19" LCD's: telling which have 6 bit and 8 bit panels

[Superguy]

Hey all,

I'm pooling my birthday and Christmas money together and deciding to pop for a 19" LCD monitor.

I've been doing research and reading on here that I should avoid the 6 bit TN panels. The reason why seems obvious to me. I can tell the ones at work have the dithering which tend to show the 6 bit panels (at least as I understand anyway).

So how can I tell the difference if they don't come out and say it?

I'll give a run down of what my general expectations are, and if you have any suggestions, I'd greatly appreciate it.

Wants:

8 bit panel
Minimal ghosting in gaming
19"
DVI
Generally clear text
Minimal, or preferably no, flicker (my 17" HP LCD at work has this and I really hate it).
3 year warranty
budget around $300 ... $350 absolute max

Thanks!

Super

 

[xtknight]

Feel free and ask which monitors are TN. TNs aren't the best, but they are the most affordable. The color isn't *that* bad. I own one myself and my only minor complaint is slightly slower response time than I'd like. Colors are very vibrant, just not accurate or smooth.

No LCD should flicker unless it's backlight has 'issues'. Text will always be 100% clear unless you're talking about other-than-native resolutions. Unfortunately your budget is $60 under what I'd consider a perfect match for your needs. The Viewsonic VP930B.

http://www.newegg.com/Product/Product.asp?Item=N82E16824116365#DetailSpecs

Then there is the Viewsonic VP191B (being replaced by VP930B) which is available as low as $333 at some vendors.
http://froogle.google.com/froogle_clust...h+Froogle&lmode=&addr=&scoring=p&hl=en

Once you get under that point, you're limited to relatively crappy TNs.

Here's some tips:

Originally posted by: xtknight
Easiest way to tell if a panel is S-PVA/P-MVA with overdrive is if all these three are true. I think that covers all known VA/od panels.

6ms. or 8ms. response time
178/178 viewing angle
16.7 million colors

For TN:
2ms., 3ms., 4ms., 5ms., 8ms., 12ms. usually
160/160 viewing angle
16.2 million colors (sometimes listed as 16.7 though)

As for S-IPS, it's probably going to have an insane price so you can usually distinguish it. After you make your conjecture usually (but not always) this site is right. http://www.flatpanels.dk/panels.php

 

[aatf510]

I think you can tell it by 16.2 million colors vs. 16.7 million colors. I am not 100% positive though.

 

[xtknight]

Originally posted by: toattett
I think you can tell it by 16.2 million colors vs. 16.7 million colors. I am not 100% positive though.

Nope, not just that. Some TNs list 16.7m.

You can tell an 8-bit S-PVA by generally this criteria:

6ms. or 8ms. response time
178/178 viewing angle
16.7 million colors

8-bit S-IPSs will be very expensive.

 

[wpeng]

Unless you're talking about Dell. The 2005fpw is very cheap for an S-IPS monitor.

 

[Superguy]

Thanks.

A couple of my preliminary ones were these:

Samsung 940b: http://www.newegg.com/Product/Product.asp?Item=N82E16824001066
Viewsonic VA1912 (or VA912)

I haven't decided either way about widescreen ... never really even seen one up close other than in a laptop.

If the VP930b is really worth the extra money, I'll consider it.

Do you think prices will drop any after Christmas?

Thanks,

Super

 

[xtknight]

Originally posted by: wpeng
Unless you're talking about Dell. The 2005fpw is very cheap for an S-IPS monitor.

They're not exactly cheap at $500, but relatively. The HP L2035 is the closest I've found which is still $100 more.

 

[xtknight]

Originally posted by: Superguy
Samsung 940b: http://www.newegg.com/Product/Product.asp?Item=N82E16824001066
Viewsonic VA1912 (or VA912)

I haven't decided either way about widescreen ... never really even seen one up close other than in a laptop.

Sorry, both of those are 6-bit TNs.

If the VP930b is really worth the extra money, I'll consider it.

It certainly is.

 

[Nextman916]

The VA912b is a suprisingly good monitor i saw it in person on friday, I thought it looked awkward in pics but its pretty attractive in real life. The VP930B would probably be a better buy especially because it can be found around $410 shipped nowadays. It may drop a little by christmas but i doubt anything huge.

 

[Spacecomber]

I'm not aware of any low response time IPS panels in the 19" range. The only 19" IPS panel I've seen is the LG L1930B, which is a 25ms response time panel. Keep in mind that 25ms IPS panel is equivalent to a somewhat lower response time TN panel, because the response times for an IPS panel across all the different changes in shade are relatively similar, while a TN (and especially a MVA/PVA) panel will show slower response times as the color changes become smaller.

