12 story apartment building suddenly collapses in Miami

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K1052

Elite Member
Aug 21, 2003
47,918
36,997
136
Also, again, I think it might be different in the US, but if you have a mortgage here and the value of the property falls to less than that of the mortgage, you can't just walk away and leave the bank with the loss (which I gather is what triggered the financial crisis when that happened on a large scale), you remain in debt to the bank for the full amount.

The US has a mix of recourse and non-recourse states which mean's the lender's ability to go after you can vary. Even in a recourse state the options are realistically limited since if a person is that badly off they might just declare personal bankruptcy anyway. So, throwing the keys at the lender can be a viable option.

What triggered the financial crisis was banks writing loans to huge numbers of people they should not have and the ecosystem above that which securitized them with bullshit ratings for enormous profit.
 

Paratus

Lifer
Jun 4, 2004
17,092
14,398
146
It's not so trivial to 'get a mortgage'. Tell me who is going to give someone a mortgage on a property that might be unsellable and which is in danger of falling down?

I really don't know about how it all works in the US, but I don't know if you have been following the 'post-Grenfell' cladding scandal over here?

Lots and lots of apartment blocks were covered in cladding (in order to improve the appearance) which now turns out to be a potentially-lethal fire-hazard. The inquiry about Grenfell _still_ hasn't reported back, but it's widely suspected that the cladding on the Grenfell building was a major contributor to the lethal fire (because it was highly flammable). Large numbers of other high-rise building have the same cladding, and the cost of removing or replacing it is in many cases more than the value of the apartments in the building.

Generally the decision to put the cladding on was taken by the freeholder (often the local authority, sometimes a private company - I suppose that's roughly equivalent to the HOA, though it's usually not owned by the 'owners' of the properties, who only 'own' a lease, not the 'freehold') and because the government hadn't thought through the potential risks and made regulations accordingly, nobody seems to be able to agree whose fault it was that the buildings are covered in extremely flammable material, making them a potential deathtrap, or whether the cladding met the regulations in place at the time.

People in those buildings (the 'owners', i.e leaseholders, not tenants) are stuck with flats that are unsaleable, and in the meantime have to pay massive bills for extra fire precautions, like full-time fire-wardens. While living in a dangerous building. The bills they are facing to fix the cladding problem are in many cases higher than the value of the flats.

It seems possible from what I can see that the problem with buildings like that Surfside condo may be similar. People may have 'signed onto that' when they bought the property, but they probably had no idea what problems there were with the block itself. Getting a survey on a property before you buy it seems much easier if it's a stand-alone single-household house, than an appartment/flat in a large block. Especially if the authorities haven't been doing their job and ensuring the blocks themselves are safe.

I've been watching the 'cladding' scandal with a mixture of horror and relief, as I very narrowly avoided that trap myself (through sheer luck, as it happens). It feels like it's one of the few potential unforeseen disasters of life that hasn't happened to me!

I don't know if the system works the same in the US, but here there are three classes of home occupier - tenants, who own nothing and pay rent, leaseholders, who 'own' the property, because they paid a huge lump sum to do so, and 'freeholders' who have a kind of higher-order ownership and are responsible for maintaining the entire building. They then charge the leaseholders for the cost of maintanance and repairs.

In some cases the leaseholder and freeholder are the same, but for most properties (certainly for apartments) you can't actually buy the 'freehold', when estate agents buy-and-sell houses or flats they are only trading the 'leasehold'.

Flat/apartment owners with leaseholds where the building itself turns out to be unsafe, are in a disastrous situation.

Also, again, I think it might be different in the US, but if you have a mortgage here and the value of the property falls to less than that of the mortgage, you can't just walk away and leave the bank with the loss (which I gather is what triggered the financial crisis when that happened on a large scale), you remain in debt to the bank for the full amount.
I was wondering what happened after that fire. We were on vacation in London when that fire broke out and even saw the smoke. It was an awful tragedy.
 

Zorba

Lifer
Oct 22, 1999
15,207
10,781
136
It's not so trivial to 'get a mortgage'. Tell me who is going to give someone a mortgage on a property that might be unsellable and which is in danger of falling down?

I really don't know about how it all works in the US, but I don't know if you have
been following the 'post-Grenfell' cladding scandal over here?

I agree it sucks, but who else is supposed to pay for upkeep of the property if not the owners? This isn't a scandal with this condo, either. It was a bunch of condo owners not wanting to pay for proper maintenance for decades and at some point the music stops and someone is caught holding the bag. This is why it is important to do inspections and review HOA materials before closing, but almost nobody does that.

