$1B bet AGANST a pryamid scheme (HerbaLife)

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Jimzz

Diamond Member
Oct 23, 2012
4,399
190
106
This, you buy politicians off to prevent the investigation. Once the ball gets rolling you better be on firm ground.


Most US agencies are a joke if you have any power/money. Madoff was investigated by the SEC several times and cleared. MADOFF WAS CLEARED BY THE SEC. If that does not tell you how much a joke the SEC is I don't know.
SEC's "settlements/Plea Bargins" are such a joke judges are laughing them out of court as they don't even meet slap on the wrist level of punishments.

EDIT:
The FTC has said they are NOT looking into HerbaLife. A FTC spokeman said they used the wrong language. I'm guessing a paid off HerbaLife friend made some calls real quick to others at the FTC on this. That did not take long to "clear" up.
 
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PokerGuy

Lifer
Jul 2, 2005
13,650
201
101
Looks like Ackerman made the right bet. Stock getting absolutely hammered today on news that there is an investigation ongoing.
 

Jimzz

Diamond Member
Oct 23, 2012
4,399
190
106
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Hugo Drax

Diamond Member
Nov 20, 2011
5,647
47
91
Now you're arguing a different point. First you were saying that HLF was unassailable because they had money to spend and now you're saying that maybe Ackman can't hurt them quickly enough. Those two are not at all related. Whether Ackman is the person who drives the nail into the coffin or whether he gets squeezed and goes bankrupt leaving some other entity to lead to the downfall of HLF is irrelevant. HLF is a scam, everyone knows it's a scam and it WILL collapse like the house of cards it is no matter who they pay. Period.

It is really the same point. Ackman thinks that by putting that presentation together and handing it out will make the FTC act. Unfortunately for him he was a bit naive thinking that even if you give them everything on a silver platter they will act.

I do not see now or in the foreseeable future HLF being investigated and shut down by the FTC or any other agency.

Which for Ackman it is unfortunate, well more like his investors since he is playing russian roulette with other peoples money.


His best bet would be to cover and salvage a profit now and not hope for the FTC miracle to make his position a huge win. Next month HLF goes Ex-dividend again, so that means he will have to pay a little over 6 million dollars out of his investors pocket to HLF owners (Payment in lieu of dividends) if he plans to continue holding that short position.
 
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Hugo Drax

Diamond Member
Nov 20, 2011
5,647
47
91
Yep even judges have turned down plea deals setup by SEC due to them being so weak they are a joke.
SEC is a joke and many in the SEC are just working there till a better private job opens. So they can't be to strong or they will be blacklisted in the private sector.

That is correct, lots of folks working at the SEC expect an open door at the bulge brackets when they finish their term. I scratch your back, you scratch my back.
 

lothar

Diamond Member
Jan 5, 2000
6,674
7
76
Care to elaborate?
Herbal Life's stock was up 20% in pre-market trading earlier today due to Carl Icahn's SEC filing showing he owns 13% of Herbal Life now.

If Bill Ackman isn't careful, he could lose his shirt.
 

IronWing

No Lifer
Jul 20, 2001
69,551
27,858
136
The Yahoo Finance headline put it best: "Stay Away From Stocks Manipulated by the 1%". At this point whether I think Herbalife deserves a higher/lower price I would stay away.
 

WhoBeDaPlaya

Diamond Member
Sep 15, 2000
7,414
401
126
Good. After that, hope he goes after Amway and Market America. Their zealots have been bothering the f*ck out of me for years :|
 

WhoBeDaPlaya

Diamond Member
Sep 15, 2000
7,414
401
126
Quixtar is Amway, just bundled with Brit World Wide. Too many of those idiots in Ames, IA.
 

lothar

Diamond Member
Jan 5, 2000
6,674
7
76
Carl Icahn Is Squeezing Bill Ackman To Death With Herbalife Trade
Last week, billionaire investor Carl Icahn sat on a stage at New York’s Pierre Hotel and was feeling so good about his bet on Herbalife that he almost sounded magnanimous towards his biggest Wall Street rival, the billionaire hedge fund manager William Ackman. “I like Ackman,” Icahn said. “Anybody that makes me a quarter billion dollars I like.”

During his talk, televised on CNBC, Icahn carefully explained his approach to investing this year in Herbalife, the controversial nutritional supplements seller that Ackman has been vocally shorting in a massive way. Icahn and Ackman, of course, don’t like each other at all, but their big duel over Herbalife has turned into a one-sided affair so far in 2013.

Shares of Herbalife surged higher on Monday, rising by more than 6% to $59.39. The stock is now up 80% in 2013 and has increased to its highest level since David Einhorn, another prominent billionaire hedge fund manager, first questioned Herbalife’s business model on one of the company’s conference calls more than one year ago. There has been no news from the company in recent days as the stock has exploded, rising more than 20% in the last six trading days, suggesting the trading in the stock is perhaps being driven by increasing skepticism about the big short thesis on Herbalife.

During the epic verbal battle between Icahn and Ackman that was televised on CNBC in January, Icahn predicted that Ackman’s Herbalife investment could produce the “mother of all short squeezes.” Shortly after that incident, it became clear that Icahn had taken a big position in Herbalife’s stock. He has since expanded that position, bought 16.5% of the outstanding shares and gotten two representatives on Herbalife’s board. Last week Icahn suggested that the “daughter” of all short squeezes had already begun in Herbalife’s stock.

Semantics aside, the news is very bad for Ackman and investors in his Pershing Square hedge fund. In December, Ackman said he was short more than 20 million shares of Herbalife, betting some $1 billion they would decline in value. Even before the recent price action, the dramatic move this year of Herbalife’s stock in the opposite direction had hurt Ackman’s overall investment returns in 2013. Now those returns will have to overcome the sizzling summer in Herbalife’s stock.
http://www.forbes.com/sites/nathanv...ng-bill-ackman-to-death-with-herbalife-trade/
The stock is trading around $60.12 as of this post.
 

Blackjack200

Lifer
May 28, 2007
15,995
1,685
126
He was fucked the moment the FTC didn't investigate. I have to imagine he began covering his shorts at that point.
 

bradley

Diamond Member
Jan 9, 2000
3,671
2
81
Upon first reading this story, I assumed he had inside information about essentially a 33-yo company being investigated in the near term. Sucks to be him.
 

Blackjack200

Lifer
May 28, 2007
15,995
1,685
126

Only watched the first half of that but I don't think it suggests anything about what Ackman's position is.

If Ackman was covering his shorts, the street would certainly know it because he'd be returning all the borrowed shares.

But there's another way to do it, he could buy HLF shares long and create a box position, locking in his losses but reducing his exposure to more losses.

I have no idea if he's done this, I imagine it would be pretty difficult to buy hundreds of million of dollars worth of HLF without the street figuring it out.
 

QueBert

Lifer
Jan 6, 2002
22,460
775
126
There's a local health food spot that serves Herbal Life shakes, MLM or not the store does a crazy amount of business. People are all over their shakes so there is some legitimacy to the company. When I think pyramid scheme, I think schemes. Don't really see the scheme here. Yeah there are a lot of people who get caught up trying to get rich on the recruiting side and lose their ass. But the company sells a real product and it's one that many people actually buy. Avoid the marketing BS and they do make a fairly decent MRP shake, and it's not even really that expensive compared to the other options out there.
 
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