2,000 Dead, Better Pull Out Now! But then again...

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Proletariat

Diamond Member
Dec 9, 2004
5,614
0
0
Originally posted by: glenn1
I detest war, but you better pray to your God for you safety if my freedom and families are threaten.

Trust me, I don't like war either. But I think with your experiences you can agree that war is sometimes less bad than the alternative. Democracy is a side issue - I could care less if Iraq becomes democratic, socialist, or any other form of stable government which respects the basic human rights of its citizens and its neighbors. Obviously the closer to classical liberalism they go, the better I think it will be for them, but that's for them to decide.

Rather than using the example of the U.S. and French involvement in Vietnam as a comparison (which I will agree is tainted and was not with entirely pure motives), let's try another case. Given the events in Cambodia, including Pol Pot's Killing Fields, would you agree or disagree that Vietnam's invasion was a less bad alternative than Cambodian genocide? Like the U.S., Vietnam's hands weren't completely clean either, and I think it's fair to say that Vietnam was not motivated by a desire to "force democracy down their throats" (Cambodia's throat, that is).

http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Pol_Pot
 

glenn1

Lifer
Sep 6, 2000
25,383
1,013
126
Well because we don't have the right to send those guys over there if we aren't in danger.

If you ever wanted proof that the progressive movement is no longer worthy of the name, this is it. In two generations progressives have gone from pioneers who tried (and hanged until dead) Nazis for crimes against humanity, to someone with the handle "Proletariat" who says we don't have the right to intervene in a genocide because "we aren't in danger." What a completely morally bankrupt and cowardly position.
 

JinLien

Golden Member
Aug 24, 2005
1,038
0
0
Trust me, I don't like war either. But I think with your experiences you can agree that war is sometimes less bad than the alternative. Democracy is a side issue - I could care less if Iraq becomes democratic, socialist, or any other form of stable government which respects the basic human rights of its citizens and its neighbors. Obviously the closer to classical liberalism they go, the better I think it will be for them, but that's for them to decide.

Rather than using the example of the U.S. and French involvement in Vietnam as a comparison (which I will agree is tainted and was not with entirely pure motives), let's try another case. Given the events in Cambodia, including Pol Pot's Killing Fields, would you agree or disagree that Vietnam's invasion was a less bad alternative than Cambodian genocide? Like the U.S., Vietnam's hands weren't completely clean either, and I think it's fair to say that Vietnam was not motivated by a desire to "force democracy down their throats" (Cambodia's throat, that is).
Many people including myself dind't know the reason for the in Cambodia invasion during the time, and most people (countries) was claiming that it was a land grab since Cambodia was a Communist country. It could be many reasons for the invasion, but the halt to the killing is likely the very top reason. Side note, the land grab theory claim that Cambodia was a difficult place to man because of their resistant to foreign power and they had backing from Thailand (USA)/China that why Vietname left the country quickly after they deposted Pol Pot.

The strange thing is why the American Administration heart bleeds for the Iraqis, and it weren?t for the Cambodians (2 million deaths in mass graves in 2 years)? Perhaps the Cambodian bloods weren?t full of black gold.

 

Proletariat

Diamond Member
Dec 9, 2004
5,614
0
0
Originally posted by: glenn1
Well because we don't have the right to send those guys over there if we aren't in danger.

If you ever wanted proof that the progressive movement is no longer worthy of the name, this is it. In two generations progressives have gone from pioneers who tried (and hanged until dead) Nazis for crimes against humanity, to someone with the handle "Proletariat" who says we don't have the right to intervene in a genocide because "we aren't in danger." What a completely morally bankrupt and cowardly position.
Well you've called me out here by selecting one sentence out of my entire message

Let me explain more clearly since you think I'm some sort of fascist:

I'm saying as a "liberal protestor" I can't willfully send other Americans into dangerous positions. But I still believe that things must be done, true justice cannot be meted out in the current system though.

 

jpeyton

Moderator in SFF, Notebooks, Pre-Built/Barebones
Moderator
Aug 23, 2003
25,375
142
116
By ROBERT H. REID, Associated Press Writer

BAGHDAD, Iraq - The American military death toll in the Iraq war reached 2,000 Tuesday with the announcements of three more deaths, including an Army sergeant who died of wounds at a military hospital in Texas and two Marines killed last week in fighting west of Baghdad.

