1440p gaming

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Black Octagon

Golden Member
Dec 10, 2012
1,410
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Yeah... except I had 120Hz Samsung TN panels flanking my Overlord IPS. All at 120Hz.

How's about we just leave it at subjective, can we? Because my Overlord does 120Hz very well. Only reason I'm picking up an XL2720T is for Lightboost, not because my Overlord is anything other than excellent for me.

Jack, I'll be looking forward to your comparison between the overclocked Tempest and the BenQ with LB. I hope you'll keep your Samsung(s) a bit longer too so that we can have a comparison between the 3.

I fully expect all 3 to have the motion fluidity of 'real' 120hz but for you to notice the motion blur of the Samsung and Tempest more after some time with the BenQ...and for you to ultimate wish you could combine the best of all 3 (I.e., zero motion blur, 120hz, IPS 1440p).
 

Black Octagon

Golden Member
Dec 10, 2012
1,410
2
81
A couple more thoughts from my side as to why LB is not completely relevant to this discussion:

1) Mark Rehjon himself regularly acknowledges that there is MORE tearing with LB enabled, not to mention a downgrade of the monitor's color reproduction capabilities

2) Although LB wins in the motion smoothness department due to no motion blur, you NEED your fps to match the refresh rate at all times. As soon as the framerate dips the benefits disappear. By contrast, a normal 120hz screen (including an overclocked IPS) delivers improved smoothness even in cases where the frame rate is lagging behind the refresh rate

3) Finally, LB is of most benefit to those who are very sensitive to motion blur, or who remember the best days on CRT gaming all too well. Like tearing, motion blur seems to bother different people to different extents

Disclaimer: I have NOT (yet) experienced LB but have read the above posted several times by various users
 
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kahless1979

Member
Aug 29, 2013
32
3
66
Received my Dell U2713HM on Friday. It is a fairly dramatic difference. My old monitor was a 27" Samsung LED 1080p. The colors and details really jump out. Some things almost have a 3-dimensional effect they are so vibrant. The performance hit I took isn't even noticeable in many games and others its tolerable without lowering anything. No dead pixels and the Cross Hatch problem many people seem to report with this monitor doesn't seem to exist on this one or at least my vision isn't good enough to see it.
 

Mark Rejhon

Senior member
Dec 13, 2012
273
1
71
1) Mark Rehjon himself regularly acknowledges that there is MORE tearing with LB enabled
Clarification: More accurately "Tearing is MORE noticeable". Physically and scientifically, the number of tearlines is exactly the same. What happens is traditionally, motion blur on traditional LCD's makes minor tearing harder to see. The motion clarity on a CRT, plasma, or LightBoost, simply makes tearing easier to see by the human eye. It is not specific to LightBoost, but a behavior of all flicker-type displays.

not to mention a downgrade of the monitor's color reproduction capabilities
Correct, especially on VG248QE's. The degradation is less on several other models such as VG278H, and can be calibrated to the point where it is not a problem, as long as you aren't expecting extremely bright screens.

quote2) Although LB wins in the motion smoothness department due to no motion blur, you NEED your fps to match the refresh rate at all times. As soon as the framerate dips the benefits disappear.
Clarification:: The benefits don't completely disappear until your framerate is low. However, the clarity improvements is the most drastic/dramatic when framerates matches Hz (perfectly zero microstutters).
-- For example, LightBoost at 80fps may only be a few percent smoother looking than non-LightBoost. Just a smaller number of people see benefits, but several do and still prefer it.
-- Motion clarity of strobed displays (CRT, LightBoost, plasma) makes it easier for the human eye to see microstutters at higher refresh rates. If you've viewed www.testufo.com on a CRT and then again on LCD, then you already understand what I mean.
-- That said, LightBoost at framerates matching Hz (locked framerate, ala VSYNC ON, or Adaptive VSYNC) can look several times clearer looking to the point where 120Hz-vs-LightBoost is far more dramatic than 60Hz-vs-120Hz for several LightBoost users like me. The dramatic LightBoost motion clarity dividends occurs during framerate locked motion (though VSYNC OFF at "insane framerates", such as 300fps, helps to reduce the amplified visibility of microstutters -- much like during ultra-high-framerate CRT gaming, if that's been your thing historically)

By contrast, a normal 120hz screen (including an overclocked IPS) delivers improved smoothness even in cases where the frame rate is lagging behind the refresh rate
Correct. Unlike CRT's (and LightBoost), the motion blur of regular LCD's masks the microstutters of fluctuating framerates (framerate/Hz mismatches), so it can look smoother if you prefer to let the framerate fluctuate quite a lot. On the other hand, it's also a personal preference whether LightBoost is enabled or disabled, as there are still benefits even at framerates lower than Hz, just not as dramatic as during 120fps@120Hz.

