120hz Question

[LiuKangBakinPie]

You realize you quoted an article that talks about 120hz HDTVs and not 120hz monitors right?

Please tell me the difference between a LCD hdtv and LCD pc monitor except for the fact 1 got normally a bigger screen and the other a smaller screen. One is made to sit back on the couch and look at it and the other was made to sit up close and look at it. But they both work the same way use the same technology.

 

[UpstartXT]

Since when does a LCD refresh? Its not a CRT. Yes we see one so its compatible with our hardware like a gpu.
Response time is setting we must refer to rather than refresh rate.
Now lets look at a LCD with a labelled response rate of 2ms.
Now lets see what refresh rate it can emulate
1000/2 = 500hz

Far over 500 ain't it.
Ok the connection limits us to 120hz. Don't think you will see much LCDs running at 60hz with a 2 response time. Alarm bells must ring when you see something like that honestly *cough HANS cough* you have to remember a gpu doesn't know anything about your monitor. It will race ahead unless you enable vsync which tells it about that limitation. But how many go and install or go out and use Rivatuner to make a driver for your monitor? Who use the windows native driver for your monitor?

Okay I understand the difference between response time and refresh rate. Or I think I do after reading those articles.

Response time is the time it takes for a given monitor's pixels to transition. The idea is the longer the response time, the more of a ghost the image will be left across your screen because the pixels don't change quickly enough.

Refresh rate is something that originated from CRTs, and is measured in hertz. CRTs would blank the screen and then draw a new image according to the hertz of the monitor. 60hz, it does that process 60 times a second. Your eyes can't perceive the blanking, so it appears as a solid image. All of the games and video stuff was made to work with this technology.

When LCDs came out, in order to still work with old software and hardware made for CRTs, they made the refresh rate similar to CRTs, except on an LCD there is no blanking. The image is still being updated according to the refresh rate just like on CRTs, however.

Alarm bells should not ring if a monitor states a 2ms response time on a 60hz monitor. Each time the monitor refreshes, the pixels are able to change to that image within 2ms of that information being received (due the varying difficulty depending on the type of transition, the response times will actually vary). Then the monitor sits there with that image waiting for the next time it refreshes. Where's the problem with that?

Yes, there is marketing BS that goes on with response times because they can specifically engineer the monitor to be awesome at GTG transitions, which is what the typical response time spec is referring to, and yet have terrible response when handling harder to do transitions. But 2ms is not impossible on a 60hz monitor.

The only time you will get the computer "racing ahead" is when your FPS is very high relative to the refresh rate. This means the computer is sending out new images to the monitor faster than the monitor can initiate the changes, so maybe half the monitor is displaying one image and half is already displaying a newer image. This is called tearing. You seem to be mixing this up with response times.

 

[JAG87]

Please tell me the difference between a LCD hdtv and LCD pc monitor except for the fact 1 got normally a bigger screen and the other a smaller screen. One is made to sit back on the couch and look at it and the other was made to sit up close and look at it. But they both work the same way use the same technology.

A 120Hz PC monitor accepts a 120Hz signal and displays 120 images per second. Most advertised 120Hz HDTVs accept only 24 or 60Hz and display 120 images per second by duplicating frames so that they can avoid doing 3:2 pull down with 24Hz inputs. They also have a mode (called "smooth" or some other synonym) that interpolates new frames to create a smoother picture.

You should just stop posting, you have no idea what you're talking about.

 

[iCyborg]

Alarm bells must ring when you see something like that honestly *cough HANS cough* you have to remember a gpu doesn't know anything about your monitor. It will race ahead unless you enable vsync which tells it about that limitation.

The only time you will get the computer "racing ahead" is when your FPS is very high relative to the refresh rate. This means the computer is sending out new images to the monitor faster than the monitor can initiate the changes, so maybe half the monitor is displaying one image and half is already displaying a newer image. This is called tearing. You seem to be mixing this up with response times.

While I agree on some of the other points with both of you guys, this is not correct, GPU knows what kind of screen it's connected to, what modes and timings it supports and if it's 60 Hz it will only send out 60Hz. Google "EDID" to find out how it gets that info.

When FPS is very high, it's the GPU's frame buffer that will be overwritten by the rendering part before the display part of the GPU sends out the previous frame, so you get tearing, i.e. different parts of the screen may display different frames. The data that monitor receives is always at the same rate.

 

[Ben90]

@Ben90: lol you say it's plain and simple that one should buy a 120hz monitor over a 60hz monitor, but when you back that up you say the real difference is less input lag, which some argue can't be noticed compared to some models, not to mention whether this difference is worth the THREE HUNDRED DOLLARS it would cost to move up from the 60hz monitor I am considering to the 120hz monitor I am considering.

