12 story apartment building suddenly collapses in Miami

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BlueWeasel

Lifer
Jun 2, 2000
15,943
475
126
Tall skyscrapers can't be built from reinforced concrete, that's just not possible. Structural steel allows for taller, lighter structures.

The building in Miami was constructed using reinforced concrete, which is ideal for lowrise condos in hurricane regions. Similar layout as to the WTC - there are still columns, beams, and slabs, but comprised of rebar and concrete. The collapse was similar but it was due to compromised structural elements at the base. Once the lower columns and beams failed, the building fell from the bottom up, which is why it looks like a stack of pancakes. Each "pancake" represent individual floors of the building.
 
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MrSquished

Lifer
Jan 14, 2013
22,939
21,049
136
Sounds like the Fed is going to be paying for everything related to this disaster. So much for red states showing their independence and putting their money where their mouth is. Like almost all GQP positions, they are just hypocrites.
 

Zorba

Lifer
Oct 22, 1999
15,182
10,739
136
Sounds like the Fed is going to be paying for everything related to this disaster. So much for red states showing their independence and putting their money where their mouth is. Like almost all GQP positions, they are just hypocrites.
Why TF is there fed paying for this?
 
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Zorba

Lifer
Oct 22, 1999
15,182
10,739
136
Tall skyscrapers can't be built from reinforced concrete, that's just not possible. Structural steel allows for taller, lighter structures.

The building in Miami was constructed using reinforced concrete, which is ideal for lowrise condos in hurricane regions. Similar layout as to the WTC - there are still columns, beams, and slabs, but comprised of rebar and concrete. The collapse was similar but it was due to compromised structural elements at the base. Once the lower columns and beams failed, the building fell from the bottom up, which is why it looks like a stack of pancakes. Each "pancake" represent individual floors of the building.
The City Plex towers in Tulsa are made of reenforced concrete, the tallest being 60 stories. But this is very rare for tall skyscrapers.

The WTC wasn't a typical column arrangement either. It had a core and the skeleton that carried the vertical load to allow for more open floors. So the huge 767 sized hole in the side had a pretty big impact on the structural integrity.
 

pmv

Lifer
May 30, 2008
13,572
8,470
136
The structure of the WTC is extremely common all over the world. None of the concrete is "hanging" and the concrete in the WTC is generally found only as floor infill and around the stair/elevator shafts. The primary structure consists of large steel columns that support large beams that span between them. These beams carry smaller beams (called steel joists) that are closely spaced (probably around 24-30 inches on center). A steel deck is placed over all the joists (basically the entire floor) and concrete "fill" material is poured on top of the deck. This results in a relatively light floor system that is structurally sound with little vibration and a great acoustic barrier.

No fireproofing works when it is subjected to a fire boosted by high octane jet fuel. With no fireproofing in place, the steel is weakened by the temperatures plus physical damage caused by the impact. As the steel loses capacity, it sags before collapsing. This collapse overloads the floor below, resulting in a progressive failure from the top down.


Well I use the word 'hanging' loosely, the point being that it's the steel frame that primarily holds the thing up, and in effect the concrete hangs on the frame, in contrast to the "large panel system", where the concrete of each level is supported by that of the levels below. Not sure what other word you would use to describe that difference in design?

The second method seems to be much more common in Europe, compared to the steel-frame approach being the dominant approach in the US, as I understand it - I wasn't suggesting the US was some sort of freaky outlier in doing it that way, but it's not how most of the post-war residential large blocks here were constructed. Just struck me as interesting that the two approaches both have a potential mode of failure, but it's different for each.

Really came to mind when the Grenfell fire happened and I saw a few conspiracy-theorists using the fact that that tower didn't fall down to argue there was something suspicious about the WTC case. When in fact the two buildings were constructed entirely differently. Also it explained to me why none of the blocks I looked at when home-hunting had gas supplies. With that sort of construction method a gas explosion could be catastrophic (in a way that presumably would not be the case for a steel-framed building?)

In addition I dimly remember some documentary about the WTC which implied there was some evidence that the fireproofing for the girders in the WTC was somehow skimped on during construction or missing in places and that this might have contributed to the disaster. Of course, a plane crashing into it, is a pretty extreme event, so it would be surprising if it hadn't caused bad effects like that.

In any case it's not clear to me what specific type of construction the block in the current disaster used.
 