The 2,000 mark was reached amid growing doubts among the American public about the Iraq conflict, launched in March 2003 to destroy Saddam Hussein's alleged weapons of mass destruction. None was ever found.

In Washington, the U.S. Senate observed a moment of silence in honor of the fallen 2,000. "We owe them a deep debt of gratitude for their courage, for their valor, for their strength, for their commitment to our country," said Republican Majority Leader Bill Frist.

Critics of the war also acknowledged the sacrifice, even as they questioned the policies of those who lead it.

"Our armed forces are serving ably in Iraq under enormously difficult circumstances, and the policy of our government must be worthy of their sacrifice. Unfortunately, it is not, and the American people know it," said Sen. Edward Kennedy (news, bio, voting record), the Massachusetts Democrat.

Sen. Robert Byrd (news, bio, voting record), a veteran Democrat from West Virginia, said Americans should expect "many more losses to come."

"More than 135,000 U.S. troops remain in Iraq. They did not ask to be sent to war, but each day, they carry out their duty while risking their lives. It is only reasonable that the American people, and their elected representatives, ask more questions about what the future holds in Iraq," Byrd said.

President Bush warned the U.S. public to brace for more casualties in the fight against "as brutal an enemy as we have ever faced, unconstrained by any notion of common humanity and by the rules of warfare."

"No one should underestimate the difficulties ahead," Bush said in a speech Tuesday before the Joint Armed Forces Officers' Wives' luncheon in Washington.

As a sign of those challenges, one of Iraq's most ruthless terror groups ? al-Qaida in Iraq ? claimed responsibility for Monday's suicide attacks against hotels housing Western journalists and contractors in Baghdad, as well as suicide bombings Tuesday in northern Iraq.

In the latest casualty reports, the Pentagon said Staff Sgt. George T. Alexander Jr., 34, of Killeen, Texas, died Saturday in San Antonio of wounds suffered Oct. 17 in a blast in Samarra, a city 60 miles north of the Iraqi capital.

Earlier Tuesday, the U.S. military announced the deaths of two unidentified Marines in fighting last week in a village 25 miles west of Baghdad. Those announcements brought the U.S. death toll to 2,000, according to figures compiled by The Associated Press.

It was unclear who was the 2,000th service member to die in Iraq since the U.S. military often delays death announcements until families are notified. On Monday, for example, the U.S. command announced that an unidentified Marine was killed in action the day before ? after the deaths of the three service members reported Tuesday.

In an e-mail statement to Baghdad-based journalists, command spokesman Lt. Col. Steve Boylan said media attention on the 2,000 figure was misguided and "set by individuals or groups with specific agendas and ulterior motives."

He described the grim statistic as an "artificial mark on the wall" and urged news organizations to focus more on the accomplishments of the U.S. military mission in Iraq.

For example, Iraqi officials announced Tuesday that voters had approved a new constitution in the Oct. 15 referendum, laying the foundation for constitutional, democratic Iraqi government after decades of Saddam's tyranny.

"I ask that when you report on the events, take a moment to think about the effects on the families and those serving in Iraq," Boylan wrote. "The 2,000 service members killed in Iraq supporting Operation Iraqi Freedom is not a milestone."

Boylan said the 2,000th service member to die in Iraq "is just as important as the first that died and will be just as important as the last to die in this war against terrorism and to ensure freedom for a people who have not known freedom in over two generations."

He complained that the true milestones of the war were "rarely covered or discussed," including the troops who had volunteered to serve, the families of those that have been deployed for a year or more, and the Iraqis who have sought at great risk to restore normalcy to their country.

"Celebrate the daily milestones, the accomplishments they have secured and look to the future of a free and democratic Iraq and to the day that all of our troops return home to the heroes welcome they deserve," Boylan wrote.