3) Finally, LB is of most benefit to those who are very sensitive to motion blur, or who remember the best days on CRT gaming all too well. Like tearing, motion blur seems to bother different people to different extents
Correct. LightBoost behaves like a 120Hz CRT, in terms of motion clarity/stutters/tearing. So you get exactly the same kind of amplified tearing visibility / microstutter visibility, as you do on CRT's. And if you still liked 80fps@120Hz on CRT's, then you will still probably like 80fps@120Hz on LightBoost. The stutter/tearing visibility is similar.

The chief "CRT experience" differentiator is that LightBoost color quality and more input lag than CRT's, though LightBoost (especially on calibrated 27" panels) can reportedly have better color quality than an old worn CRT. Several Sony W900 CRT users have switched to LightBoost to get a similiar experience, once their W900's were defective, and most switchers seemed generally pleased with LightBoost (except for the pristine-calibrated-CRT and black-level diehards, etc)
 
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Black Octagon

Golden Member
Dec 10, 2012
1,410
2
81
Thanks Mark, useful as always. Since you helped me start to get my head around this stuff the other week on [H], I came across this useful post of yours from OCUK: http://forums.overclockers.co.uk/showpost.php?p=23803464&postcount=24

Compared to a regular 60hz LCD, a LB-enabled 120hz screen delivers 80+% less motion blur. This is quite a lot more than 'normal' 120hz screens, which only deliver 50% less (motion blur due to sample and hold still remains)

I bring this up because it's relevant to the above discussion from yesterday. An IPS screen overclocked to 120hz also delivers less motion blur than a typical 60hz LCD, but only 40% less compared to the 50% less of native 120hz TNs. The reason for this 10% discrepancy is motion blur caused not by sample and hold but rather by the pixel persistence that comes with the IPS panels' (current) inability to have pixel response times below approximately 5ms / "below half the length of a screen refresh"

So yes, the above guys are right in that the response time of an IPS panel is a little too slow for the user to experience the same motion blur reduction as a native 120hz TN with a response time in the range of 1-4ms. THAT SAID, we are taking about a very small difference in the amount of motion blur reduction, probably only noticeable to certain people and when viewing certain types of fast motion. It does NOT mean that overclocking an IPS display is a "joke," nor does it prevent such an overclock from delivering substantive improvements to smoothness of motion, either in a desktop environment or a gaming environment where more than 60fps are being driven.

..voila. To the folks with whom I was arguing yesterday (cmdrdredd and blackened23): this post should be interpreted as me saying that I today see some merit in what you were trying to say, but that I still believe you (quite significantly) over-exaggerated the importance of the things you were saying
 
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QuantumPion

Diamond Member
Jun 27, 2005
6,010
1
76
I own a 120 hz TN (older one without LB) and a X-star IPS which OC's to 120 (well only 99 now that I have SLI, which imposes that limitation). The difference in motion blur between the TN and the IPS is unnoticeable to me, and I am fairly sensitive to motion blur in general.

To the previous poster complaining about number of inputs, the DVI-only panel is the one you want to get because these panels have no scalar or OSD and thus have minimal input lag. The panels which have multiple inputs have significantly more input lag. You need to use DVI to use 1440p so there's not much point in having extra inputs anyway. And there's no need for an OSD because these Samsung PLS panels have the best and most accurate out of the box color calibration known to date. Thorough review here: http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=0EMmNmvFcAA
 

PlanetJosh

Golden Member
May 6, 2013
1,815
143
106
I notice the jump in clarity and color quality in games between my two Samsungs, the 27" 1440p > the old 24" 1080p. That's by appearance from me looking at the screens with the factory calibration and using Dynamic Constrast in options on both. Haven't calibrated either one on my own yet.

27” Samsung Led Lcd S27B970D replaced old 24” Samsung Led Lcd S24B300EL
i7 Quad 3820 3.6ghz || Radeon 7950 3gb || Win 7 Pro
Asus P9 X79 || DDR3 8gb || WD HD 1tb || Onboard Sound
Cooler Master 650W || Thermaltake Case
 
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skipsneeky2

Diamond Member
May 21, 2011
5,035
1
71
I think its mostly exaggeration. I played on a native 1440x900 screen and going 1080 in and of itself did not offer some magical image quality difference. its simply better because you get much more screen to work with. physically and more pixels. even 1440x900 still looks perfectly fine on screen where that that is native. its just to damn small of course to be useful nowadays.

Used to game on a 17'' 1440x900 monitor,size wasn't to terrible and i loved how well my old 7850 ran plenty of games almost maxed out but when i moved to this u2412m when my 17'' flaked out,it took ages to get used to it and often times i wish i had went with something like a 20''.

