19 Year Old Girl Shot Looking for Help

[Aegeon]

What is so unusual about my post? It's very real and has happened plenty of times previously. In fact I can just about guarantee you it will happen again somewhere in the US with a week that's how frequent it is. Happens all the time really, that's why it's a very bad idea to do so because of the likely and possible outcome.

Banging on somebody's door at 3 in the morning is ASKING, begging, to get shot.

You are simply apparently a menace to society who has repeatedly advocated murder in this thread.

The law clearly requires real evidence of an intent to break in (or something like believing the other person has drawn a gun and is about to shoot) and without that intentionally shooting the person is flat out murder. (An effort merely to turn a doorknob or simply pull on the handle with a locked door definitely does not count in such a situation.)

While there have been a variety of circumstances where someone banging on a door late at night has been shot, without real evidence of the person making an effort to break in, those situations almost always end up with the shooter ending up convicted of a crime.

It should be noted that in this instance the shooter further damaged his case by quickly concluding the 911 call and hanging up. This tends to suggest that he either was clearly indifferent to the other person's life which his tone also possibly conveyed (and didn't take the steps to make sure the police and an ambulance arrived promptly to the right address by not even providing his city) or was not ever truly concerned about his safety in the first place if he was not sure if he hit the target with his shot.

(I'm not claiming banging on a door at 3:00 is generally a good idea, but that doesn't by itself give others a license to shoot you.)

 

[SpatiallyAware]

To get them to open the door so you can bum rush in. It's a very typical ploy in home invasions.

Another very typical one is where they use a female pretending to ask for help while those waiting to barge in are out of site. Once the door opens, they all barge in.

And if you defend yourself their parents shriek for their 15 minutes of fame about how "their baby didn't do nuthin" and try to racially railroad the poor homeowner who defended themselves.

 

[werepossum]

In every one of those incidents, the shooter called 911, grabbed a gun and waited until the perps broke in.... which is exactly what I would do. It is by far the safest option.

To not call 911 shows a lack of common sense. To open the door shows a lack of common sense (if you are afraid of intruders, why open the damn door and surrender your advantage?). To open the door and fire shows a rather stark disregard for human life.

Well said. Personally I have no problem with hiding inside, or with opening the door to confront. But if it's the latter, the homeowner absolutely has a responsibility to control his weapon. There is some level of reasonable threat, but that did not exist until he voluntarily opened the door.

Well we disagree there.

3am, banging on the door of a strange house, and then turning the knob when the person won't let you in? That's a great way to get dead.

I'd be willing to bet that most of us have experienced drunk and/or irate people attempting to enter our homes, although hopefully mostly in our apartment-dwelling days. I've known many people who have had that experience; I've known zero who either committed violence or had violence committed on them. Granted, the bum rush home invasion (and carjacking) has become somewhat common, but if one fears that, just don't open the door.

The difference is that this time; he may not have felt threatened enough to fear opening the door. And coming from Detroit; for many it is felt that response times for the law at 3AM is measured in hours, not minutes.

We do NOT know what triggered the trigger pull

Does it really matter how long the response if he's inside and the suspected burglar is outside?

 

[werepossum]

I think the family statements were well before the 911 call was linked.
They included details that were not in the 911 calls and were false.

Family's lying their asses off trying to drum up support to imprison the man who shot their daughter. From a purely theoretical standpoint it's deplorable, but in the real world it's not unexpected. I have some sympathy for them - not only did they lose their beloved daughter, but their own actions enabled the behavior that led to her losing her life. They want revenge, but also validation that it's someone else's fault. And the natural fear in these cases, especially for blacks, is that the law will not prosecute, taking the view (at least tacitly if no longer openly) that a black person is inherently a threat.

Um because I didn't take a photo of the house where a shooting took place when I drove by nor did I have a link to the front of the house like you did. Why do you continue to act obtuse is a better question.