In the latest fighting, U.S. and Iraqi troops raided insurgent safe houses Tuesday northwest of Qaim, a tense town near the Syrian border along a major infiltration route for foreign fighters. At one safe house, where women and children were also staying, an exchange of fire detonated an insurgent's suicide vest, causing the roof to collapse, a U.S. statement said.

"The women and children were rescued from the rubble and treated by medical personnel," the statement added. U.S. aircraft then destroyed three buildings after the survivors were taken to a safe area, the statement said.

Elsewhere, suicide car bombs exploded Tuesday in the generally peaceful Kurdish province of Sulaimaniyah, killing 12 people. Al-Qaida in Iraq claimed responsibility in an Internet statement.

The group also said it was behind the three suicide car bombs aimed at the Palestine and Sheraton hotels in Baghdad. Deputy Interior Minister Maj. Gen. Hussein Ali Kamal said 17 people were killed ? mostly hotel guards and passers-by ? in Monday's attack, which involved bombers driving two cars and a cement truck.

The U.S. soldier who shot and killed the truck driver said he initially had a hard time seeing the truck drive through the breach that the first car explosion had created in the concrete wall.

"Once the dust and the debris settled down, I noticed the truck had already breached through our perimeter," Spc. Darrell Green told CNN American Morning. "He backed up and then pulled forward. As he was doing that, I engaged in machine gun and took out the driver. If he had made it through, he could have done a lot more damage, a lot more casualties than what actually happened."

In a Web posting, al-Qaida in Iraq said it carried out the hotel attack to target a "dirty harbor of intelligence agents and private American, British and Australian security companies." The hotel complex houses offices of the AP and other media organizations.

Also Tuesday, insurgents killed six Iraqis ? a 7-year-old boy, two Iraqi soldiers and three policemen ? and wounded 45 others in a series of attacks in Baghdad.

A video posted on an Islamic extremist Web site showed a U.S. soldier being shot in Iraq while guarding an armored vehicle. The militant Islamic Army in Iraq said one of its snipers killed the soldier in Baghdad on Monday, but the U.S. military said it could not verify the authenticity of the claim.
 

Polish3d

Diamond Member
Jul 6, 2005
5,500
0
0
Originally posted by: glenn1
As usual, those opposing the war will mark this milestone in completely the wrong way. A progressive worthy of the name would have wistfully mourned the loss of so many men with the regret that if we had done the morally right thing 25 or 30 years ago like we should have, there would have been both less Americans killed and an entire generation of Iraqis wouldn't have suffered a complete loss of thier human rights under a genocidal dictator.

Instead, the left of today will mourn with crocodile tears the dead, and despair of the cost to the Treasury. Like the accountant who knows the cost of everything and the value of nothing, the left in this country is completely oblivious to the value of the principle of standing up for human rights and are instead dwelling on the costs and dreaming of what social programs they'd have funded with it instead. Faced with the choice between supporting their ideals and their baser desires, they betrayed their ideals and would have left yet another generation of "brown skinned people" (which IMHO they secretly hold in complete disregard, if not contempt - notice their unveiled assertions that Arabs aren't mentally or culturally disposed to democracy) to the whims of a genocidal madman.

Nice post
 

Red Dawn

Elite Member
Jun 4, 2001
57,529
3
0
Originally posted by: johnnobts
To all the wacko liberals who want to use 2,000 as some sort of arbitrary number to justify an immediate American withdrawl from Iraq, consider the following bit of history: During the American War for Independence (which lasted longer than the present war in Iraq) did you know that a total of 2,113 FRENCH soldiers died fighting on our side? What if France has said, "Well, 2,000 is our quota, sorry Americans, good luck in your fight for freedom..." Luckily, the French stayed the course. Its so sad that the biggest piece of news this week isn't about the ratification of the Iraqi constitution, but the big 2-0-0-0.

Are you aware the France and England were at war at that time and that North America was just another front in that war?

Also where were those brave Iraqi Revolutionaries fighting to overthrow Hussein? Wait there weren't any, we and our bought and paid for allies had to do all the fighting ourselves. The only thing that might even remotely resemble American Colonial Revolutionaries are those murderous scumbags killing American Soldiers and their fellow Iraqi's.

