2% own more than half of all household wealth worldwide.

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bobdelt

Senior member
May 26, 2006
918
0
0
Originally posted by: sandorski
Originally posted by: bobdelt
Originally posted by: blackangst1
Originally posted by: senseamp
I don't have a problem with inherited wealth or living off of it. I have a problem with a government that thinks that inheritance and dividend income that you get by simply owning wealth or having rich relatives should be taxed less than income from hard work.

WTF are you talking about? So the guy making 28k/yr paying 14% income tax is paying MORE than someone making 200k/yr in a 49% tax bracket? WTF man you need to go back to grade school math...

Also...if by some chance you happened to create a product or service that took off and made you millions, you wouldnt want to leve to your kids? Or would you do what Bill Gates and Warren Buffet are doing and make sure everything is spent before you die? That just doesnt make sense to me...

err.... dividends are taxed at a lower rate because of "double taxation"... the corporation already paid taxes on those earnings. Why should they be taxed again when distributed. If the corporation was a partnership instead, they'd only be taxed once. One can argue dividends shouldnt be taxed at all, but the IRS nails you on that because its benficial to incorporate (sometimes)

That's a weak arguement. The Corporation made Income, so did the Shareholder. Each were Taxed once, the money has no Personhood.

No. Thats not a weak arguement. That's the truth. Income was only earned once. But its taxed twice. Distributing earnings != income. It may seem like income to the shareholder, but that shareholder also bought that company with after tax dollars. Again, compare it to a partnership... the partnership itself made money, but only the partners pay tax. Why should a corporation pay twice as much tax? And there are plenty of huge privately owned companies like this to avoid this taxation mess.

Go take a tax class.

If you dont believe me, why do corporations get a huge tax break on dividends they recieve (a corporation investing in other corporations).... to limit the amount of time these same profits are taxed, triple taxation, quadruple taxation, etc....

http://www.answers.com/topic/dividends-received-deduction-drd
 

sandorski

No Lifer
Oct 10, 1999
70,130
5,658
126
Originally posted by: bobdelt
Originally posted by: sandorski
Originally posted by: bobdelt
Originally posted by: blackangst1
Originally posted by: senseamp
I don't have a problem with inherited wealth or living off of it. I have a problem with a government that thinks that inheritance and dividend income that you get by simply owning wealth or having rich relatives should be taxed less than income from hard work.

WTF are you talking about? So the guy making 28k/yr paying 14% income tax is paying MORE than someone making 200k/yr in a 49% tax bracket? WTF man you need to go back to grade school math...

Also...if by some chance you happened to create a product or service that took off and made you millions, you wouldnt want to leve to your kids? Or would you do what Bill Gates and Warren Buffet are doing and make sure everything is spent before you die? That just doesnt make sense to me...

err.... dividends are taxed at a lower rate because of "double taxation"... the corporation already paid taxes on those earnings. Why should they be taxed again when distributed. If the corporation was a partnership instead, they'd only be taxed once. One can argue dividends shouldnt be taxed at all, but the IRS nails you on that because its benficial to incorporate (sometimes)

That's a weak arguement. The Corporation made Income, so did the Shareholder. Each were Taxed once, the money has no Personhood.

No. Thats not a weak arguement. That's the truth. Income was only earned once. But its taxed twice. Distributing earnings != income. It may seem like income to the shareholder, but that shareholder also bought that company with after tax dollars. Again, compare it to a partnership... the partnership itself made money, but only the partners pay tax. Why should a corporation pay twice as much tax? And there are plenty of huge privately owned companies like this to avoid this taxation mess.

Go take a tax class.

If you dont believe me, why do corporations get a huge tax break on dividends they recieve (a corporation investing in other corporations).... to limit the amount of time these same profits are taxed, triple taxation, quadruple taxation, etc....

http://www.answers.com/topic/dividends-received-deduction-drd

The Corporation does not pay twice. The Corporation pays Once, the Shareholder pays Once. The Law is probably on your side in this, I dunno, but this is a case of the Law being an Ass if it is.
 

judasmachine

Diamond Member
Sep 15, 2002
8,515
3
81
I 'm sure they worked reeeaaallll hard for it too. They got off their butts, and attended the reading of the wills.
 

zephyrprime

Diamond Member
Feb 18, 2001
7,512
2
81
You guys are confused about your divendend tax laws. Let me clear things up for you.

