19 Year Old Girl Shot Looking for Help

[RampantAndroid]

I guess you're not from around these parts.

Reread it again. When you're done, read it again.

We went over this exact same scenario, spent significant time on it. Had my county's sherrif and DA go over it.

Dont do this in Kentucky. You'll get shot.

Good god you're thick headed.

503.50 The use of deadly physical force by a defendant upon another person is
justifiable under subsection (1) only when the defendant believes that such
force is necessary to protect himself against death, serious physical injury,
kidnapping, sexual intercourse compelled by force or threat, felony involving
the use of force, or under those circumstances permitted pursuant to KRS
503.055.

They define that fear of death or injury in everything I've quoted above.

And again, THIS SAYS THEY ENTER BY FORCE:

503.055bUse of defensive force regarding dwelling, residence, or occupied
vehicle -- Exceptions.
(1) A person is presumed to have held a reasonable fear of imminent peril of death
or great bodily harm to himself or herself or another when using defensive
force that is intended or likely to cause death or great bodily harm to another if:
(a) The person against whom the defensive force was used was in the
process of unlawfully and forcibly entering or had unlawfully and forcibly
entered a dwelling, residence, or occupied vehicle, or if that person had
removed or was attempting to remove another against that person's will
from the dwelling, residence, or occupied vehicle; and
(b) The person who uses defensive force knew or had reason to believe that
an unlawful and forcible entry or unlawful and forcible act was occurring
or had occurred.

503.080
(2) The use of deadly physical force by a defendant upon another person is
justifiable under subsection (1) only when the defendant believes that the
person against whom such force is used is:
(a) Attempting to dispossess him of his dwelling otherwise than under a claim
of right to its possession; or
(b) Committing or attempting to commit a burglary, robbery, or other felony
involving the use of force, or under those circumstances permitted
pursuant to KRS 503.055, of such dwelling; or
(c) Committing or attem

Here's the reason for confusion: the law permits PHYSICAL FORCE but not DEADLY FORCE when dealing with criminal tresspass:

(1) The use of physical force by a defendant upon another person is justifiable
when the defendant believes that such force is immediately necessary to
prevent:
(a) The commission of criminal trespass, robbery, burglary, or other felony
involving the use of force, or under those circumstances permitted
pursuant to KRS 503.055, in a dwelling, building or upon real property in
his possession or in the possession of another person for whose
protection he acts; or
(b) Theft, criminal mischief, or any trespassory taking of tangible, movable
property in his possession or in the possession of another person for
whose protection he acts.

Now shut the hell up and admit you're wrong. In walking through an unlocked door and NOT threatening you, I have defined criminal trespass, and as such a scenario where you can only use PHYSICAL force, but not DEADLY force.

http://www.lrc.ky.gov/statutes/chapter.aspx?id=39367

Learn your own states laws, numbskull.

 

[spidey07]

You're not from around these parts I see.

 

[RampantAndroid]

You're not from around these parts I see.

I'll take that as the closest you can come to realizing you're wrong.

 

[Exophase]

We don't take kindly to them late night knockers round these parts.

 

[Emos]

I'll take that as the closest you can come to realizing you're wrong.

The guy has some kind of justiceporn fetish going on, I honestly believe that he is eagerly waiting for the slightest opportunity to murder someone. "they will get theirs, oh yes they will".

 

[HumblePie]

Rampant,

Opening an unlocked door is breaking and entering if the door is to a house that is not yours. A door does not have to be locked to be considered a reasonable assumption to a person that they are not allowed to enter.

Criminal trespass would be just stepping on to grounds, like the yard, where you know you aren't suppose to be there, but there is not actual physical barrier there of any sort keeping you out. Even an unlocked door or gate is a physical barrier. Another form of criminal trespass is if I invite you into my home, and then for some reason you piss me off and I ask you to leave. If you refuse, then you are committing criminal trespass but are not committing the felony of breaking and entering. I can use physical force to remove you, but I can't shoot you unless you do something like use force back against me as I try to remove you from my house.

See how that works?

If the woman was attempting to open the door, or had opened the door, technically she has forcibly tried to enter the house.