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hal2kilo

Lifer
Feb 24, 2009
24,137
10,825
136
Tall skyscrapers can't be built from reinforced concrete, that's just not possible. Structural steel allows for taller, lighter structures.

The building in Miami was constructed using reinforced concrete, which is ideal for lowrise condos in hurricane regions. Similar layout as to the WTC - there are still columns, beams, and slabs, but comprised of rebar and concrete. The collapse was similar but it was due to compromised structural elements at the base. Once the lower columns and beams failed, the building fell from the bottom up, which is why it looks like a stack of pancakes. Each "pancake" represent individual floors of the building.
I think you may be wrong about tall skyscrapers.

Top 10 world's tallest concrete buildings - - Construction Week Online
 
Nov 17, 2019
12,061
7,263
136
Two more recovered:


Total missing reduced after audit:




And a Hurricane approaching:

 

Hans Gruber

Platinum Member
Dec 23, 2006
2,295
1,212
136
Can someone explain why the entire building didn't come down in the initial collapse? More than half the building came down but less than half which was torn away remains standing a week later. It makes no sense.
 

WelshBloke

Lifer
Jan 12, 2005
31,362
9,229
136
Can someone explain why the entire building didn't come down in the initial collapse? More than half the building came down but less than half which was torn away remains standing a week later. It makes no sense.
Why would you expect it all to come down?
 

Hans Gruber

Platinum Member
Dec 23, 2006
2,295
1,212
136
Why would you expect it all to come down?
Because it's one building. If you watch the surveillance video. The eastern most section was standing after the center structure pancaked on itself. The east structure pancaked (5-10 seconds) after the center of the building collapsed. Why didn't the western part collapse? If the construction was flawed, the entire building would collapse on itself. When one domino falls, they all fall. But this didn't happen in this case.
 

Hans Gruber

Platinum Member
Dec 23, 2006
2,295
1,212
136

WelshBloke

Lifer
Jan 12, 2005
31,362
9,229
136
Because it's one building. If you watch the surveillance video. The eastern most section was standing after the center structure pancaked on itself. The east structure pancaked (5-10 seconds) after the center of the building collapsed. Why didn't the western part collapse? If the construction was flawed, the entire building would collapse on itself. When one domino falls, they all fall. But this didn't happen in this case.
Its not made out of dominos.

If the underpinnings in one part give way and that causes that bit to collapse why would that make the rest of the building collapse?
 
Nov 17, 2019
12,061
7,263
136
Less than half came down.

Looks like only the seaside wall of that wing. The main core (probably with the elevators and power and water systems) looks to be relatively unaffected as well as the entire street-side wing.

That's how I see the pictures.
 

brycejones

Lifer
Oct 18, 2005
27,493
26,514
136
Because it's one building. If you watch the surveillance video. The eastern most section was standing after the center structure pancaked on itself. The east structure pancaked (5-10 seconds) after the center of the building collapsed. Why didn't the western part collapse? If the construction was flawed, the entire building would collapse on itself. When one domino falls, they all fall. But this didn't happen in this case.
Your architecture degree is from where?
 

Fenixgoon

Lifer
Jun 30, 2003
32,048
10,822
136
Your architecture degree is from where?
Architecture is primarily the design, AFAIK. Actual structural design is left to civil and structural engineers. At least when it comes to public works, you have to have your P.E/S.E. license to work on that sort of stuff
 

MtnMan

Diamond Member
Jul 27, 2004
8,927
8,132
136
Because it's one building. If you watch the surveillance video. The eastern most section was standing after the center structure pancaked on itself. The east structure pancaked (5-10 seconds) after the center of the building collapsed. Why didn't the western part collapse? If the construction was flawed, the entire building would collapse on itself. When one domino falls, they all fall. But this didn't happen in this case.
All the dominos fall because they were deliberately positioned, so that all would fall. The only ones we see on YouTube are the success. How many weren't uploaded because they didn't all fall?
 

Jaskalas

Lifer
Jun 23, 2004
33,895
7,917
136
Can someone explain why the entire building didn't come down in the initial collapse? More than half the building came down but less than half which was torn away remains standing a week later. It makes no sense.

Separate support columns that survived the shock of detachment. It is not built as a jenga puzzle. Meaning it was actually fairly well built. It's just most of it could not survive 40 years of water eating away the support columns.
 
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