Dividends used to be double taxed at the company and the shareholder level. That ended with the "Jobs and Growth Tax Relief Reconciliation Act of 2003". Dividends are now only single taxed at a rate of 15% at the shareholder level.

blackangst1

WTF are you talking about? So the guy making 28k/yr paying 14% income tax is paying MORE than someone making 200k/yr in a 49% tax bracket? WTF man you need to go back to grade school math...
If a person made $200K through wages (earned income), then the tax rate would indeed be high as you claim. But if the person earns $200K though dividends or capital gains alone, the rate will be no more than 15%.

 

Craig234

Lifer
May 1, 2006
38,548
349
126
Originally posted by: yllus
I actually tend to think that voting (with your pocketbook, as we all have) for a true producer and job creator like Mr. Gates is a far superior option than voting for your average busybody, do-nothing politician. Any nation would stand to gain from a man like him orchestrating its fiscal policy.

That's because you have the sort of uninformed 'fanboyish' view of capitalism which you won't find among any really familiar with business and government, including Gates.

You need to learn a little something about the different purposes of respresenitng the public politically and serving them as a businessman.

Originally posted by: Vic
Originally posted by: Craig234
You're wrong. Over the last 25 years, the bottom 90% of Americans have had their income remain virtually flat in real dollars, while the top few most wealthy have skyrocketed.

This is why the top 5% have increased their owner ship from half of all the wealth in the US to over three fourths during that time (the bottom 95% from half to under 25% of course).

Our policies are way out of wack and democracy and the well-being of most Americans is harmed as a result. We have to fight for democracy and a middle class.

What republicans fail to realize is that it's not the commies we have to fight, it's the people who wrap themselves in the flag who have taken over the republican party.

The "democrats are just as bad" line plays right into the hands of those crooks, but it could happen, if they get so powerful they can take over the democratic party, too.

The democrats are, of course, already affected by the need for fund-raising. But few Americans recognize the need to elect independant democrats and defeat the corruption.
Bad news, they did that more than a century ago. Both parties have been hopelessly corrupt from not long after their respective original creations.
Seconded. My American Civil War lecture back in university really opened my eyes to the history and orientation of both parties. (And even if you're not out to gain understanding, it's an interesting read.)[/quote]

You can't begin to compare the democratic party of the post-civil war era and the party today. Things have changed so much that it's meaningless. FDR did have an impact...

The ignorance of the right-wing cult members about democrats is unfortunate.
 

Vic

Elite Member
Jun 12, 2001
50,415
14,307
136
Originally posted by: Craig234
Originally posted by: yllus
I actually tend to think that voting (with your pocketbook, as we all have) for a true producer and job creator like Mr. Gates is a far superior option than voting for your average busybody, do-nothing politician. Any nation would stand to gain from a man like him orchestrating its fiscal policy.

That's because you have the sort of uninformed 'fanboyish' view of capitalism which you won't find among any really familiar with business and government, including Gates.

You need to learn a little something about the different purposes of respresenitng the public politically and serving them as a businessman.

Originally posted by: Vic
Originally posted by: Craig234
You're wrong. Over the last 25 years, the bottom 90% of Americans have had their income remain virtually flat in real dollars, while the top few most wealthy have skyrocketed.

This is why the top 5% have increased their owner ship from half of all the wealth in the US to over three fourths during that time (the bottom 95% from half to under 25% of course).

Our policies are way out of wack and democracy and the well-being of most Americans is harmed as a result. We have to fight for democracy and a middle class.

What republicans fail to realize is that it's not the commies we have to fight, it's the people who wrap themselves in the flag who have taken over the republican party.

The "democrats are just as bad" line plays right into the hands of those crooks, but it could happen, if they get so powerful they can take over the democratic party, too.

The democrats are, of course, already affected by the need for fund-raising. But few Americans recognize the need to elect independant democrats and defeat the corruption.
Bad news, they did that more than a century ago. Both parties have been hopelessly corrupt from not long after their respective original creations.
Seconded. My American Civil War lecture back in university really opened my eyes to the history and orientation of both parties. (And even if you're not out to gain understanding, it's an interesting read.)

You can't begin to compare the democratic party of the post-civil war era and the party today. Things have changed so much that it's meaningless. FDR did have an impact...

The ignorance of the right-wing cult members about democrats is unfortunate.[/quote]

:laugh:
 

imported_Aelius

Golden Member
Apr 25, 2004
1,988
0
0
Originally posted by: HombrePequeno
Originally posted by: Aelius
Originally posted by: blackangst1
Originally posted by: Craig234
Originally posted by: blackangst1
Im not sure what the problem is here. Is it the have's and the have nots? Why does everything have to be equal? As previously mentioned, reward those who dont work hard and punish those that do? Here's the problem, and I would love to hear an alternative other than these two examples...because they wont work:

1. Put either an income cap or a net worth cap on all Americans. The problem with that is you stifle creativity, and ultimately, cause more corruption by promoting hiding of assets, moving assets overseas, etc.