And for those that don't realize that breaking part of breaking and entry does not mean actually breaking and object to gain entry. It means to break the plane of what would be a natural barrier of an area you aren't suppose to be. Such as stepping over a threshold of a door. You are breaking the plane of entrance to a domicile if you step over that threshold. Does not matter if the door is unlocked if you are not allowed to be there.

 

[echo4747]

Does anyone know how much, if any, this guy spoke to police before he got a lawyer. If he didn't say much. I think it may be very hard to find him guilty of murder beyond a reasonable doubt.

 

[SpatiallyAware]

Does anyone know how much, if any, this guy spoke to police before he got a lawyer. If he didn't say much. I think it may be very hard to find him guilty of murder beyond a reasonable doubt.

Sounds to me like he was smart and kept his mouth shut.

And you're right, if he handled things properly it will be pretty much impossible to get an outright murder charge to stick.

 

[Zargon]

its kind of a shame this guy will go to jail for killing such a menace

kind of.


it could have just as easily been a non-waste of space he blew a hole in.

 

[2timer]

its kind of a shame this guy will go to jail for killing such a menace

kind of.


it could have just as easily been a non-waste of space he blew a hole in.

How stupid can you possibly be? We all hate drunk drivers, does that mean it's ok to blow their heads off? ()

 

[ElFenix]

What if he opened the door and she attempted to enter via the storm door?

Because that would be home invasion which means good shoot. Especially after all the banging on the door for an extended period of time.

he had to reasonably and honestly believe that she was invading his home. if he has just opened the door i don't think you can say he reasonably and honestly believed that.

not only that, it only creates a rebuttable presumption! the law is far from iron clad that if someone is banging on your door at 3 am you can shoot them.

(1) Except as provided in subsection (2), it is a rebuttable presumption in a civil or criminal case that an individual who uses deadly force or force other than deadly force under section 2 of the self-defense act has an honest and reasonable belief that imminent death of, sexual assault of, or great bodily harm to himself or herself or another individual will occur if both of the following apply:

(a) The individual against whom deadly force or force other than deadly force is used is in the process of breaking and entering a dwelling or business premises or committing home invasion or has broken and entered a dwelling or business premises or committed home invasion and is still present in the dwelling or business premises, or is unlawfully attempting to remove another individual from a dwelling, business premises, or occupied vehicle against his or her will.

(b) The individual using deadly force or force other than deadly force honestly and reasonably believes that the individual is engaging in conduct described in subdivision

Negative. No fear of life is required if an intruder is attempting to cross the threshold. This is the very foundation of castle doctrine.

again, no, it's not. the foundation of castle doctrine is that the common law duty to retreat from threats is waived for a man in his castle.

 

[RampantAndroid]

Rampant,

Opening an unlocked door is breaking and entering if the door is to a house that is not yours. A door does not have to be locked to be considered a reasonable assumption to a person that they are not allowed to enter.

Actually, it does. Opening an unlocked door does not require force. It's really that simple. Criminal trespass in his state means being somewhere you know you shouldn't be. For it to become something higher, force has to enter the equation. I suggest you actually look this up, there are actual case studies where open or unlocked doors being passed through did not present enough grounds for deadly force to be used in defense. KY law is clear here - in such an instance, you may use physical force to remove them but not deadly force.

The guy has some kind of justiceporn fetish going on, I honestly believe that he is eagerly waiting for the slightest opportunity to murder someone. "they will get theirs, oh yes they will".

This is the conclusion I've come to. I kinda imagine him saying that with Gollum's voice too.

 

[HumblePie]

Actually, it does. Opening an unlocked door does not require force. It's really that simple. Criminal trespass in his state means being somewhere you know you shouldn't be. For it to become something higher, force has to enter the equation. I suggest you actually look this up, there are actual case studies where open or unlocked doors being passed through did not present enough grounds for deadly force to be used in defense. KY law is clear here - in such an instance, you may use physical force to remove them but not deadly force.

Wrong by legal standards. Opening an unlock door is breaking and entering. It is using force to do so. It transgresses from criminal trespass to forcibly entering.

 

[nehalem256]

Actually, it does. Opening an unlocked door does not require force. It's really that simple. Criminal trespass in his state means being somewhere you know you shouldn't be. For it to become something higher, force has to enter the equation. I suggest you actually look this up, there are actual case studies where open or unlocked doors being passed through did not present enough grounds for deadly force to be used in defense. KY law is clear here - in such an instance, you may use physical force to remove them but not deadly force.

