16ms ghosting!!

[The Green Bean]

Ok so I bought this philips 17" 16ms flat pannel...Hasnt been long but the ghosting is very noticable. Especailly in games like CS and HL2. But theres blurring even in games like CnC generals when I scroll up and down the screen fast. I thought 16ms was GOOD!! And I was about to buy a 25ms :roll:

Anyways Im still using a VGA connector. Will it help reduce ghosting if I use DVI? Logically it shouldnt because its not the cable thats slow its the pixels!!! But ive heard people get reduced ghostong with DVI. Problem is DVI cables are pretty damn expensive where I live. $35+.... And are pretty difficult to find. Any point in switching for a 17" 5:4 aspect ratio screen?

What else sux is the lack of support for 5:4 native resolutions even in new games...Like CnC generals and even Rome:TW. It doesnt look too good!!! I would never have switched to an LCD if I didnot have space problems. Im almost regretting selling my trusty Dell P990.

 

[SynthDude2001]

DVI will probably help you a little (at least for image clarity), and you can find the cables relatively cheaply online. I would personally never run a LCD over VGA if I had the choice to use DVI.

For one thing, manufacturers are often just going to quote the lowest time they possibly can for response time, even if it only achieves 16ms for one of the hundreds of types of color changes per subpixel. So a so-called 16ms monitor may average at 25ms or worse.

With that said, I've used a Dell 2001FP quite a bit (20" 1600x1200 16ms panel), and I noticed lots of ghosting on it. My current monitor is a 2005FPW (20" 1680x1050, 12ms/16ms), and I can tell that it's better somewhat, but I'd only be kidding myself if I said it was free of ghosting. It's just one of the sacrifices you make for having a monitor that doesn't weigh 70 pounds.

(Also, some people claim to, or really don't, see ghosting on LCD monitors - but if you're sensitive like I seem to be, it's still there.)

I hope this helps a little bit.

 

[Lorn]

What is ghosting?

 

[bobsmith1492]

LCDs always ghost, especially if you have good eyes.

Ghosting happens when you can see pixels after they should have changed color already, as in when something is moving onscreen you can see a trail behind it. Try moving a white window arounnd on a black background and you'll see it.

 

[anthrax]

Guess most ppl should read this before posting about LCDs...

http://www.xbitlabs.com/articles/other/display/lcd-guide.html

 

[Spike]

For some reason I can only see ghosting in windows when I move a box around, otherwise my LCD's are "ghost-free" to my eyes. It's strange, I have sat with my 25ms Sony and my 30ms Gateway and played games specifically looking for ghosting and have never seen it.

Maybe I just don't know what to look for so I probably should not look for it, don't wanna ruin the experience

-spike

 

[imverygifted]

i used to have a philips 17" 170B5CS/27 LCD monitor. it was 16ms and didnt have any noticeable ghost, it was great for gaming then i sold it to friend and he games and loves that monitor i did buy a dvi cable from newegg.com and it was a good noticeable difference in quality from the vga cable

 

[zephyrprime]

Not until LCDs have true 4ms speeds will ghosting be gone. Current LCDs are still pretty far from this. I don't know where you got the notion that 16ms would eliminate ghosting but you were unfortunately mistaken.

 

[VIAN]

Lack of 5:4 res. WTH are you smoking. Every game... EVERY game, well, almost every game supports 1280x1024. There are a few exceptions however.

If it didn't say 16ms(typical), then your 16ms spec is worth sh|t.

Why 4ms?

 

[The Green Bean]

Originally posted by: imverygifted
i used to have a philips 17" 170B5CS/27 LCD monitor. it was 16ms and didnt have any noticeable ghost, it was great for gaming then i sold it to friend and he games and loves that monitor i did buy a dvi cable from newegg.com and it was a good noticeable difference in quality from the vga cable

I have the exact same monitor...Im getting my DVI cable today...So will check the improvement in quality. Probably my eyes are real good thats why I notice ghosting ...No glasses yet

Its not like its unplayable, but there is some noticable ghosting. Funnny thing is that I had a Compaq 40ms screen deliverd to me....That was just horrific LOL!!! I thought 16ms wouldve been a good improvement. Slightly better but there is still ghosting when I move really fast. I wouldve gone back to CRT if I had the space ....But obvisosly colours and clarity is much better than my ageing Dell..

 

[Kalisperas]

I just got my first LCD, a ViewSonic VP171b-2. It's an 8ms monitor, and contrary to all the reports I had seen about no ghosting, I actually find the ghosting pretty noticeable. I'm coming to believe that the people who say they can't see ghosting on LCD's just don't know what to look for. For anyone who's not sure, try moving a card around in Solitaire at different speeds, and watch the edges to see if they leave a slight trail against the backgrounds. In an FPS, turn at low to medium speed and watch for blurring around the edges of objects against the background or other objects. I noticed it much more on The Sims 2, whenever I'd scroll the screen everything would blur pretty bad. Like hatim said, it's subtle on faster screens, but it's a bit distracting to me. Guess I'll just have to learn to ignore it, or wait for the first batch of 1ms screens!