As I have pointed out in previous posts in other threads the American Public didn't initially support the invasion and the occupation of Iraq because we wanted to make sure the Iraqis had freedom, no we initially supported it because the Dub and his handlers sold us a bill of goods about Iraq being a threat to our national security which has now be shown to be false. Now if the Iraqis would have risen up against their oppressors like we did against England I sure they have a lot more of our sympathy but they really haven't. Unlike our Colonial Forefathers they aren't fighting the main battles for their freedom, we are doing most of the fighting. During the our Revolutionary war France sent some troops to support us, well in Iraq we are not there in a supporting role, we are the main combatants fighting for their freedom. IMO if they value their freedom so much I would think they'd step up to the fighting a lot more than they have. It's not as if they are fighting a Super Power like our Colonial Forefathers did back in the 18th Century.
 

Moonbeam

Elite Member
Nov 24, 1999
73,072
6,306
126
Originally posted by: Red Dawn
Originally posted by: johnnobts
To all the wacko liberals who want to use 2,000 as some sort of arbitrary number to justify an immediate American withdrawl from Iraq, consider the following bit of history: During the American War for Independence (which lasted longer than the present war in Iraq) did you know that a total of 2,113 FRENCH soldiers died fighting on our side? What if France has said, "Well, 2,000 is our quota, sorry Americans, good luck in your fight for freedom..." Luckily, the French stayed the course. Its so sad that the biggest piece of news this week isn't about the ratification of the Iraqi constitution, but the big 2-0-0-0.

Are you aware the France and England were at war at that time and that North America was just another front in that war?

Also where were those brave Iraqi Revolutionaries fighting to overthrow Hussein? Wait there weren't any, we and our bought and paid for allies had to do all the fighting ourselves. The only thing that might even remotely resemble American Colonial Revolutionaries are those murderous scumbags killing American Soldiers and their fellow Iraqi's.

As I have pointed out in previous posts in other threads the American Public didn't initially support the invasion and the occupation of Iraq because we wanted to make sure the Iraqis had freedom, no we initially supported it because the Dub and his handlers sold us a bill of goods about Iraq being a threat to our national security which has now be shown to be false. Now if the Iraqis would have risen up against their oppressors like we did against England I sure they have a lot more of our sympathy but they really haven't. Unlike our Colonial Forefathers they aren't fighting the main battles for their freedom, we are doing most of the fighting. During the our Revolutionary war France sent some troops to support us, well in Iraq we are not there in a supporting role, we are the main combatants fighting for their freedom. IMO if they value their freedom so much I would think they'd step up to the fighting a lot more than they have. It's not as if they are fighting a Super Power like our Colonial Forefathers did back in the 18th Century.

And exactly what foreign government was in Iraq that we are helping the Iraqis free themselves from. Oh wait, that's right, we went in to destroy their government not a foreign one. And did we go to help them, or did we go to satisfy a Neocon dream of American world domination called PNAC. I think it's time the French come to the aid of the Iraqis like they did us 200 hundred plus years ago.

No, we didn't go to free anybody and we didn't go because of any imminent threat. We went because the morons on the right have won a majority and the psychopathic Neocons seized control and implemented their sick dream. That sacrifice of billions in treasury and social dreams, that blood on the altar is all on the altar of the military industrial complex and the business of endless war. We are in the hands of vermin and vultures and moral scum who hide their real intentions behind the flag, religion, and fear.

Your idealism is being used to murder people in other lands every day. The whole world warned us not to go to war in Iraq but we were led their by lying pig headed assholes. If you support them you are also one. We have committed a grievous error and the penalty is to eat sh!t. You are looking at one big helping right there on your plate. The Iraqi people now want to kill you for your kind love. The arrogance of power destroys itself in the ambitions of those who love power and dream of more and more and more. Two thousand lives press down on the handle of the Neocon toilet and the water is starting to swirl. Bu bye, Republican power. Your loss will be mourned by the ill. And the cowardly, me-too Democrat garbage that voted for the war are no better. Ain't it just something that America is now against the war. Oh me oh my, fickle democracy. What's a poor war monger to do. How we gonna sell all these weapons if the soldiers go home.
 
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