EDIT: Why so seemingly baffled by how she could have banged on his storm door without depressing a screen? I don't think he ever claimed she was banging though his screen and pounding on the inner door and even if she had I don't see how that would change a thing considering he was still behind in his words two sets of locked doors that he, himself had to open to have a meaningful face to face confrontation with the young lady. I will drive by on my way home later this week and try to take a higher res photo of the house and storm door... the one you linked doesn't really show much storm door detail. It's more than ample to pound on the side you grab the handle. I don't think anyone is living there right now so I should be able to drive right up and roll down the passenger and take a 'good shoot'. Based on what I saw when I drove by and what I see in the photo you linked this is a pretty good example of door and how you can bang right where you grab the handle. This is one of our old rental houses is Dbn Hts:

https://scontent-a-lga.xx.fbcdn.net/hphotos-ash3/1012770_597557460280144_288673416_n.jpg

Makes perfect sense if in her drunken stupor she believed she was home or at a friend's and her intent was not to do damage or force entry, but to attract enough attention that someone would get up and let her drunk ass in before the cops showed up.

 

[Geosurface]

Yep, he should have called out "who's there? what do you want? I'm calling 911 and I have a gun!" and if she responded "I was in an accident, I need help" he could've responded "great, go sit on the curb and wait for the police to show up, I'll tell them to send an ambulance too. Now get the the fuck away from the door"

There was no reason to open the door and then blast her with a shotgun. It's fairly unjustifiable... though I do anxiously await hearing his explanation.

I'm not without sympathy for the guy, though. The baffling nature of what he did and how he was on his 911 call, and how stunned he looked in court, all seem consistent with it being an accidental shooting. Even if "accident" here means "I reflexively pulled the trigger as she made a sudden move" rather than "I pulled the trigger without meaning to" and there's the other possibility I mentioned earlier in the thread... accidental trigger pull while trying to open the door with one arm, and keep the shotgun steady with the other... starts to slip, pulls the trigger accidentally in a reflexive action of trying to hold it steady.

Prison time is warranted, though not a great deal of it IMO.

Those who confidently assert their right to do what he did, never forget that being right about the law isn't the only consideration... there are emotional families pushing for charges, there are emotional jurors who may not like you or your attitude... so even if you are right, which I think is debatable in the absence of clear evidence of an attempt at forced entry... but even if, your own freedom should matter enough to you that you would do something like previously discussed "Get away from the door, I have a gun" etc.

 

[classy]

Londo_Jowo, apologies, but perhaps you can see the attitude I'm reading in this topic which is driving me insane. It goes beyond outrage to read that post I just quoted.

I cannot wrap my head around the morality of murder as is being advocated by some members. I apologize for lumping you in with them. I am not remaining calm over this, I cannot remain calm. Their sense of morality is so foreign to me... there's nothing rationale to discuss between me and them.

I don't know if I can shake it to discuss this topic further.

This is nothing, lol. One day just go back and read some the stuff posted here around 2000-2002. I don't think its a stretch to say that quite a few times there is very little difference in the stuff posted here than what you would read on stormfront. And spidey has been tooting the kill tune for as long as I can remember.

 

[umbrella39]

Family's lying their asses off trying to drum up support to imprison the man who shot their daughter. From a purely theoretical standpoint it's deplorable, but in the real world it's not unexpected. I have some sympathy for them - not only did they lose their beloved daughter, but their own actions enabled the behavior that led to her losing her life. They want revenge, but also validation that it's someone else's fault. And the natural fear in these cases, especially for blacks, is that the law will not prosecute, taking the view (at least tacitly if no longer openly) that a black person is inherently a threat.


Makes perfect sense if in her drunken stupor she believed she was home or at a friend's and her intent was not to do damage or force entry, but to attract enough attention that someone would get up and let her drunk ass in before the cops showed up.

Agreed. She might have even drank more after the accident and got even more messed up. Her BAL was pretty damn high. I think she was too blitzed to know exactly where the hell she was and the homeowner made a tragic mistake if it went down the way his own statements would indicate.

 

[HumblePie]

Agreed. She might have even drank more after the accident and got even more messed up. Her BAL was pretty damn high. I think she was too blitzed to know exactly where the hell she was and the homeowner made a tragic mistake if it went down the way his own statements would indicate.

Yep. Sad situation all the way around. Even more so my the despicable media coverage initially.

 

[Londo_Jowo]

Londo_Jowo, apologies, but perhaps you can see the attitude I'm reading in this topic which is driving me insane. It goes beyond outrage to read that post I just quoted.

