2.2GHz Northwood at 3GHz

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Daovonnaex

Golden Member
Dec 16, 2001
1,952
0
0


<< <<Intel's engineering department is run by marketing monkeys.>>

I take offense to that. We have plenty of Intel engineers running around. Stupid comments like this one from you do offend these people. Grow up.
>>

I apologize. However, I believe marketing has a lot to do with the Pentium 4's design. The expense of designing a BPU for a 20 stage pipe line must have been enormous, and the only benefit is higher clock frequency with fewer operations performed. To me, that sounds like a less than ideal path.
 

Train

Lifer
Jun 22, 2000
13,572
66
91
www.bing.com


<< I apologize. However, I believe marketing has a lot to do with the Pentium 4's design. The expense of designing a BPU for a 20 stage pipe line must have been enormous, and the only benefit is higher clock frequency with fewer operations performed. To me, that sounds like a less than ideal path. >>

Ahem, Scalability
 

Daovonnaex

Golden Member
Dec 16, 2001
1,952
0
0


<< Ahem, Scalability >>

That's what I was thinking, but given a high number of transistors, couldn't you achieve similar performance (at a lower clock frequency) and still have scalability?
 

DJBOB

Member
Jan 1, 2002
29
0
0
Whoa nice OC. Hmm I think I'll hold out on my celie system and save up for that puppy. Shees 3Ghz air cooled. Damn

Bob
 

Train

Lifer
Jun 22, 2000
13,572
66
91
www.bing.com


<< That's what I was thinking, but given a high number of transistors, couldn't you achieve similar performance (at a lower clock frequency) and still have scalability? >>

Not entirely, though the P4 was designed for more than JUST scalability, as it is geared more torwards high bandwith mulitmedia, which is why the marketing is based on better digital music and video. But In the long run, its cheaper to create an architecture that will last through many clock speed increases, because just inceasing the clock and shrinking the die is the cheapest way to improve performance, redesigning the architecture is by far the biggest investment. Notice the P3 architecture, which started with the Pentium Pro somewhere around 100mhz, went all the way up to 1ghz P3 (with minor architecural changes and die shrinks) That architecture couldnt handle higher speeds. Intel is hoping the P4 architecture will last just as long. AMD fans put too much emphasis on IPC (instructions per clock) IMO, notice the Athlon is getting mods to its design much more often, eventually they are going to have to follow the same route of the P4, with longer pipelines and more transistors, to achieve better OVERALL performance.
 

BlvdKing

Golden Member
Jun 7, 2000
1,173
0
0
I disagree. AMD will add a couple stages to the pipeline for hammer but is focusing on IPC by putting the memory controller on the chip. Also, AMD tends to lag behind Intel when it comes to die shrinks, but partially makes up for it with copper interconnects. The hammer will use SOI and .13 micron, which should make it scale very well. I don't think AMD is interested in continuing this idiotic MHz war, where the longest pipeline and smallest process wins.
 

apoppin

Lifer
Mar 9, 2000
34,890
1
0
alienbabeltech.com


<< I don't think AMD is interested in continuing this idiotic MHz war, where the longest pipeline and smallest process wins. >>


Nonsense . . . did you forget - just last year (well, 2000) - when they made such a big deal of having the fastest processor - when they beat Intel to 1.0 Ghz?

Everything is measured by performance. It doesn't matter how it is achieved - higher Mhz or more IPC - it's how the benchmarks compare. And RIGHT NOW, Intel has the performance crown back with the O/C'd Northwood.
 

JackBurton

Lifer
Jul 18, 2000
15,993
14
81
Damn, when the hell is PC1066 coming out?! I'm looking at the P4 2.0A GHz chip but I don't think my current memory can take 133MHz+ FSB. I'd like to push the 2.0A chip to close to 3GHz but I'll NEED PC1066...or drop my memory down to 3 X FSB (instead of 4 X FSB) which I DON'T want to do. :| The Northwood looks kick ass but I'm not going to pay close to $700 for it. Hopefully it will drop quiet a bit in price when it is officially announced.
 

Daovonnaex

Golden Member
Dec 16, 2001
1,952
0
0


<<

<< That's what I was thinking, but given a high number of transistors, couldn't you achieve similar performance (at a lower clock frequency) and still have scalability? >>

Not entirely, though the P4 was designed for more than JUST scalability, as it is geared more torwards high bandwith mulitmedia, which is why the marketing is based on better digital music and video. But In the long run, its cheaper to create an architecture that will last through many clock speed increases, because just inceasing the clock and shrinking the die is the cheapest way to improve performance, redesigning the architecture is by far the biggest investment. Notice the P3 architecture, which started with the Pentium Pro somewhere around 100mhz, went all the way up to 1ghz P3 (with minor architecural changes and die shrinks) That architecture couldnt handle higher speeds. Intel is hoping the P4 architecture will last just as long. AMD fans put too much emphasis on IPC (instructions per clock) IMO, notice the Athlon is getting mods to its design much more often, eventually they are going to have to follow the same route of the P4, with longer pipelines and more transistors, to achieve better OVERALL performance.
>>

I've never thought long pipe lines were a fine idea because of the engineering costs of creating such an advanced BPU. IMO, the route of PowerPC CPUs is the best, where performance is increased by die shrinks and additional transistors, not by lengthening pipe lines. However, I do believe that AMD will follow Intel's route and use longer pipe lines in the future because of marketing concerns.
 

BlvdKing

Golden Member
Jun 7, 2000
1,173
0
0
I said AMD is not 'continuing' the MHz war. The model numbers and the MHz Myth campaign back me up on this. AMD is stressing IPC * MHz and not just MHz like Intel is. It's proven that AMD is taking another marketing path on it's CPU's, instead of stressing the same old MHz standard.