No one can tell you if 120Hz is worth it for you, make that decision based on your own finances/wants. I'm honest to god saving up for a used green Lamborghini Murcielago without e-gear. That's worth it to me.
I don't go around to people buying SSDs and saying: "OMFG you are so stupid, you should have spent that money on 1/1000th of a used Lamborghini what a waste." A SSD is worth it to them. Its not worth it to me based on my finances and wants.
Seriously, we can't tell you if the price increase is worth it or not.


The reason to get 120Hz monitors is to run them at 120Hz. They are all going to be better than or equal to 60Hz monitors when it comes to input delay and ghosting.

 

[Dkcode]

120Hz monitors are incredibly smooth. It makes gaming more enjoyable.

Of course this is down to the person using the screen; for me the latter statement applies.

Some people claim they can't notice a difference, you cannot argue as you cannot see the world through anyone else's eyes other than your own.

Its like arguing about the perception of colours; how do you argue the colour green?

You can compare specs; which are usually equal to 60Hz gaming monitors in terms of input lag, as Ben90 but it; you buy them to run at 120Hz and they will at least match the slower refresh monitors in terms of input lag and response times.

Best thing to do is go out and try one and see if the smoother motion is something you wish to shell out the extra $$$ for.

I think they are worth it; therefore my opinion will be biased in favour of purchasing one.

 

[Petey!]

Please tell me the difference between a LCD hdtv and LCD pc monitor except for the fact 1 got normally a bigger screen and the other a smaller screen. One is made to sit back on the couch and look at it and the other was made to sit up close and look at it. But they both work the same way use the same technology.

Your kidding me right?

Oh you know, one uses crappy ass frame interpolation to make "120hz" and the other accepts a true 120hz signal which makes a world of difference. They DON'T use the same technology and are much different. Man your ignorant.

You clearly have never used a 120hz PC monitor, and therefor shouldn't be commenting on anything.

 

[Fallen Kell]

The reason to get 120Hz monitors is to run them at 120Hz. They are all going to be better than or equal to 60Hz monitors when it comes to input delay and ghosting.

As another person already stated the reason that 120Hz monitors exist is because the term "120Hz" became a marketing term for TV's and since many TV's are also LCD's, it became a "we need that too" thing on our marketing. 3D is finally pushing a legitimate reason for 120Hz technology, and is finally forcing REAL 120Hz at the input stage. All 120Hz up until now was simply an internal process of the screen as it allowed 24 fps movie format, 30 fps NTSB TV format, and 60fps HD formats to all be displayed without stuttering due to un-even frame duplication (you will notice that 120 is evenly divisible by 24, 30, and 60, which is why it was the value decided upon).

We are finally getting monitors which accept a 120Hz input. While there have been monitors and TV's that advertise as 120Hz or even 240Hz for years now. Again, up until now, it has mostly just been a marketing thing on computer monitors. On TV's there was a legitimate reason, and that was due to the multiple video formats with different frame rates, but those TV's can not accept a signal of 120Hz or 240Hz, it was just an internal frame duplication/scaling.

 

[Ben90]

As another person already stated the reason that 120Hz monitors exist is because the term "120Hz" became a marketing term for TV's and since many TV's are also LCD's, it became a "we need that too" thing on our marketing. 3D is finally pushing a legitimate reason for 120Hz technology, and is finally forcing REAL 120Hz at the input stage. All 120Hz up until now was simply an internal process of the screen as it allowed 24 fps movie format, 30 fps NTSB TV format, and 60fps HD formats to all be displayed without stuttering due to un-even frame duplication (you will notice that 120 is evenly divisible by 24, 30, and 60, which is why it was the value decided upon).

We are finally getting monitors which accept a 120Hz input. While there have been monitors and TV's that advertise as 120Hz or even 240Hz for years now. Again, up until now, it has mostly just been a marketing thing on computer monitors. On TV's there was a legitimate reason, and that was due to the multiple video formats with different frame rates, but those TV's can not accept a signal of 120Hz or 240Hz, it was just an internal frame duplication/scaling.

ok

 

[WMD]

Since when does a LCD refresh? Its not a CRT. Yes we see one so its compatible with our hardware like a gpu.
Response time is setting we must refer to rather than refresh rate.
Now lets look at a LCD with a labelled response rate of 2ms.
Now lets see what refresh rate it can emulate
1000/2 = 500hz

Far over 500 ain't it.
Ok the connection limits us to 120hz. Don't think you will see much LCDs running at 60hz with a 2 response time. Alarm bells must ring when you see something like that honestly *cough HANS cough* you have to remember a gpu doesn't know anything about your monitor. It will race ahead unless you enable vsync which tells it about that limitation. But how many go and install or go out and use Rivatuner to make a driver for your monitor? Who use the windows native driver for your monitor?

