120hz Question

[UpstartXT]

Hey there, I am shopping for monitors, and I was wondering about 120hz vs. 60hz. I am aware that 120hz means it is Nvidia 3d capable given that you have the peripherals and etc.

Question 1: As a pretty hardcore gamer I am more interested in the differences between 120hz and 60hz for 2D gaming. Is there necessarily reduced ghosting? What about necessarily reduced input lag?

The reason I am asking is because I was checking out some 27" monitors and I'm really wanting that size of a monitor, but the only one with 120hz is the new Acer HN274H which only has one review which talks more about 3D stuff than 2D (being it is a blog focusing on 3D technology).

Question 2: The review DOES go into some detail about ghosting in 3D mode (I'm only caring about ghosting in 2D mode). Is there generally more ghosting in 3D compared to the same monitor in 2D? Or can I assume the amount of ghosting he talks about is going to also be in its 2D mode?

 

[OILFIELDTRASH]

Get a 120hz monitor it has what you're looking for.

 

[Ben90]

If you have a semi modern TN panel currently, ghosting shouldn't be a problem already. Response times plummeted around 2005 with the wide use of overdrive as RTC. There will technically be very slight ghosting when running at 120hz during some tough pixel transitions such as brown to reddish brown. This is completely 100% not a problem in 2D mode, even for the most hardcore of gamers.

3D is another story however. Even the slightest amount of ghosting with active shutter glasses becomes very apparent. Since you are not worried about 3D, I recommend not worrying too much about ghosting since all the panels are more or less the same.

What does matter is the input delay created by the controller. I haven't been keeping pace with 120hz monitors since I bought the original 2233RZ. But I do know this monitor has about a frame of input delay compared to a CRT. I would try to find tests on different monitors to see how long the controller takes to process the frame. I don't know if there are any monitors to stay away from. I doubt it however, as I'd imagine they are pretty gaming oriented.

 

[UpstartXT]

To quote the review I put in the original post for the 27" 120hz HN274H I'm looking at, "The monitor exhibits some input lag, the values measured vary from 0 to 16 ms with an average of about 8 ms."

That monitor is $699

The 60hz monitor I would probably go with instead is this ASUS VE278Q

That monitor is $339

So is the input lag + ghosting difference + the novelty of playing in 3D (which I've never tried so I can't really judge well) = 699-339 = $360?

 

[LiuKangBakinPie]

120hz vs. 60hz=myth

http://www.extremetech.com/article2/0,2845,2356408,00.asp

 

[BTRY B 529th FA BN]

60Hz you will have noticable input lag
120Hz if any input lag exists it will be less than the 60Hz

 

[LiuKangBakinPie]

120mhz you have a bigger headroom to play iwth. depends on your gpu. If it carves up frames like theres no tommorrow a 120mhz would be perfect.

here are some monitor options
Samsung PX2370
http://www.amazon.com/dp/B003HFG6S0...5093&creativeASIN=B003HFG6S0&tag=cnet-3297-20

Asus VH236H
http://www.amazon.com/dp/B002453K5G...5105&creativeASIN=B002453K5G&tag=cnet-3297-20

 

[UpstartXT]

Well my computer has a i7 920 @3.6ghz, 6GB RAM, and a GTX 570, so I am able to stay above 100 frames in the FPS's I play.

LiuKang, it seems like your two posts are contradictory. The first one (#5) lists an article saying 120mhz actually introduces MORE ghosting, then you say in #7 that 120mhz would be perfect.

Also, I am really wanting to go 27"

 

[Dkcode]

For FPS gaming 120hz has no alternative.

If you can afford it get a 120hz for gaming and an IPS/VA for everything else.

Multiple monitors has lots of benefits anyway.

 

[LiuKangBakinPie]

Well my computer has a i7 920 @3.6ghz, 6GB RAM, and a GTX 570, so I am able to stay above 100 frames in the FPS's I play.

LiuKang, it seems like your two posts are contradictory. The first one (#5) lists an article saying 120mhz actually introduces MORE ghosting, then you say in #7 that 120mhz would be perfect.

Also, I am really wanting to go 27"

No. The test I linked doesnt show one creates more ghosting nor anything. What it does show manufacturers are lying and no where near their reported specs and some of their technologies degrade the image quality more than increasing it or smoothing it out. Then again you should know LCDs dont have a refresh rate they just emulate it to be compatible with the hardware the old crts were compatible with. Monitors differ from manufacturer tio manufacturer.

If you really want to read up on refresh rate, fps and gaming read this please
http://www.tweakguides.com/Graphics_7.html

 

[guy93]

I just bought the BenQ 120Hz monitor yesterday, and oh my goodness, it is AMAZING! You must get it!

 

[BTRY B 529th FA BN]

I just bought the ***** 120Hz monitor yesterday, and oh my goodness, it is AMAZING! You must get it!