I can't recommend this monitor to someone looking for minimal ghosting, but it is a decent all-purpose monitor, selling for around $300. It's main advantages are it's excellent viewing angles and true colors. It's weaknesses are a tendency towards slight ghosting with moving images and a mediocre contrast ratio. In other words, it has trouble rendering the darkest shades of black and the lightest shades of white, while maintaining a deep black and a bright white, under the same brightness and contrast settings.

The low response time TN panels are probably the a reasonable alternative for some one looking for a 19" gaming monitor. They sacrifice viewing angles and 8-bit color for a ghost free moving image.

Since there are no low response time 19" IPS panels and regular PVA/MVA panels are very prone to ghosting with moving images, the only alternative to a 19" TN panel will be the PVA/MVA panels using overdrive circuitry to try to speed up response times. Although this approach does have its drawbacks for people who watch movies on their monitors, it seems to be the best alternative in the 19" size monitor for someone wanting minimal ghosting, wide viewing angles, high contrast, and 8-bit color.

You can usually recognize these monitors using low overdrive circuitry by their prominent advertising low grey-to-grey response times. (Viewsonic also has a TN panel with overdrive circuitry, so don't confuse this with the MVA/PVA overdrive LCDs.)

You'll have to move up to a 20" or bigger panel if you want a low response time IPS panel. A low response time IPS continues to be the best all around LCD. It may not excel in specifications like response times and contrast, but it is "good enough", and it makes up for this by also having excellent viewing angles and very true color reproduction. Since these monitors don't use overdrive circuitry, they don't have the resulting artifacts, either.

 

[xtknight]

Originally posted by: Spacecomber
I'm not aware of any low response time IPS panels in the 19" range.

Lowest I've seen is 18ms. S-IPS. This is a good site for checking panel types:
http://www.flatpanels.dk/panels.php

Just type in S-IPS.
NEC LCD1980FXi-BK has a 19 inch 18 ms S-IPS (LG.Philips LM190E05-SL02) panel.
In fact I haven't seen anything 8 ms. g2g until you get to 26".

The low response time TN panels are probably the a reasonable alternative for some one looking for a 19" gaming monitor. They sacrifice viewing angles and 8-bit color for a ghost free moving image.

I agree.

Since there are no low response time 19" IPS panels and regular PVA/MVA panels are very prone to ghosting with moving images, the only alternative to a 19" TN panel will be the PVA/MVA panels using overdrive circuitry to try to speed up response times. Although this approach does have its drawbacks for people who watch movies on their monitors, it seems to be the best alternative in the 19" size monitor for someone wanting minimal ghosting, wide viewing angles, high contrast, and 8-bit color.

Not sure what you mean by drawbacks in watching movies. If you mean noise, if the overdrive is properly done (and it's absolutely possible) then there will be no overshoot at all, meaning only 0->255 is overshot, then from there it goes down to the correct color. That's the safest approach and I think it gives good results. Tom's Hardware Guide's new LCD tests take this problem into account. They rated the VP930B an A in this category (0 to 0.5 frame). They go as far as to say the overshoot was INVISIBLE on the oscilloscope. http://graphics.tomshardware.com/displa...7/viewsonic_vp930b_lcd_monitor-04.html That means...no noise!

You'll have to move up to a 20" or bigger panel if you want a low response time IPS panel. A low response time IPS continues to be the best all around LCD. It may not excel in specifications like response times and contrast, but it is "good enough", and it makes up for this by also having excellent viewing angles and very true color reproduction. Since these monitors don't use overdrive circuitry, they don't have the resulting artifacts, either.

They very well could use the overdrive, and I hope they implement a properely-calibrated one that won't overshoot. Then only we will win in the end. S-IPS have the best viewing angles at the expense of the worst contrast (in contrast to S-PVA and TN, forgive the pun). They also give the warmest, most accurate CRT-like color. For this reason, most of Eizo's ColorEdge monitors use S-IPS panels.

 

[Spacecomber]

The artifacts while watching movies on a monitor using overdrive circuitry that I refered to are the "sparkles" that occassionally are observed. Perhaps the vp930b will be free of these, based on the lab testing done by Tom's, but it would be nice if they actually watched a movie using it and reported the results. I read their reviews and always come away feeling like they never finished writing them.