The cladding is a little different since a defective product was sold, but ultimately the property owners are going to get stuck holding the bag. That is one of the massive downsides and risks of being a property owner.
 

pmv

Lifer
May 30, 2008
13,591
8,489
136
I agree it sucks, but who else is supposed to pay for upkeep of the property if not the owners? This isn't a scandal with this condo, either. It was a bunch of condo owners not wanting to pay for proper maintenance for decades and at some point the music stops and someone is caught holding the bag. This is why it is important to do inspections and review HOA materials before closing, but almost nobody does that.

The cladding is a little different since a defective product was sold, but ultimately the property owners are going to get stuck holding the bag. That is one of the massive downsides and risks of being a property owner.

Well, to be honest I can't argue very effectively about the Florida case because I am not familiar at all with how the system works over there.

Over here you can't really just say "that's just something you have to accept as a property owner" because there isn't much option but to be a "property owner" if you want somewhere to live. The alternative is homelessness, or at best the unending threat of it, constantly moving between insecure rentals without any sort of tenure. Since they sold off most of the council housing the state has pretty much decreed that everyone has to 'own' their home. That's been government policy since Thatcher.

I feel entirely sympathetic to those caught in the cladding fiasco, they are for the most part just modestly-paid working people who needed somewhere to live. There's also, over here, the complication that "property owner" means "leaseholder" when it was the "freeholder" who, in most cases, chose to put the cladding on (and the government who failed to regulate that properly, and the cladding companies who, allegedly in some reports, fiddled the safety testing).

Presumably in the US you don't have the freeholder/leaseholder distinction, and all the complications that go with that?

But I still don't think you can talk as if being a property owner is a purely free choice, when renting is so insecure and effectively means paying someone else's mortgage for them.
 

woolfe9998

Lifer
Apr 8, 2013
16,189
14,114
136
I agree it sucks, but who else is supposed to pay for upkeep of the property if not the owners? This isn't a scandal with this condo, either. It was a bunch of condo owners not wanting to pay for proper maintenance for decades and at some point the music stops and someone is caught holding the bag. This is why it is important to do inspections and review HOA materials before closing, but almost nobody does that.

The cladding is a little different since a defective product was sold, but ultimately the property owners are going to get stuck holding the bag. That is one of the massive downsides and risks of being a property owner.

Were the property owners ever actually told that the building was at risk of collapse? They couldn't possibly have believed that to be the case or I highly doubt they would have passed on paying assessments for maintenance.
 
Nov 17, 2019
12,106
7,287
136
Seems to me this is on the architect and original construction contractor as a faulty design and/or poor planning. The tenants in this building did nothing wrong and should not have even been presented with those assessments. I can maybe see assessements for expected wear items like the roof, but not for the main structural support system.

GM right now is recalling a bunch of trucks for fire hazards. The company is paying, not the owners, leaseholders or insurance companies.
 

H T C

Senior member
Nov 7, 2018
585
424
136
This engineer explains it very differently from what the news is saying.

Those column's thickness ...

It reminds me of that South Korean shopping mall that came down years ago: i saw a documentary of it and they claim the main issue was with the columns being thinner than they were supposed to PLUS the added weight to the roof of 3 gigantic air-conditioning machines (18 tonnes each, IIRC) which, combined, ended up bringing the building down.

Here, there doesn't seem to have been added weight in the roof sections but there were other problems, as pointed out in the video, which ended up with the same general result: the building collapsed.
 

PingSpike

Lifer
Feb 25, 2004
21,742
569
126
Those column's thickness ...

It reminds me of that South Korean shopping mall that came down years ago: i saw a documentary of it and they claim the main issue was with the columns being thinner than they were supposed to PLUS the added weight to the roof of 3 gigantic air-conditioning machines (18 tonnes each, IIRC) which, combined, ended up bringing the building down.

Here, there doesn't seem to have been added weight in the roof sections but there were other problems, as pointed out in the video, which ended up with the same general result: the building collapsed.

Weren't they working on the roof? (seems like they should have started on the other end) I wonder if that might be the straw that broke the camels back.
 

Greenman

Lifer
Oct 15, 1999
20,901
5,529
136
Seems to me this is on the architect and original construction contractor as a faulty design and/or poor planning. The tenants in this building did nothing wrong and should not have even been presented with those assessments. I can maybe see assessements for expected wear items like the roof, but not for the main structural support system.