When people try to sell you on other BS, re read ^

 

[UpstartXT]

Damn, so much controversy on this issue.

BTRY B 529th, For me personally, I really want a 27" monitor. So going from 60hz to 120hz means an extra $350 at that price range.


http://www.newegg.com/Product/Produc...82E16824236103

vs.

http://www.newegg.com/Product/Produc...82E16824009300

Liu, I read through that article. I've seen a lot of that guy's articles and it's a good site. I am aware of the market hype regarding response times and the like, but it doesn't say anywhere in there really about 120hz vs. 60hz in terms of noticeable differences in input lag or ghosting.

 

[Ben90]

Liu, I read through that article. I've seen a lot of that guy's articles and it's a good site. I am aware of the market hype regarding response times and the like, but it doesn't say anywhere in there really about 120hz vs. 60hz in terms of noticeable differences in input lag or ghosting.

It's hard to word this because I'm not very articulate. I'm honestly deciding to write a few thousand word post in the near future to clear up a lot of these 120Hz vs 60Hz threads. If there is one thing I want you to take away from this post, remember:

Get a 120Hz monitor if you want 120Hz. Its stupidly simple, but OILFIELDTRASH hit the nail on the head with the very first post. Anyways....

The refresh rate has no appreciable effect on ghosting. I can think of constructed scenarios in which it will change the image, but for our purposes, the refresh rate has no effect on ghosting. The panel itself is what matters here. We cannot make blanket statements saying 120Hz ghosts more than 60Hz, because the panel determines this. To make this even less meaningful, a lot of panels used in 120Hz monitors are also used in 60Hz monitors. Even less still, the same model monitor can use multiple types of panels. Bait and switches have happened countless times with monitors. If you were shopping for IPS panels a few years ago you know exactly what I'm talking about.

To sum up the previous paragraph for emphasis: Don't worry about ghosting too much. No monitor that you will be looking at can handle 100% ghost free 120Hz. Its just life. Ghosting mattered years ago when LCD panels were new and slow. It only matters now for non-TN monitors and active shutter 3D. If you were the type to worry about the amount of ghosting current TN monitors create, you would be on a multi-thousand CRT right now. You're not on a professional grade CRT, don't worry about 2011 TN monitors ghosting for 2D.


Now for input delay. I'm not going to research every controller for you because that would take too much time. Research this on the monitors you are considering. I will say that the simple transition from 60Hz->120Hz will free up 8.3ms with everything else being equal.


I'll draw you a picture.

 

[Petey!]

120hz vs. 60hz=myth

http://www.extremetech.com/article2/0,2845,2356408,00.asp

You realize you quoted an article that talks about 120hz HDTVs and not 120hz monitors right?

 

[BTRY B 529th FA BN]

You realize you quoted an article that talks about 120hz HDTVs and not 120hz monitors right?

Funny, when people are talking in a computer forum, they think of TVs

EDIT: do people just not know there are "True" 120Hz LCD computer monitors out there.. ???

 

[Petey!]

Funny, when people are talking in a computer forum, they think of TVs

EDIT: do people just not know there are "True" 120Hz LCD computer monitors out there.. ???

This is the reason there is so much disinformation. People see 120hz, then come in and spit all this useless info about 120hz TVs, when 120hz monitors are a COMPLETELY different thing all together.

 

[snuuggles]

This is the reason there is so much disinformation. People see 120hz, then come in and spit all this useless info about 120hz TVs, when 120hz monitors are a COMPLETELY different thing all together.

Just to be clear, the article does talk about ghosting, which as someone else on this thread pointed out, has *nothing* to do with the refresh rate. So while many people conflate 120hz interpolated with 120hz input displays, in this case the article still may be of some value to someone who is concerned about ghosting.

Anyways, OP, I'm in the *exact same* boat as you. Not interested in 3d, want better motion resolution in 2d. I'm going to wait for the hn274h to become available on amazon or some place I can return it in case I don't like it.

FYI, I've been trying out a 42" Plasma (Panasonic TC-P42ST30) since I heard they have little/no ghosting and I don't use my monitor for much besides gaming.

My advice: DON'T BOTHER with plasma. Yes, it's ghost-free (really, it's amazing), but ugh:

1. it buzzes in bright scenes (endemic to plasma)
2. it dithers (weird crawling sensation on still images)
3. it's just too damn big.

If I could get a 32" version that didn't buzz or dither, it would be so amazing and worth every penny. But I'm going to return it and try the 120hz Acer when it becomes available at somewhere other than Newegg.

HTH!