 

[xtknight]

Originally posted by: Spacecomber
The artifacts while watching movies on a monitor using overdrive circuitry that I refered to are the "sparkles" that occassionally are observed. Perhaps the vp930b will be free of these, based on the lab testing done by Tom's, but it would be nice if they actually watched a movie using it and reported the results. I read their reviews and always come away feeling like they never finished writing them.

Well I think (hope) they know what they're doing. Oscilloscopes are invaluable and infallible for testing stuff like this IF you know how to use AND intrepret them. I can only assume they do as they seem confident about it. BeHardware does subjective tests (actually watching) I believe.

 

[Superguy]

Thanks for the info. That's good to know.

I definitely want to avoid the 6 bit screens. I've noticed on some of the LCDs at work (cheapos obviously) that you can see the "blocky" textures where dithering was happening. That always bugged me and was one of the things putting me off from getting an LCD.

If the 8 bit ones don't have this, then I think it will be worth the extra money. I'll have this monitor for quite awhile, so I'm probably better off ponying up a little extra now.

To everybody, what are your thoughts about "normal" LCDs vs. widescreen ones? Can most games work in widescreen, or will the games look stretched out, or will there be the "black bars" on the sides of the screen?

Are there any other comparable models to the VP930B (and in the same price range) that would be worth considering?

Thanks all for helping an LCD noob!

Super

 

[xtknight]

Hmm well I myself have a 6-bit LCD and it's far from crap and I haven't noticed much blockiness anywhere. Maybe those "cheapo" LCDs have bad dithering? I think mine has frame rate control instead of dithering so that'll prevent the blockiness I think. The Samsung 193P+ and 970P are comparable to the VP930B but not in the same price range.

 

[Eureka]

What exactly does TN stand for anyway?

Norm

 

[xtknight]

Originally posted by: cevilgenius
What exactly does TN stand for anyway?

Norm

Twisted Nematic, a type of liquid crystal. Usually the term TN also encompasses the use of the now-obligatory film to improve viewing angles.

 

[Superguy]

Maybe so. Our outsourced IT sucks rocks, so it wouldn't surprise me that they give us crap.

What do you think about these models?

Samsung Syncmaster 930B
Samsung Syncmaster 910MP (with TV Tuner)

 

[xtknight]

Those are TN 6-bit but they should be fine. They'll have minimal ghosting. The Samsung 910MP may be a little bright and too high of a black level and the Samsung 930B is also an extremely bright monitor according to this forum. I say either go with the Viewsonic VP930B or Samsung 940B. The VP930B is the only one that matches your needs though, but it is worth the extra dough.

 

[Superguy]

Cool.

I'll probably go with the VP930B then, unless something stellar in the same range pops up.

ZZF has it for $410 with free 2 day shipping. Maybe I'll order it today so I have it for a LAN party on Friday. Either that or I'm lugging my 17" Trinitron to my friend's.

 

[Compellor]

Originally posted by: Superguy
Cool.

I'll probably go with the VP930B then, unless something stellar in the same range pops up.

ZZF has it for $410 with free 2 day shipping. Maybe I'll order it today so I have it for a LAN party on Friday. Either that or I'm lugging my 17" Trinitron to my friend's.

You won't regret it. That's where I bought my VP930b and it's perfect for gaming and everything else. No ghosting at all, and the color and black level are both top-notch.

 

[Superguy]

Anyone know what ZZF's policy is for dead pixels? Can't find it online, and it's difficult to get a hold of them.

 

[Nextman916]

Newegg did have a sale for $409 shipped lol!!! 1 dollah!!!!

 

[Compellor]

Originally posted by: Superguy
Anyone know what ZZF's policy is for dead pixels? Can't find it online, and it's difficult to get a hold of them.

2 dead pixel policy. It's better than Newegg's. The only problem with using them is that they will charge a 15%restocking fee if you send it back for an exchange or refund. Their order processing is rather slow as well. I only bought mine from them because they use free 2-day FedEx delivery and they had the lowest price. I ordered it on a Monday and got it that Thursday.

 

[josh609]

I got this. I love it, looks wonderful!

http://www.newegg.com/Product/Product.asp?Item=N82E16824116373

Great monitor, very bright picture. No Ghosting in games or movies at all.

Here are some pictures of it:

http://i34.photobucket.com/albums/d110/josh_1413/JoshsSetup2.jpg

http://i34.photobucket.com/albums/d110/josh_1413/JoshsSetup1.jpg