So what you are saying is that if you forget to lock your door one night it is basically open-season on your house?:hmm:

 

[RampantAndroid]

Wrong by legal standards. Opening an unlock door is breaking and entering. It is using force to do so. It transgresses from criminal trespass to forcibly entering.

Wow you people, must I do all the *(&$%ing work here? Lazy people.

A person is guilty of criminal trespass in the first degree when he knowingly
enters or remains unlawfully in a dwelling.

(1) A person is guilty of burglary in the third degree when, with the intent to commit
a crime, he knowingly enters or remains unlawfully in a building.

I just got through the door without intent. Can't shoot me. This protects some poor sod who is lost from entering the wrong house, being confused and then dying. Do some god damn research and come back at me with actual case studies or don't come back.

 

[RampantAndroid]

So what you are saying is that if you forget to lock your door one night it is basically open-season on your house?:hmm:

No. Intent enters the equation. In KY law, if you can see their intent is to rob you, lethal force becomes OK again. If they just stand there, you can use physical force to remove them. If they enter and then somehow put you in fear of your life, you can use lethal force.

You didn't read the laws did you?

 

[2timer]

Wow you people, must I do all the *(&$%ing work here? Lazy people.

I just got through the door without intent. Can't shoot me. This protects some poor sod who is lost from entering the wrong house, being confused and then dying. Do some god damn research and come back at me with actual case studies or don't come back.

Good point.

 

[ElFenix]

Wow you people, must I do all the *(&$%ing work here? Lazy people.

you just changed your argument. opening an unlocked door is breaking in most (maybe all, now) states. per this criminal lawyer, some minimal force is required in michigan to be breaking, but it's only minimal (so, not just breaking the plane of the building).

http://www.grabellaw.com/breaking-and-entering.html

that also is implicit in the michigan penal code which uses the term 'entering without breaking'

http://www.legislature.mi.gov/(S(11...eg.aspx?page=getObject&objectName=mcl-750-111

 

[Londo_Jowo]

No. Intent enters the equation. In KY law, if you can see their intent is to rob you, lethal force becomes OK again. If they just stand there, you can use physical force to remove them. If they enter and then somehow put you in fear of your life, you can use lethal force.

You didn't read the laws did you?

Intent is used when determining whether a person is guilty of the crime/s of breaking and entering/home invasion/burglary.

I don't think a homeowner is required to determine intent before he can use deadly force to protect themselves/property.

 

[bshole]

I don't think a homeowner is required to determine intent before he can use deadly force to protect themselves/property.

So the girl scout selling cookies is fair game? Just open up on her?

You NRA types can be quite scary....

 

[SpatiallyAware]

So the girl scout selling cookies is fair game? Just open up on her?

You NRA types can be quite scary....

Is the girl scout beating down the door and ripping through screens at 3am?

 

[ElFenix]

Is the girl scout beating down the door and ripping through screens at 3am?

evidence of ripping through screens?

 

[SpatiallyAware]

evidence of ripping through screens?

Evidence of rainisha being a girl scout?

 

[RampantAndroid]

Is the girl scout beating down the door and ripping through screens at 3am?

I keep saying no force. The reading comprehension.

you just changed your argument. opening an unlocked door is breaking in most (maybe all, now) states. per this criminal lawyer, some minimal force is required in michigan to be breaking, but it's only minimal (so, not just breaking the plane of the building).

http://www.grabellaw.com/breaking-and-entering.html

that also is implicit in the michigan penal code which uses the term 'entering without breaking'

http://www.legislature.mi.gov/(S(11...eg.aspx?page=getObject&objectName=mcl-750-111

Yes - some states define laws that involve entry without force. KY does not, and is explicit on when lethal force may be used. My arguement has remained the same the whole time.

So the girl scout selling cookies is fair game? Just open up on her?

You NRA types can be quite scary....

I own in excess of 10 guns. It's people like spidey who are insane, not all gun owners. I have to be an NRA member to be a member at one of my local ranges.

 

[Londo_Jowo]

So the girl scout selling cookies is fair game? Just open up on her?

You NRA types can be quite scary....

LMAO!!!!!! Is that what you got out of my statement?

Gun owner for 37 years and never joined the NRA.