I cannot wrap my head around the morality of murder as is being advocated by some members. I apologize for lumping you in with them. I am not remaining calm over this, I cannot remain calm. Their sense of morality is so foreign to me... there's nothing rationale to discuss between me and them.

I don't know if I can shake it to discuss this topic further.

I understand where you're coming from in this case/incident. Before I can condemn this guy I need much more information.

As for spidey and spaciallyaware, just ignore all their macho driven drivel.

 

[Geosurface]

...the attitude I'm reading in this topic which is driving me insane. It goes beyond outrage to read that post I just quoted.

I am not remaining calm over this, I cannot remain calm.

I don't know if I can shake it to discuss this topic further.

Dude, you're in serious danger of losing your man card here. Buck up.

Don't you realize that a huge percentage of this sort of thing is people thinking in a "red team vs. blue team" way about these issues? A lot of people simply entrench.

"I can't give an inch to the gun grabbers/gun nuts, because they are the enemy, rawr!!!!"

There's a lot of devil's advocate playing. There's a lot of halfway trolling. There's a lot of "my team right or wrong." There's a lot of "I'm on the internet using a fake name, so I'll amp up my actual views on this to level 10 when they're actually level 6, because it will make for a more lively discussion and get me more attention and replies" etc etc etc...

And some people frankly just pass through phases where they're sort of extremist about stuff. Catch them at another time, or approach the topic differently, they might sound much more reasonable.

A specific case can become emblematic of a larger issue for people. Like Trayvon, for instance, a lot of black people wouldn't back down on their "innocent child with Skittles executed for no reason" meme even when the evidence of it being completely counter-factual was overwhelming. Why? Because it wasn't about Trayvon it was about a history of racial injustice, both real and perceived... it was about reacting to a feeling of "our lives are treated like they don't matter, and yea maybe it's usually other blacks shooting us... but we have the media's attention and let's use it" etc etc.

I myself was spending a lot of this thread entrenching and being "red team vs. blue team" about it, and when I took a step back I realized, y'know what, barring some very compelling info coming out... this shooting was really unjustifiable. You can't blow someone's head off for loudly knocking on your door, at any hour.

Don't take this shit so seriously.

 

[spidey07]

You absolutely can blow their head off if they attempt to enter the premise and/or cross the threshold.

You don't have to wait for them to enter.

 

[Svnla]

Before I can condemn this guy I need much more information.

I feel the same. Will withhold my judgement for further evidences at the trial. One thing for me is that she was outside and no evidence of any door or window was being broken (from what we saw "so far") = things are not looking good for him if I was a member of the jury unless new evidences surface.

If I was him, I would get my gun, call 911 and stay with the operator, watch my door and window, wait for the cops to show up.

 

[classy]

You absolutely can blow their head off if they attempt to enter the premise and/or cross the threshold.

You don't have to wait for them to enter.

Seriously, are these type of posts necessary? We get it. You are Jason Bourne, Ethan Hunt, Dirty Harry, etc. Baddest man on............................a forum board. Never seen a threat you could not neutralize from your keyboard.

We get it dude.....................we get it

LOL

 

[werepossum]

Dude, you're in serious danger of losing your man card here. Buck up.

Don't you realize that a huge percentage of this sort of thing is people thinking in a "red team vs. blue team" way about these issues? A lot of people simply entrench.

"I can't give an inch to the gun grabbers/gun nuts, because they are the enemy, rawr!!!!"

There's a lot of devil's advocate playing. There's a lot of halfway trolling. There's a lot of "my team right or wrong." There's a lot of "I'm on the internet using a fake name, so I'll amp up my actual views on this to level 10 when they're actually level 6, because it will make for a more lively discussion and get me more attention and replies" etc etc etc...

And some people frankly just pass through phases where they're sort of extremist about stuff. Catch them at another time, or approach the topic differently, they might sound much more reasonable.

A specific case can become emblematic of a larger issue for people. Like Trayvon, for instance, a lot of black people wouldn't back down on their "innocent child with Skittles executed for no reason" meme even when the evidence of it being completely counter-factual was overwhelming. Why? Because it wasn't about Trayvon it was about a history of racial injustice, both real and perceived... it was about reacting to a feeling of "our lives are treated like they don't matter, and yea maybe it's usually other blacks shooting us... but we have the media's attention and let's use it" etc etc.