2. Taxation. Again, bad idea. The ultra rich pay a huge amount of taxes already (just look at IRS numbers of collected taxes). OK lets say you raise taxes. That creates more income for the government, which in turn would create more beauracracy, and increase the size of government. The argument is made "Hey...tax them 75% and they STILL have hundreds of millions of dollars!". Yes thats true...but...it's THEIR hundreds of millions, not yours or the governments.

The lies are huge in this argument, as if hard work is the difference. Who works harder, Warren Buffet or the stockbroker who executes his trades?

What lies have I written? Come on, tell me.....

--------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------
You DO understand he manages his own account right? So in this case, Warren does.
--------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------

NO ONE IS SAYING EQUALITY, NO ONE. The issue is the *extreme* gaps.

ENOUGH of the lies for debate.

So tell me then. Whats the solution? Quit your finger pointing and offer possible solutions.

Solution #1

Shut down all Central Banks and let banks act like any other corporation. Also treat them the same.

You just saved the taxpayer 100% of all income tax collected. Every single year. In the US, on average, that is roughly 800+ billion.

All that money currently is going directly into paying off the intrest on the loan each year which sometimes tops 1+ trillion. That's not the debt. That's the intrest.

You want a robber baron? You don't have to look further than your nation's central bank.

Yes, because the situation before we had a central bank was so great. Let's go back to the days when we had bank crises every few years.

There are two words you need to learn.

Great Depression.
 

fitzov

Platinum Member
Jan 3, 2004
2,477
0
0
There are two words you need to learn--'Great Depression'.

While I agree with you, you have to keep in mind that there are two main opposing schools of thought on this: Keynes' and Freidman's. The wealthy favor the latter because it eschews social programs, hence they don't have to pay for them. For example, FDR's New Deal is termed "interventionist" because the government intervened in the economy. The assumption is that if the government hadn't intervened, then the economy would have done better; but that's one of those "empty suitcase" promises. It's like saying that if you hadn't had that back surgery then your back would be doing better by now.
 

Vic

Elite Member
Jun 12, 2001
50,415
14,307
136
Originally posted by: fitzov
There are two words you need to learn--'Great Depression'.

While I agree with you, you have to keep in mind that there are two main opposing schools of thought on this: Keynes' and Freidman's. The wealthy favor the latter because it eschews social programs, hence they don't have to pay for them. For example, FDR's New Deal is termed "interventionist" because the government intervened in the economy. The assumption is that if the government hadn't intervened, then the economy would have done better; but that's one of those "empty suitcase" promises. It's like saying that if you hadn't had that back surgery then your back would be doing better by now.

Got any statistical evidence to back up that claim there? Of course not... it's just the usual rhetoric and talking points. :roll:

Keynes or Friedman, the fact is that the Great Depression was caused by a "perfect storm" lack of confidence in the economy. Depositors panicked, stampeded on their banks, and their banks failed. Investors jumped out of windows. Investment stopped. Hiring stopped. People horded what little money they had, stopped buying products, and prices collapsed. Businesses closed. What FDR did was borrow a ton of money and force it into the economy, like a defibrillator on a heart attack patient. And even that did not work as well as hoped to restore confidence. America didn't find its confidence again until it began to win in WWII. That's the facts. Anything else is bullsh!t -- either political rhetoric or mumbo-jumbo from shaman economists.
 

Jaskalas

Lifer
Jun 23, 2004
33,590
7,651
136
Originally posted by: fitzov
Topic Title: 2% own more than half of all household wealth worldwide.

I bet this is a significantly different number if you only counted the USA.
 

fitzov

Platinum Member
Jan 3, 2004
2,477
0
0
Originally posted by: Jaskalas
Originally posted by: fitzov
Topic Title: 2% own more than half of all household wealth worldwide.

I bet this is a significantly different number if you only counted the USA.

Of course. If I remember the article on the study correctly, it said they broke it down several ways: country to country, was one of them.
 

Vic

Elite Member
Jun 12, 2001
50,415
14,307
136
Still waiting on that statistical evidence I asked for fitzo. I'm sure the New England wealthy would be quite surprised to hear that they are small government Freidmanites.
 

fitzov

Platinum Member
Jan 3, 2004
2,477
0
0
Originally posted by: Vic
Still waiting on that statistical evidence I asked for fitzo. I'm sure the New England wealthy would be quite surprised to hear that they are small government Freidmanites.

lol. It's not a controversial claim. Do you have some stats that the wealthy favor government intervention in the economy? Do you seriously think they do? Why would they?
 