Myth: LCDs does not refresh.
Fact: LCDs must refresh to display a moving picture. Just because it does not flicker like a CRT doesn't mean it does not refresh. Flicker= /=Refresh

Myth: A 2ms monitor can emulate a refresh of 500Hz
Fact: The LCD must still wait for its refresh interval to update its image which is 16ms for a 60Hz panel.

Myth: The GPU does not know anything about the monitor.
Fact: The GPU must know when the monitor refresh to present the output image. Otherwise vsync will not be possible.

Bottomline:
A 60Hz monitor can show a max framerate of 60fps no matter how fast the gpu renders. A 120Hz monitor is twice that.
Screen tearing is less perceived with a 120Hz monitor due to shorter intervals between refresh producing smaller and briefer tears. Ghosting is less perceived with a 120Hz monitor due to reduced sample and hold effect and smaller gap between ghost image and current image.

 

[Sonikku]

You get a couple of benefits from a 120Hz LCD computer monitor. A smoother 2d game motion and less input lag.

Miss my CRT, *sigh*

I hear that. I used a Sony FW900 for three years before it finally kicked the bucket. Got it $300 used. A bargain :'(

The Asus 23" LED I got a year ago sure seems mighty slim compared to that Juggernaut, but my gosh these flat panals sure do seem mediocre when it comes to colors, blacks and choppy video in rapid movement situations. Oh yeah, and the sony did 1920x1200 over VGA. This crap about needing a digital DVI/HDMI to push 1080p is bullshit.

 

[Googer]

120hz, forget it. 600hz Panasonic ST30 Plasma is where it's at.

Larger sizes are availble in the ST30 line.

 

[toyota]

how many people here actually know what they are talking about? I used to come here for advice and it is sad to see just how ignorant some of the replies can be in a thread like this.

 

[Dribble]

lol

I do, buy a true 120hz monitor with a 120hz input (dual dvi) and low input lag (some aren't so good in this department) - it is much better for fast paced games. It's the closest thing you'll get to a CRT. tbh all those of us who already have one don't mind if no-one else gets it because it gives us an edge over them in fps's - it is easier to hit stuff with a good 120hz monitor.

 

[VI3L]

There is a massive difference in fast paced games with TRUE 120hz, don't listen to people who don't know the difference. I play at 120hz with no vsync and its smoother than any gamers setup i have EVER seen, Aiming is more accurate also.

Even my girlfriend who can't tell the difference between Bluray and DVD can tell its smoother...

As of 10/7/2011 this is the best 27 inch 120hz monitor out, it blows away the Acer.

http://www.newegg.com/Product/Produc...2&Tpk=s27a950d

The 3d is ok, but i bought it for the 120hz 2d and it delivers. Quake live, cs, bfbc2 even mmos look rediculous on this thing. Make sure to get the S model and not the T. Also plug it in via the supplied DVI cable. Good luck!

Take it from a pro lvl quaker, 120hz will improve your gaming experience.

 

[toyota]

what are my good LED 120hz 23-24 inch options???

 

[VI3L]

what are my good LED 120hz 23-24 inch options???

Samsung has a 23 inch version of the monitor i posted above.

http://www.newegg.com/Product/Produc...82E16824001473

BenQ has the 23.6 monitor also.

http://www.newegg.com/Product/Produc...82E16824014241

The BenQ looks like crap out of the box and requires alot of tweaking to look decent. My friend has 3 of these in an eyefinity setup and I think the Samsung blows it away.

I'm not sure if there are any other 120hz LED displays in that size range, but these are probably the top picks. The Samsung is the way to go!

 

[toyota]

is the Samsung a glossy screen though? if so that's a no go for me. heck I wish I could find a screen without glossy bezels too. that is asinine for a monitor as it reflects the screen on inside edges of the bezels.

and that BenQ is a joke from what I have read. it performed worse in that little moving car test than some slower response 60hz monitors.

EDIT: the BenQ issue seems to be with trailing from its overdrive implementation.

 

[VI3L]

It is glossy but it is not an issue for me, I have controlled lighting in my gaming room. If you have a window behind your monitor then ya its a problem. Otherwise it makes the colors really pop.

 

[toyota]

It is glossy but it is not an issue for me, I have controlled lighting in my gaming room. If you have a window behind your monitor then ya its a problem. Otherwise it makes the colors really pop.

no window behind me but I have tried glossy screens and they are just too annoying for me even with just a little light in the room.

 

[WMD]

what are my good led 120hz 23-24 inch options???

lg w2363d

 

[VI3L]

lg w2363d

That's an lcd, still a good monitor though!

 

[toyota]

That's an lcd, still a good monitor though!

well they are all LCD. I just want one that has LED backlight.

 

[Dribble]

lg w2363d

That's what I've got. It's an old model now - they were going stupidly cheap for a while but now mostly out of stock.

 

[VI3L]

well they are all LCD. I just want one that has LED backlight.

You know what I meant