GM right now is recalling a bunch of trucks for fire hazards. The company is paying, not the owners, leaseholders or insurance companies.
How long is a structure supposed to stand without any maintenance? Clearly it had some integrity because it survived for 40 years and through several hurricanes. Are the designers and builders on the hook for eternity?
 

fskimospy

Elite Member
Mar 10, 2006
85,535
50,717
136
How long is a structure supposed to stand without any maintenance? Clearly it had some integrity because it survived for 40 years and through several hurricanes. Are the designers and builders on the hook for eternity?
I think it would really depend on the reason for the collapse. If you can show the designer didn’t follow clearly established safety/integrity rules or that the builder didn’t follow the designed plan in some major way then they should be liable forever, yes.

That being said, I agree with you that the fact that the building has stood for decades and through major weather events indicates stands as evidence against this. The burden of proof would be on the residents to show otherwise.
 

Zorba

Lifer
Oct 22, 1999
15,207
10,781
136
Were the property owners ever actually told that the building was at risk of collapse? They couldn't possibly have believed that to be the case or I highly doubt they would have passed on paying assessments for maintenance.
I'm sure they were all allowed to attend the board meeting and hear what was said. I'm sure when the board first tried to get the maintenance approved they made the inspection available. Regardless, who do you think should be paying for the maintenance if not the home owners?

Is it no longer their duty pay for the maintenance if they were only told "the roof is leaking, nearly every window is leaking, the concrete decks are crumpling and there is significant damage to the structural columns in the basement." As opposed to "pay this or the building will collapse."

I haven't read that engineers report, did he actually say collapse was imminent?

Regardless the owners are the association and it's the associations duty to maintain the property. There is no other source of funding for the association to go to to repair the property other than the property owners.

Nearly universally people in the US bitch about their association fees and want them as low as possible, while having infinite services. So what happens? The obvious stuff get taken care of and all expensive maintenance is deferred, but that is exactly what the property owners vote for and in this case it cost them their property.
 

Zorba

Lifer
Oct 22, 1999
15,207
10,781
136
Well, to be honest I can't argue very effectively about the Florida case because I am not familiar at all with how the system works over there.

Over here you can't really just say "that's just something you have to accept as a property owner" because there isn't much option but to be a "property owner" if you want somewhere to live. The alternative is homelessness, or at best the unending threat of it, constantly moving between insecure rentals without any sort of tenure. Since they sold off most of the council housing the state has pretty much decreed that everyone has to 'own' their home. That's been government policy since Thatcher.

I feel entirely sympathetic to those caught in the cladding fiasco, they are for the most part just modestly-paid working people who needed somewhere to live. There's also, over here, the complication that "property owner" means "leaseholder" when it was the "freeholder" who, in most cases, chose to put the cladding on (and the government who failed to regulate that properly, and the cladding companies who, allegedly in some reports, fiddled the safety testing).

Presumably in the US you don't have the freeholder/leaseholder distinction, and all the complications that go with that?

But I still don't think you can talk as if being a property owner is a purely free choice, when renting is so insecure and effectively means paying someone else's mortgage for them.
I don't know how the UK system works, but in the US there is not a building owner for condos. If a condo complex has 100 units, each unit has its own deed and each unit is a "member/owner" of the association that takes care of the common areas and structure.
 

Zorba

Lifer
Oct 22, 1999
15,207
10,781
136
Seems to me this is on the architect and original construction contractor as a faulty design and/or poor planning. The tenants in this building did nothing wrong and should not have even been presented with those assessments. I can maybe see assessements for expected wear items like the roof, but not for the main structural support system.

GM right now is recalling a bunch of trucks for fire hazards. The company is paying, not the owners, leaseholders or insurance companies.
Buildings need maintenance. Concrete cracks and sprawls and must be fixed. If it's ignored it gets much worse.

The investigation will find if something was designed or built incorrectly, but unless they find something major, it won't and shouldn't fall back on the designer or builder.
 

K1052

Elite Member
Aug 21, 2003
47,918
36,997
136
I think it would really depend on the reason for the collapse. If you can show the designer didn’t follow clearly established safety/integrity rules or that the builder didn’t follow the designed plan in some major way then they should be liable forever, yes.

That being said, I agree with you that the fact that the building has stood for decades and through major weather events indicates stands as evidence against this. The burden of proof would be on the residents to show otherwise.

Sure but in practice the engineering and/or construction firm might not even exist 40 years later and the responsible principals could all be dead.
 
Nov 17, 2019
12,106
7,287
136
FL and other coastal areas had Hurricanes long before the 80s when this one was built .... on a sandbar. There are other similar buildings on the same sandbar, one of which is a sister to this one. Not sure how many of them were built earlier.

Designers need to plan for the worst when building in places commonly subject to the worst.