I myself was spending a lot of this thread entrenching and being "red team vs. blue team" about it, and when I took a step back I realized, y'know what, barring some very compelling info coming out... this shooting was really unjustifiable. You can't blow someone's head off for loudly knocking on your door, at any hour.

Don't take this shit so seriously.

I believe that Jaskalas is tending more toward rage than fainting, and rage is very manly. (Just turn to page 96 in Mr. Manly's Manly Manual.) However, this is a very good post, spot-on.

 

[spidey07]

Seriously, are these type of posts necessary? We get it. You are Jason Bourne, Ethan Hunt, Dirty Harry, etc. Baddest man on............................a forum board. Never seen a threat you could not neutralize from your keyboard.

We get it dude.....................we get it

LOL

I am trying to explain castle doctrine to inform everybody on when it's a good shoot or not.

This can help folks from getting dead and also squash all the nonsense of "you can't shoot somebody through the door! That's murder!" It's not murder, it's justifiable homocide if they are trying to enter the home.

 

[werepossum]

I am trying to explain castle doctrine to inform everybody on when it's a good shoot or not.

This can help folks from getting dead and also squash all the nonsense of "you can't shoot somebody through the door! That's murder!" It's not murder, it's justifiable homocide if they are trying to enter the home.

Would you honestly not feel bad if you killed a drunk nineteen year old girl who was trying to open your door at 3AM? No burglary tools, no weapons, just a double snoot full of liquor?

 

[classy]

I am trying to explain castle doctrine to inform everybody on when it's a good shoot or not.

This can help folks from getting dead and also squash all the nonsense of "you can't shoot somebody through the door! That's murder!" It's not murder, it's justifiable homocide if they are trying to enter the home.

You are not trying to explain anything. You know what is really sad, you actually know your stuff when it comes to laws concerning weapons. But you are just so damn racist, blinded completely with racial hatred, you can't even have a sensible conversation. Every black is a thug, kill Obama, and all the other nonsense. All your posts are just meant to be inflammatory, you will lie, make stuff up. And why? Just because you are prejudice. She was never going to win a Pulitzer prize, but at 19 she was just like the other 10's of millions of other 19 year olds.

Nothing this girl did warranted her or rose to the level for this man to shoot her in the face. And it doesn't take a black person to realize that in this case, just a human being. The punishment if that is what you want to call it, certainly didn't fit the crime. As much as I just despise you, in no way shape or form would I wish you, any of your friends, or family even in the exact same situation be killed senselessly like this. This man was reckless and should go to jail for it.

 

[bshole]

In Spidey's twisted little world, this woman should have been shot outside the door by the homeowners. All his prerequisites are met, she's screaming and pounding on the door.... trying to get in the house. Lock and load boys!!! We gotta a new target!!

A couple called 911 on Monday after a woman who claimed to be a rape victim showed up on their doorstep.

"There is a girl on my door screaming and crying she has been raped. I will not let her in. She's banging on my door, but she is screaming and crying she's been raped," the caller said.

The woman said Juan Vera Soledad followed her at the Citgo Gas Station on Woodland Boulevard, forced her into his car at knifepoint and then raped her.
In the 911 call, the couple explained why they didn't want to open the door.
"She is right in front of my door. She's nude. She is nude, and we are dying to give her a blanket, but we just can't. We are waiting for someone else to come," the caller said. "I'm afraid to open the door."

Deputies said the couple did the right thing by waiting for officials before opening their door.

http://www.wesh.com/news/central-fl...ped/-/12983450/20929566/-/b493lw/-/index.html

See the consistency here in all these stories, the owners never open the door and they always call 911. The two things that the shooter in Michigan did not do.

Like EagleKeeper said, you don't open the door if you are afraid. I don't think he opened the door out of fear, I believe he opened the door because he wanted to shoot her. It's the only explanation that makes sense.

 

[spidey07]

He opened the door to see who it was.

It's when she attempted to enter he was forced to fire in self defense of his home. Yeah, it's tragic. I get that.

But it's her actions that caused this.