I game honestly better on smaller screens like the 20'' and smaller screens till about 17'',my eyes aren't strained so much after a few hours of gaming like they are on the 24'' but honestly the u2412m is not going no where,its just a observation at best.
 

toyota

Lifer
Apr 15, 2001
12,957
1
0
Used to game on a 17'' 1440x900 monitor,size wasn't to terrible and i loved how well my old 7850 ran plenty of games almost maxed out but when i moved to this u2412m when my 17'' flaked out,it took ages to get used to it and often times i wish i had went with something like a 20''.

I game honestly better on smaller screens like the 20'' and smaller screens till about 17'',my eyes aren't strained so much after a few hours of gaming like they are on the 24'' but honestly the u2412m is not going no where,its just a observation at best.
never heard of a 17 inch 1440x900 screen. they were all 19 inch as for as I know. you simply adjust the distance based on the size of the screen. for most normal sized desks, 30 inch migfht be more than some could handle. tbh 24 inch is starting to look pretty small to me though.
 

skipsneeky2

Diamond Member
May 21, 2011
5,035
1
71
never heard of a 17 inch 1440x900 screen. they were all 19 inch as for as I know. you simply adjust the distance based on the size of the screen. for most normal sized desks, 30 inch migfht be more than some could handle. tbh 24 inch is starting to look pretty small to me though.

The monitor was a emachines model,the quality was pretty sturdy and it was solid compared to your newer 20'' which often have wobbly stands and look incredibly cheap and that is why i miss it in a big way,for the $30 i paid it wasn't terrible.

The u2412m honestly can't be pushed back any further unless i pull my desk forward another inch or two then i could chance my monitor tipping over lol.
 

hans030390

Diamond Member
Feb 3, 2005
7,326
2
76
I own a 120 hz TN (older one without LB) and a X-star IPS which OC's to 120 (well only 99 now that I have SLI, which imposes that limitation). The difference in motion blur between the TN and the IPS is unnoticeable to me, and I am fairly sensitive to motion blur in general.

This is making me strongly consider one of the overclockable Korean monitors, as that was my main reason for pursuing a different monitor. This ended up being the VG248QE with LightBoost. While I love the clarity of LB, I find about half of my games run fast enough to use it without stuttering/judder (steady 100fps or more). The other half I have to use without LB. It's a bit of a PITA having to turn LB on/off and change the color profile every time I do so. It's not hard...just annoying. And the LB tool is buggy, but that's not unexpected. And if you forget to turn it on or off before you start the game, you'll likely have to close the game to change your settings. Changing LB + ICC profile when a game is running tends to cause the game to crash or have a black screen for me.

Not to mention the VG248QE has OK-at-best colors and an even worse contrast ratio. It's all about the LightBoost, which I can't even use half the time.

For me, having 120Hz is more important than LB, and while I notice a very clear difference between it being on and off, I'm usually too focused on the game while playing to really notice the difference when it's off.

I can take a bit of motion blur. I was perfectly fine with my older 120Hz Asus monitor that did not have LB. I was fine with the 60Hz Asus I had before that even. I've used some other monitors and TVs that just gave me a headache and made me feel nauseous due to motion blur.

But, if you're sensitive to it, and you didn't notice much of a difference, I'm beginning to wonder if one of the 1440p monitors overclocked to at least 96Hz would make more sense for me than the LB monitor I'm currently using.
 

Black Octagon

Golden Member
Dec 10, 2012
1,410
2
81
^Based on the earlier discussions about IPS monitors' responee times, i'm starting to wonder if a 96Hz overclock (of the Catleap 2B, Tempest OC etc.) might actually be better than a 120Hz overclock in terms of balancing responsiveness with motion blur due to pixel persistence.
 

QuantumPion

Diamond Member
Jun 27, 2005
6,010
1
76
^Based on the earlier discussions about IPS monitors' responee times, i'm starting to wonder if a 96Hz overclock (of the Catleap 2B, Tempest OC etc.) might actually be better than a 120Hz overclock in terms of balancing responsiveness with motion blur due to pixel persistence.

I never had any pixel persistence or other artifacts running at 120 hz. I only OC my monitor to play games and turn it back to 60 hz when I'm done though. The only downside to monitor OC is that it shifts the gamma quite a bit the higher you go. I found that at least BF3 uses the nvidia color correction settings so the gamma can be adjusted back to normal, but I'm not sure if all games do.

But, if you're sensitive to it, and you didn't notice much of a difference, I'm beginning to wonder if one of the 1440p monitors overclocked to at least 96Hz would make more sense for me than the LB monitor I'm currently using.

For me personally it's input lag which is far more annoying and distracting. And these DVI-only panels have very low input lag. As long as the panel's response time is not abysmally slow, the blur does not really bother me. And the amazing image quality more than makes up for the blur that is there.