Miami is 12th on this list of most commonly affected regions:


We don't hear of buildings falling down in other cities on that list.
 

pmv

Lifer
May 30, 2008
13,591
8,489
136
I don't know how the UK system works, but in the US there is not a building owner for condos. If a condo complex has 100 units, each unit has its own deed and each unit is a "member/owner" of the association that takes care of the common areas and structure.

That does sound different. My understanding is there are some blocks here that work like that, where the owners of individual flats have a share in a company that owns the block, but in most cases that I've seen the owner of the block is entirely separate from the 'owners' of the flats (for Grenfell the block owner was the local authority, though it had hived it off into some quasi-governmental organization).

Hence the tremendous confusion and buck-passing that's arisen in the cladding argument.

Not helped by things like this



Even in the US set-up, though, it seems like quite a high burden for a purchaser of an apartment to need to check out the condition and maintenance history of the entire building - am surprised anyone buys such homes in that situation - would seem a lot safer and easier to only consider buying actual houses.
 

Greenman

Lifer
Oct 15, 1999
20,901
5,529
136
I think it would really depend on the reason for the collapse. If you can show the designer didn’t follow clearly established safety/integrity rules or that the builder didn’t follow the designed plan in some major way then they should be liable forever, yes.

That being said, I agree with you that the fact that the building has stood for decades and through major weather events indicates stands as evidence against this. The burden of proof would be on the residents to show otherwise.
The term used in the industry is "latent defects". Generally it's a ten year limitation, but the courts have ruled against builders many years beyond that time.
In this particular case it looks like there might have been a questionable detail in the pool deck construction causing it to hold water. That could be a serious flaw, but it should have been noticed decades ago.
It seems to me that the HOA has some culpability here as well. It's a good thing that they had the building inspected in 2018, it's a very bad thing that it took three years to address major structural issues.
 
Reactions: Zorba

fskimospy

Elite Member
Mar 10, 2006
85,535
50,717
136
The term used in the industry is "latent defects". Generally it's a ten year limitation, but the courts have ruled against builders many years beyond that time.
In this particular case it looks like there might have been a questionable detail in the pool deck construction causing it to hold water. That could be a serious flaw, but it should have been noticed decades ago.
It seems to me that the HOA has some culpability here as well. It's a good thing that they had the building inspected in 2018, it's a very bad thing that it took three years to address major structural issues.
I agree. From what I’ve read it seems like they were notified they had serious issues and didn’t take action.
 

fskimospy

Elite Member
Mar 10, 2006
85,535
50,717
136
That does sound different. My understanding is there are some blocks here that work like that, where the owners of individual flats have a share in a company that owns the block, but in most cases that I've seen the owner of the block is entirely separate from the 'owners' of the flats (for Grenfell the block owner was the local authority, though it had hived it off into some quasi-governmental organization).

Hence the tremendous confusion and buck-passing that's arisen in the cladding argument.

Not helped by things like this



Even in the US set-up, though, it seems like quite a high burden for a purchaser of an apartment to need to check out the condition and maintenance history of the entire building - am surprised anyone buys such homes in that situation - would seem a lot safer and easier to only consider buying actual houses.
Yes, I think it’s rare in the US for the common areas to be owned by someone other than the condo owners. (If it happens at all?)

In the US the primary distinction is between condos and co-ops, the first being where you own your own unit as property and the second being where you own shares in a corporation that give you the exclusive right to rent a unit.
 

fskimospy

Elite Member
Mar 10, 2006
85,535
50,717
136
Sure but in practice the engineering and/or construction firm might not even exist 40 years later and the responsible principals could all be dead.
That’s a very good point - it might not even matter who is at fault.
 

hal2kilo

Lifer
Feb 24, 2009
24,163
10,844
136
I swear, the standards people better get back to work. I heard all kinds of comments that, well that's what you expect from a 40 year old condo that wasn't maintained properly. I'm assuming that most of these were typically built with tension cables installed on all the floors. Those cannot be compromised. It's not just rebar. I wouldn't be surprised that after they start inspecting a lot of those condos, there will be some emergency evacuations.
.
It's already happening.

Florida condo building deemed unsafe, evacuation ordered - ABC News (go.com)
 

MtnMan

Diamond Member
Jul 27, 2004
8,938
8,144
136
Was this an issue that if detected and addressed before it became a threat, maybe 10 - 20 years ago, would have been a lot less expensive to drop on the residents?
Or even insurance if the issues are the result of long ago hurricane damage.
 

BlueWeasel

Lifer
Jun 2, 2000
15,943
475
126
How long is a structure supposed to stand without any maintenance? Clearly it had some integrity because it survived for 40 years and through several hurricanes. Are the designers and builders on the hook for eternity?

As a PE, I'll find a different career if my design liability extends to the life of the building.
 
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