 

[Geosurface]

You had me until:

I believe he opened the door because he wanted to shoot her. It's the only explanation that makes sense.

c'mon man... come the hell on.

You were actually making a really good point with the comparison to that case, until that line.

You really believe he "wanted to shoot her" ? Any evidence he knew it was one person? Knew it was a female? Knew anything other than that there was someone, or multiple someones out there loudly expressing a desire to get in?

I believe his fear was real. I believe how he acted upon it was not right, and merits punishment. I have no trouble believing it was an "accident" in some sense, whether an accidental trigger pull, or a reflexive, fear-based shot.

 

[HumblePie]

I am trying to explain castle doctrine to inform everybody on when it's a good shoot or not.

This can help folks from getting dead and also squash all the nonsense of "you can't shoot somebody through the door! That's murder!" It's not murder, it's justifiable homocide if they are trying to enter the home.

There are several problems with your approach to telling people here.

First off, hindsight is 20/20. People are looking at this case after it happens. People have a hard time with empathy when you think about it in putting themselves in someone else's shoes at the time. Not that people can't imagine themselves in the same scenario. That is problem number 2. People can imagine themselves in the same scenario, either as the girl or the homeowner, but put their OWN perspective into the mix. They aren't actually empathizing with either person, but projecting what they feel, interpret, and personal views into that scenario.

Many people also just can't imagine killing anyone for anything. Quite a few people literally are sheep. They can't imagine raising their hand for violence even the defense of their lives or the lives of their loved ones. Those people are always going to disagree with any scenario that has someone killing another. Despite what the laws state.

The last problem with how you are posting in this thread, is the lack of evidence even backing up your claim. Yes the law states that homicide is justified when attempting to stop someone from breaking and entering.

The argument right now, for those that are sane and logical at this point, is trying to decide if there was an attempt by the girl to enter them home, or if her actions could be perceived by a reasonable person at the time by the homeowner as an attempt. Right now, we can only go off very little circumstantial evidence and to a degree personal experience.

We don't know if the girl was actually attempting to enter the home at any point or if she was making an action that could be interpreted by a reasonable person to be doing so. There is evidence both for and against. The biggest point of evidence against is the fact the homeowner claims the shot was in accident. If the shot was truly in accident, and that he never thought she was attempting to illegally gain entry into his home; then it is not a justified shooting.

However, many of us have either been in this situation or know someone that has. From one perspective or another. I've been drunk and knocked on the wrong door at the wrong time. Luckily I'm still here although what I did was really just knocking. I know that some people when they get drunk get very loud, boisterous, and angry. They will act in a very threatening manner at an instant. So the fact we know the girl was drug addled out of her mind lends enough circumstantial evidence to the theory she was either attempting to illegally gain entry or threatening the homeowner in some way. The homeowner, while stating the shot was accidental, also states she was attempting illegal entry to his home. The shot being accidental doesn't matter in the event of her actually attempting illegal entry.

So at this point all we have on this board is pure conjecture. There may never been enough evidence to show one way or another. In which case, the man will go free if there isn't enough evidence to prove guilt even if the scenario was manslaughter. Which sucks if that does happen to be the case.

Still, the moral of the story is DON'T DRINK AND DRIVE!!!!!

 

[EagleKeeper]

In Spidey's twisted little world, this woman should have been shot outside the door by the homeowners. All his prerequisites are met, she's screaming and pounding on the door.... trying to get in the house. Lock and load boys!!! We gotta a new target!!



http://www.wesh.com/news/central-fl...ped/-/12983450/20929566/-/b493lw/-/index.html

See the consistency here in all these stories, the owners never open the door and they always call 911. The two things that the shooter in Michigan did not do.

Like EagleKeeper said, you don't open the door if you are afraid. I don't think he opened the door out of fear, I believe he opened the door because he wanted to shoot her. It's the only explanation that makes sense.

I bolded where you are being just as deranged as those whom you are opposing

 

[tgferg67]

I see no doorbell so one would have to knock or bang on the door.

 

[Geosurface]

Keep in mind the screen door he shot through may have been taken away, replaced, put into evidence, all of the above, whatever.

We certainly don't see any door with signs of having had a shotgun blast go through it.

 

[Londo_Jowo]

The house photos look like they came from google street view.