soon enough.

 

[manly]

HOAs are open organizations accountable to their members. I've never seen one that paid it's board members. All the money goes to services and upkeep. People just don't like that the upkeep is expensive.

I've seen it many times, people come to an HOA meeting bitching about how much they pay and they don't get X, after coming to the meetings for a month or two they usually want to raise dues because they understand commercial poolcare is expensive, landscaping is insanely expensive, etc.

My neighborhood had an ice storm this year, cost 100k to clean up, our whole budget is 136k. Luckily we have reserves, but people still complain we haven't fixed the greenbelt fence yet. We also have to spend 2-5k a year onpool furniture because people year it up.

OK so it has nothing to do with desiring infinite services, glad we can agree. Yes, people are uninformed and act irrationally and good to hear that "Florida Man" inhabits every condo development in the country so I'll avoid buying a condo at all costs.

Was it a leaky roof that caused the problem, or groundwater from pool decks, driveways, etc.? Seems the roof repairs would either be to address interior water damage, or proactive repairs to prevent the same.

IIRC the roof had a design or construction flaw where water would pool up there, so presumably the concrete was in bad shape. Whether that necessitated being fixed first is beyond me. Since the collapse started at ground level, I don't believe anyone has suggested that a compromised roof played a role.

I read on Ars forum that the Champlain Towers North complex was well maintained, and owners allowed someone (media?) to come in and take a look around the garage. No spalling or anything of that nature; basically two buildings that are (more or less) twins but one was properly maintained by its owners and tragically the South complex was not.

 

[Zorba]

OK so it has nothing to do with desiring infinite services, glad we can agree. Yes, people are uninformed and act irrationally and good to hear that "Florida Man" inhabits every condo development in the country so I'll avoid buying a condo at all costs.

Not sure what your point is? I said people want their HOAs to take care of everything, while complaining about the dues and voting against increases. You've said nothing to dispute that.

This thread is a perfect example, many people think the association should've pulled money out of thin air to repair the complex when the owners refused to pay for it.

 

[Jhhnn]

OK so it has nothing to do with desiring infinite services, glad we can agree. Yes, people are uninformed and act irrationally and good to hear that "Florida Man" inhabits every condo development in the country so I'll avoid buying a condo at all costs.


IIRC the roof had a design or construction flaw where water would pool up there, so presumably the concrete was in bad shape. Whether that necessitated being fixed first is beyond me. Since the collapse started at ground level, I don't believe anyone has suggested that a compromised roof played a role.

I read on Ars forum that the Champlain Towers North complex was well maintained, and owners allowed someone (media?) to come in and take a look around the garage. No spalling or anything of that nature; basically two buildings that are (more or less) twins but one was properly maintained by its owners and tragically the South complex was not.

Meh. Proper design dictates that elevated outdoor concrete slabs must slope away from the building or towards specially constructed drains. The south structure did not incorporate those features. Maybe the north tower does. That would make it enormously easier to maintain.

 

[manly]

Meh. Proper design dictates that elevated outdoor concrete slabs must slope away from the building or towards specially constructed drains. The south structure did not incorporate those features. Maybe the north tower does. That would make it enormously easier to maintain.

Both structures are effectively twins, built by the same contractors off the same designs, around the same time. They are 100M apart, so the impact of the seawater could be different. Anyway, the North complex is still being thoroughly examined, so I don't want to declare that it's safe. It was just something I'd read, which if true, confirms a lot of the suspicions in this thread about what led to the South buildings collapse.

 

[Lost_in_the_HTTP]

Well, ain't this a tasty morsel?

Pool Deck Repairs From 1996 Scrutinized in Surfside Building Collapse

Newly uncovered documents suggest that the recently collapsed condo in Surfside, Florida, has faced structural concerns for over two decades.

www.newsweek.com

 

[manly]

https://twitter.com/x/status/1415051773149159429

10 bodies have yet to be identified, and only 4 people are potentially missing.