I have not seen a LB monitor in person and I think that may be the future of high speed gaming but from what I hear there are too many downsides to LB to make it practical for normal gaming (having to use lowest graphics settings to maintain frame rate, bad colors and image quality, etc).
 

Black Octagon

Golden Member
Dec 10, 2012
1,410
2
81
I never had any pixel persistence or other artifacts running at 120 hz..

Well me neither (overclocked IPS here, not PLS) but Mark Rehjon has infected me with a motion blur fascination!

I don't really notice persistence in-game but if I run PixPerAn or the TestUFO Ghosting tool I can obviously see some blur (these aren't LB monitors, after all). I wish I still had my Samsung 950D so that I could compare the blur on each monitor at the same time, but alas, I cannot. So, more out of academic interest, I'm interested in seeing whether an overclock of 96Hz has less blur in these tests than a 120Hz overclock
 

hans030390

Diamond Member
Feb 3, 2005
7,326
2
76
The only downside to monitor OC is that it shifts the gamma quite a bit the higher you go. I found that at least BF3 uses the nvidia color correction settings so the gamma can be adjusted back to normal, but I'm not sure if all games do.

Ah, crap. One more thing I'd have to deal with. Trade offs no matter where you look.
 

QuantumPion

Diamond Member
Jun 27, 2005
6,010
1
76
Ah, crap. One more thing I'd have to deal with. Trade offs no matter where you look.

It's a minor inconvenience. Really, it's totally worth it for the quality of the monitor. Not only do the PLS panels have amazing colors and contrast, but they are very color accurate out of the box without needing a colorimeter. It's hard to describe how good the image quality is compared to a TN because it's in a totally different galaxy. And for only $300, it's seriously a no-brainer. The worst that could happen is you get a monitor with defects you are unhappy with, just buy another and then sell the first one locally on craigslist or whatever. You're still looking at less than half the price of other models.
 

Smartazz

Diamond Member
Dec 29, 2005
6,128
0
76
I have an Achieva Shimian which I don't think overclocks. Would it be worth selling it and buying an overclockable monitor?
 

hans030390

Diamond Member
Feb 3, 2005
7,326
2
76
It's a minor inconvenience. Really, it's totally worth it for the quality of the monitor. Not only do the PLS panels have amazing colors and contrast, but they are very color accurate out of the box without needing a colorimeter. It's hard to describe how good the image quality is compared to a TN because it's in a totally different galaxy. And for only $300, it's seriously a no-brainer. The worst that could happen is you get a monitor with defects you are unhappy with, just buy another and then sell the first one locally on craigslist or whatever. You're still looking at less than half the price of other models.

I looked, and NCX had some color profiles for OCed Qnix monitors, and I'm assuming those correct the gamma as well. If it's a set-it-and-forget-it sort of deal, I'm OK with that.
 

Black Octagon

Golden Member
Dec 10, 2012
1,410
2
81
I looked, and NCX had some color profiles for OCed Qnix monitors, and I'm assuming those correct the gamma as well. If it's a set-it-and-forget-it sort of deal, I'm OK with that.

NCX does indeed have ICC profiles for the QNIX but says that the monitor he received needed barely any changes from the out-of-the-box settings at all
 

QuantumPion

Diamond Member
Jun 27, 2005
6,010
1
76
I have an Achieva Shimian which I don't think overclocks. Would it be worth selling it and buying an overclockable monitor?

If you are a hardcore shooter player and you really demand the fastest and smoothest image possible, sure. I consider myself fairly hardcore but I can still get by just fine on 60 hz if I had to.

I looked, and NCX had some color profiles for OCed Qnix monitors, and I'm assuming those correct the gamma as well. If it's a set-it-and-forget-it sort of deal, I'm OK with that.

I tried the color profiles but I don't think they looked quite right on my X-Star, and I'm not sure if those color profiles are used in 3d games or not. I just use the nvidia control panel color adjustment thing and the lagom gamma test to shift it up to the right spot, it only takes 5 seconds.
 

Black Octagon

Golden Member
Dec 10, 2012
1,410
2
81
I have an Achieva Shimian which I don't think overclocks. Would it be worth selling it and buying an overclockable monitor?

Depends...you're running a single 7950 so you won't by driving many games at 1440p@120fps, unless you turn down settings. If you're happy to do this (as I am, absolutely) then go for it.
 

Triglet

Senior member
Nov 22, 2007
260
0
76
Overlord sells an overclockable PCB that's a drop in for most of the Korean LG panels that allows OC'ing up to 120 Hz.
 

Teizo

Golden Member
Oct 28, 2010
1,271
31
91
I barely bother with aa anymore. It still does something at this res but is far less important than it is at 1080p

That's true. There really is not point to high AA at that res, unless maybe FXAA wich will not take a big performance hit.
 
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