 

[Malak]

Originally posted by: VIAN
Lack of 5:4 res. WTH are you smoking. Every game... EVERY game, well, almost every game supports 1280x1024. There are a few exceptions however.

He was right actually. CnC Generals does not support it. Maybe it's an RTS thing though.

 

[HeroOfPellinor]

Originally posted by: Kalisperas
I just got my first LCD, a ViewSonic VP171b-2. It's an 8ms monitor, and contrary to all the reports I had seen about no ghosting, I actually find the ghosting pretty noticeable. I'm coming to believe that the people who say they can't see ghosting on LCD's just don't know what to look for. For anyone who's not sure, try moving a card around in Solitaire at different speeds, and watch the edges to see if they leave a slight trail against the backgrounds. In an FPS, turn at low to medium speed and watch for blurring around the edges of objects against the background or other objects. I noticed it much more on The Sims 2, whenever I'd scroll the screen everything would blur pretty bad. Like hatim said, it's subtle on faster screens, but it's a bit distracting to me. Guess I'll just have to learn to ignore it, or wait for the first batch of 1ms screens!

I don't understand people like you. I bet the first thing you did when you got the monitor was fire up solitaire and scowl at the ghosting. I think most posts about the VP171B have stated that ghosting is there to be seen if you're looking for it. I don't know about you, but I buy games to play them and if you do, you won't see ghosting. Heck, plug your CRT back in and look for ghosting and I bet you'll see some.

 

[Keysplayr]

Originally posted by: zephyrprime
Not until LCDs have true 4ms speeds will ghosting be gone. Current LCDs are still pretty far from this. I don't know where you got the notion that 16ms would eliminate ghosting but you were unfortunately mistaken.

He probably got his information from other forum members that even have 25ms LCD's saying, "I have absolutely NO ghosting!" When in actuality, they really do but won't admit it after paying 600+ dollars for a screen.

 

[Keysplayr]

Originally posted by: HeroOfPellinor

Originally posted by: Kalisperas
I just got my first LCD, a ViewSonic VP171b-2. It's an 8ms monitor, and contrary to all the reports I had seen about no ghosting, I actually find the ghosting pretty noticeable. I'm coming to believe that the people who say they can't see ghosting on LCD's just don't know what to look for. For anyone who's not sure, try moving a card around in Solitaire at different speeds, and watch the edges to see if they leave a slight trail against the backgrounds. In an FPS, turn at low to medium speed and watch for blurring around the edges of objects against the background or other objects. I noticed it much more on The Sims 2, whenever I'd scroll the screen everything would blur pretty bad. Like hatim said, it's subtle on faster screens, but it's a bit distracting to me. Guess I'll just have to learn to ignore it, or wait for the first batch of 1ms screens!

I don't understand people like you. I bet the first thing you did when you got the monitor was fire up solitaire and scowl at the ghosting. I think most posts about the VP171B have stated that ghosting is there to be seen if you're looking for it. I don't know about you, but I buy games to play them and if you do, you won't see ghosting. Heck, plug your CRT back in and look for ghosting and I bet you'll see some.

Then why do people bitch so much about ATI/Nvidia game optimizations that do not render items correctly but boost performance and yet unnoticable to the human eye unless disected with a mip map program. I better not ever hear you complain about optimizations that you cant see.

quote"Heck, plug your CRT back in and look for ghosting and I bet you'll see some."
Umm Maybe if your using a 16 year old monochrome terminal.

 

[HeroOfPellinor]

Originally posted by: keysplayr2003

Originally posted by: HeroOfPellinor

Originally posted by: Kalisperas
I just got my first LCD, a ViewSonic VP171b-2. It's an 8ms monitor, and contrary to all the reports I had seen about no ghosting, I actually find the ghosting pretty noticeable. I'm coming to believe that the people who say they can't see ghosting on LCD's just don't know what to look for. For anyone who's not sure, try moving a card around in Solitaire at different speeds, and watch the edges to see if they leave a slight trail against the backgrounds. In an FPS, turn at low to medium speed and watch for blurring around the edges of objects against the background or other objects. I noticed it much more on The Sims 2, whenever I'd scroll the screen everything would blur pretty bad. Like hatim said, it's subtle on faster screens, but it's a bit distracting to me. Guess I'll just have to learn to ignore it, or wait for the first batch of 1ms screens!