 

[UpstartXT]

@Ben90: lol you say it's plain and simple that one should buy a 120hz monitor over a 60hz monitor, but when you back that up you say the real difference is less input lag, which some argue can't be noticed compared to some models, not to mention whether this difference is worth the THREE HUNDRED DOLLARS it would cost to move up from the 60hz monitor I am considering to the 120hz monitor I am considering. See how the issue gets muddied up when you enter the extreme price difference at the 27" level? BTW, that 60hz monitor is said to have "Input lag is so low it falls below the threshold of visibility to the naked eye" in this review. Note in the paragraph above, it says that monitor is good for people who aren't willing to put up the cash to go 120hz. But again, if input lag is the only difference at the 2D level, and the input lag on the VE278Q is so low you can't notice it, then what reason would there be to pay more for a 120hz?

@snuuggles: so for you, given the same preferences as me, your mind is already made up that the HN274H is the way to go, assuming you can get it at a place with a good return policy. So you find the less input lag to be worth the approx 3-400 buck price difference, or is the something else as well?

 

[BTRY B 529th FA BN]

You get a couple of benefits from a 120Hz LCD computer monitor. A smoother 2d game motion and less input lag.

Miss my CRT, *sigh*

 

[UpstartXT]

You get a couple of benefits from a 120Hz LCD computer monitor. A smoother 2d game motion and less input lag.

Miss my CRT, *sigh*

The last CRT I had turned my expensive desk into a U-shape from the weight lol!

 

[BTRY B 529th FA BN]

The last CRT I had turned my expensive desk into a U-shape from the weight lol!

Yeah, hah!

I could also feel the heat coming from it, and I honestly got headaches from it...

Had a Tri-TON Sony 19" - but it was BAD-A** for gaming!!!

 

[snuuggles]

@snuuggles: so for you, given the same preferences as me, your mind is already made up that the HN274H is the way to go, assuming you can get it at a place with a good return policy. So you find the less input lag to be worth the approx 3-400 buck price difference, or is the something else as well?

Image lag plus ghosting. Note that even though 120hz doesn't actually address the ghosting issue, the fact that this is built to display 3d *should* mean that the manufacturer has to deliver excellent, uh, ghost-free-ishness as 3d is especially sensitive to this issue. Does that make sense?

It just feels like the 3d monitors are built to display an especially challanging kind of image, so I'm just crossing my fingers that this will mean that my particular irritations will happen to get addressed by coincidence.

To give you an example of the issues I have, I've been trying to play this old(er) game called 'Divine Divinity'. It was made back in the crt days, and it uses a particular art style that is *incredibly* difficult for lcds to display (presumably because of all the fine detail and brown colors, who knows?).

None of the lcd tvs/monitors I've tried it on are able to display it without horrible "strobing" effect, which I chalked up to the pixels not refreshing fast enough (again, I'm not actually sure what's going on). I tried some modern lcd tvs and monitors, to no avail. When I brought home the plasma, the issue completely dissappeared. Completely. But, buzzing, dithering, etc.

So, I'm just kind of hoping the 120hz 3d monitors will do the same. Who knows, they may not, in which case I'll just give up on the damn game.

 

[snuuggles]

Yeah, hah!

I could also feel the heat coming from it, and I honestly got headaches from it...

Had a Tri-TON Sony 19" - but it was BAD-A** for gaming!!!

I had a 22" iiyama "diamondtron" CRT. I gave it away 2 years ago, should have just kept it for my old games

 

[LiuKangBakinPie]

@Ben90: lol you say it's plain and simple that one should buy a 120hz monitor over a 60hz monitor, but when you back that up you say the real difference is less input lag, which some argue can't be noticed compared to some models, not to mention whether this difference is worth the THREE HUNDRED DOLLARS it would cost to move up from the 60hz monitor I am considering to the 120hz monitor I am considering. See how the issue gets muddied up when you enter the extreme price difference at the 27" level? BTW, that 60hz monitor is said to have "Input lag is so low it falls below the threshold of visibility to the naked eye" in this review. Note in the paragraph above, it says that monitor is good for people who aren't willing to put up the cash to go 120hz. But again, if input lag is the only difference at the 2D level, and the input lag on the VE278Q is so low you can't notice it, then what reason would there be to pay more for a 120hz?

@snuuggles: so for you, given the same preferences as me, your mind is already made up that the HN274H is the way to go, assuming you can get it at a place with a good return policy. So you find the less input lag to be worth the approx 3-400 buck price difference, or is the something else as well?

Since when does a LCD refresh? Its not a CRT. Yes we see one so its compatible with our hardware like a gpu.
Response time is setting we must refer to rather than refresh rate.
Now lets look at a LCD with a labelled response rate of 2ms.
Now lets see what refresh rate it can emulate
1000/2 = 500hz

Far over 500 ain't it.
Ok the connection limits us to 120hz. Don't think you will see much LCDs running at 60hz with a 2 response time. Alarm bells must ring when you see something like that honestly *cough HANS cough* you have to remember a gpu doesn't know anything about your monitor. It will race ahead unless you enable vsync which tells it about that limitation. But how many go and install or go out and use Rivatuner to make a driver for your monitor? Who use the windows native driver for your monitor?