As for performance, Intel and AMD will take the crown from each other for quite some time. I'm not worried.



<<

<< I don't think AMD is interested in continuing this idiotic MHz war, where the longest pipeline and smallest process wins. >>


Nonsense . . . did you forget - just last year (well, 2000) - when they made such a big deal of having the fastest processor - when they beat Intel to 1.0 Ghz?

Everything is measured by performance. It doesn't matter how it is achieved - higher Mhz or more IPC - it's how the benchmarks compare. And RIGHT NOW, Intel has the performance crown back with the O/C'd Northwood.
>>

 

Degenerate

Platinum Member
Dec 17, 2000
2,271
0
0
<< man, 3 gigs, solitaire must really fly on that rig. >>
Hehe!

BTW, i think of the PR as showing that MHz is important, esp in marketing (by AMD's point of view). Of course, hogher MHz on the same chip means higher performance, in general. I dunno, just my 1.63 cents

I would also expect the northwood to drop in price quite sharply at the start (27th jan i think). Personally i would wait fo the 533mhz bus and Pc 1066.
 

apoppin

Lifer
Mar 9, 2000
34,890
1
0
alienbabeltech.com


<< So just to clarify, the Northwood P4's are not out. I am correct or not. >>



Yes, you are correct . . . or not.

They ARE out in limited quantities in the USA and available in quantity in Japan. I believe the "official" US release is next week. You can - if you wish to pay a premium - buy them NOW.
 

Daovonnaex

Golden Member
Dec 16, 2001
1,952
0
0


<< << man, 3 gigs, solitaire must really fly on that rig. >>
Hehe!

BTW, i think of the PR as showing that MHz is important, esp in marketing (by AMD's point of view). Of course, hogher MHz on the same chip means higher performance, in general. I dunno, just my 1.63 cents

I would also expect the northwood to drop in price quite sharply at the start (27th jan i think). Personally i would wait fo the 533mhz bus and Pc 1066.
>>

I plan to wait for Via to beat Intel in that lawsuit. The P4X266A beats the i850 in many areas of performance, and odds are that boards with it will have better overclocking support. I also like the SiS 645, but not that much. RDRAM simply has too much latency for me, and it doesn't take too much overclocking (and we know how the northwood overclocks) to get DDR SDRAM to the same bandwidth as dual-channel RDRAM.
 

Degenerate

Platinum Member
Dec 17, 2000
2,271
0
0
I am pretty sure that the Rdram does come out the fastest for the current P4's. But i think i'll have to see the benchies from AT or somewhere to be convinced.
 

Duvie

Elite Member
Feb 5, 2001
16,215
0
71
I agree it looks like sis is the best solution overall...rdram or not...

I also think amd likes to keep the race close and uses intel to set its timetable...I think the hammer will come out faster then most think...There was no need to release it until the northwoods really started arriving. They were bitch-slapping the p4's at near 400mhz disadvantage. And with northwoods only carrying a 10 percent boost over older p4's their latest 2.2ghz doesn't put it much above the amd 2000+. I would expect shortly after the 2.4 or 2.5ghz release you will see some hammer action. I have heard reports of engineering samples for awhile so I am sure they can produce them. AMD will never let them get to far ahead...

All the while amd gains market share...Lat report I saw showed at years end amd had majority of market share in both asia and europe...ONly in US where amd doesn't spend billions on advertising blitz and the ppl are more sheep and believe mhz hype do they only get 30percent of the market. Not knocking the uS as I live there I just talk to a lot of those sheep on a daily basis...(ie most of the bestbuy moronic salestaff)

Note: To all BB salespersons here who are offended by that comment...Who cares...I am not P.C.
 

Slawsk

Member
Dec 21, 2001
41
0
0
um.....im new here, but for around $600 for a 2.2 ghz chip, why not just get a dual athlon mp rig and save some $$$???
 

Daovonnaex

Golden Member
Dec 16, 2001
1,952
0
0


<< SiS 645 ousts not only i850, but i845D, P4X266, and "A" of the same. >>

The P4X266A edges the SiS in a few tests, though. I agree, the 645 is the best, I've just never tried SiS. Still, I think I'd be willing to try it. Too bad the mobo manufacturers lined up behind the crappy i845D.
 

Daovonnaex

Golden Member
Dec 16, 2001
1,952
0
0


<< Not knocking the uS as I live there I just talk to a lot of those sheep on a daily basis...(ie most of the bestbuy moronic salestaff)

Note: To all BB salespersons here who are offended by that comment...Who cares...I am not P.C.
>>

You are a great man. I went to best buy once and asked for a NIC that did 35,000 Go nads, and the salesman brought back a Token Ring card and said that it did 50,000 Go nads! Go figure (pun intended).
 

MadRat

Lifer
Oct 14, 1999
11,941
264
126
SiS does not have the production capacity to supply the market with their chipset. This leaves alot of gray area for VIA and Intel to soak up. VIA is perfectly happy with bottom feeding in the market, especially when their chipsets tend to be the cheapest made. Intel has the most to lose from a successful SiS product. I highly doubt Intel will drop out of the mainstream chipset market like AMD; only releasing business-class chipsets.
 

christoph83

Senior member
Mar 12, 2001
812
0
0
Too bad the mobo manufacturers lined up behind the crappy i845D.

I dont think mobo manufacturers were going to line up behind this chipset if they thought it was crap. They would only do it if they think they would make money off it it. Besides most reviews state its once again one of the most stable chipsets and has very good overclocking abilities as well.
 
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