I don't understand people like you. I bet the first thing you did when you got the monitor was fire up solitaire and scowl at the ghosting. I think most posts about the VP171B have stated that ghosting is there to be seen if you're looking for it. I don't know about you, but I buy games to play them and if you do, you won't see ghosting. Heck, plug your CRT back in and look for ghosting and I bet you'll see some.

Then why do people bitch so much about ATI/Nvidia game optimizations that do not render items correctly but boost performance and yet unnoticable to the human eye unless disected with a mip map program. I better not ever hear you complain about optimizations that you cant see.

Think about it. There are several HUGE advantages to an LCD besides solitaire performance. He gets the perfect geometry, less eye strain, sharper pcture, lower energy usage, space-savings, less glare, monitor tilt, and less buzzing. And, to boot, you get performance pretty much on par with a CRT if, as I said, you actually play the games instead of study them. All a video card does is generate pixels, so make it do that as fast as possible is your only concern.

 

[Spike]

Well, I realized my problem, I was moving too fast to notice ghosting! When I was playing UT 2004 on this older 30ms LCD to test it I was looking and looking and could not see ghosting for the life of me. Then I moved slowly in a circle and saw blurring. I was like "ooooooh, THATS ghosting..."

Personally I am not impressed, if thats all ghosting is then I don't see the big deal. Sure it would be bad at 30ms, but I play UT all the time on my 15" 25ms LCD and don't see it at all, except when I move slowly and specifically look for it. Not a big deal to me especially when it is soooo much nicer on my eyes.

You know, I think I would trade solitare performance for nice picture quality... but thats just me!

-spike

 

[The Green Bean]

Ok so the emanual says (Response time <= 16 ms (typ.) )

So its the typical response time. I got DVI and havent noticed ANY difference whatsoever. 2M DVI-DVI...

Also wanted to ask what settings should I use for color?? 9300Ks, 6500K, or sRBG...Im a n00b to LCDs so which setting should I use. The default is 6500K...What do these numbers mean anyways?

 

[Kalisperas]

I don't understand people like you. I bet the first thing you did when you got the monitor was fire up solitaire and scowl at the ghosting. I think most posts about the VP171B have stated that ghosting is there to be seen if you're looking for it. I don't know about you, but I buy games to play them and if you do, you won't see ghosting. Heck, plug your CRT back in and look for ghosting and I bet you'll see some.

Actually, I only did the Solitaire thing as an afterthought. The truth is, I prefer the LCD over my CRT for it's various benefits, but I can definately see the ghosting during normal play. I noticed it immediately the first time I fired up HL2, which is why I did the other tests. It's worse in some games than in others as well. I barely notice it during WoW, for example, but in HL2 and Sims 2 (scrolling screen) I notice it a lot, even during normal play and not while "looking for it". I also notice it quite a bit when I move windows on the desktop or scroll window contents, but it doesn't bother me all that much. Especially considering I've been living with a dying CRT for months!

 

[gsparesa]

Originally posted by: NOLOVE
What is ghosting?

The technical term is referred to as afterglow. Basically it?s the energy that?s left when you turn an emitting source off. Radiating energy that takes on this characteristic, which is usually undesirable. CRT?s, X-Ray tubes even flash lights have afterglow.

 

[VirtualLarry]

Originally posted by: bobsmith1492
LCDs always ghost, especially if you have good eyes.

Ghosting happens when you can see pixels after they should have changed color already, as in when something is moving onscreen you can see a trail behind it. Try moving a white window arounnd on a black background and you'll see it.

Interestingly, perhaps - I used to play old 8/16-bit console games for a while, on a 12" green monochrome composite monitor, and it ghosted pretty heavily (being that monochrome screens usually have long-persistance phosphors on them). It actually improved my gaming somewhat for 2D shooters, made it slightly easier to track the bullets I think.

 

[VirtualLarry]

Originally posted by: HeroOfPellinor
I don't know about you, but I buy games to play them and if you do, you won't see ghosting. Heck, plug your CRT back in and look for ghosting and I bet you'll see some.

Ghosting? On a modern VGA color CRT with med/short-persistance phosphors? I hope you're joking.

If not, then it's simply the persistance-of-vision in your eyes, not the screen at all.

 

[BenSkywalker]

And, to boot, you get performance pretty much on par with a CRT if, as I said, you actually play the games instead of study them.

If everyone had eyes as extremely poor as you imply you do then noone would have problems with LCDs in terms of gaming. Ghosting is severe, and it is a major PITA when you are getting shot from behind and want to locate someone quickly coming out of a spin- every time. LCDs are still very slow, and have significant levels of ghosting even amongst the fastest displays.

 

[kmmatney]

There is an effect that OpenGl and DirectX have called "motion-blur". Those games would look great on an LCD!

Motion Blur

BTW - I don't notice ghosting on my 25 ms LCD... I'm lucky.

 

[ddviper]

i dont notice any ghosting on my 17in sony lcd, that is 20ms.