Vic

Elite Member
Jun 12, 2001
50,415
14,307
136
Originally posted by: fitzov
Originally posted by: Vic
Still waiting on that statistical evidence I asked for fitzo. I'm sure the New England wealthy would be quite surprised to hear that they are small government Freidmanites.

lol. It's not a controversial claim. Do you have some stats that the wealthy favor government intervention in the economy? Do you seriously think they do? Why would they?

No, it really is a controversial claim. There are large numbers of wealthy Keynesians in America, both Republican and Democrat. You don't see a lot of wealthy people demanding a return to the gold standard. And if the wealthy don't favor government intervention in the economy, then why do they keep giving political contributions for exactly that purpose? And in case you weren't aware, except for the brief (and questionable) break of Reaganomics, we are living in Keynes' economy to this day. But aren't the rich getting richer and the poor poorer?
 

fitzov

Platinum Member
Jan 3, 2004
2,477
0
0
And if the wealthy don't favor government intervention in the economy, then why do they keep giving political contributions for exactly that purpose?

They give political contributions to candidates and representatives that are sympathetic to the idea of allowing corporations to do whatever the hell they want. It's the opposite of intervention.
 

Genx87

Lifer
Apr 8, 2002
41,095
513
126
Originally posted by: fitzov
And if the wealthy don't favor government intervention in the economy, then why do they keep giving political contributions for exactly that purpose?

They give political contributions to candidates and representatives that are sympathetic to the idea of allowing corporations to do whatever the hell they want. It's the opposite of intervention.

I think it is quite the opposite, they give to politicians to put artifical barriers to the market so they can consolidate their positions. The big companies with lots of political donations arent much different than collectivists, except in the business world.

They also spend lots of cash to bribe the senators into not cracking the whip down on them.

/shrug
 

blackllotus

Golden Member
May 30, 2005
1,875
0
0
Originally posted by: Aelius
Originally posted by: HombrePequeno
Originally posted by: Aelius
Originally posted by: blackangst1
Originally posted by: Craig234
Originally posted by: blackangst1
Im not sure what the problem is here. Is it the have's and the have nots? Why does everything have to be equal? As previously mentioned, reward those who dont work hard and punish those that do? Here's the problem, and I would love to hear an alternative other than these two examples...because they wont work:

1. Put either an income cap or a net worth cap on all Americans. The problem with that is you stifle creativity, and ultimately, cause more corruption by promoting hiding of assets, moving assets overseas, etc.

2. Taxation. Again, bad idea. The ultra rich pay a huge amount of taxes already (just look at IRS numbers of collected taxes). OK lets say you raise taxes. That creates more income for the government, which in turn would create more beauracracy, and increase the size of government. The argument is made "Hey...tax them 75% and they STILL have hundreds of millions of dollars!". Yes thats true...but...it's THEIR hundreds of millions, not yours or the governments.

The lies are huge in this argument, as if hard work is the difference. Who works harder, Warren Buffet or the stockbroker who executes his trades?

What lies have I written? Come on, tell me.....

--------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------
You DO understand he manages his own account right? So in this case, Warren does.
--------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------

NO ONE IS SAYING EQUALITY, NO ONE. The issue is the *extreme* gaps.

ENOUGH of the lies for debate.

So tell me then. Whats the solution? Quit your finger pointing and offer possible solutions.

Solution #1

Shut down all Central Banks and let banks act like any other corporation. Also treat them the same.

You just saved the taxpayer 100% of all income tax collected. Every single year. In the US, on average, that is roughly 800+ billion.

All that money currently is going directly into paying off the intrest on the loan each year which sometimes tops 1+ trillion. That's not the debt. That's the intrest.

You want a robber baron? You don't have to look further than your nation's central bank.

Yes, because the situation before we had a central bank was so great. Let's go back to the days when we had bank crises every few years.

There are two words you need to learn.

Great Depression.

A central bank is key to having soft-landings from recessions, and, to your dismay, a global bank will likely be necessary in the future.

A good article from BusinessWeek
 

Vic

Elite Member
Jun 12, 2001
50,415
14,307
136
Originally posted by: fitzov
And if the wealthy don't favor government intervention in the economy, then why do they keep giving political contributions for exactly that purpose?
They give political contributions to candidates and representatives that are sympathetic to the idea of allowing corporations to do whatever the hell they want. It's the opposite of intervention.
That's not only untrue, it's simply naive. They give to candidates and officials hoping for favorable legislation to place them above their competitors, to acquire subsidies or funding, or for protection (particularly to increase barriers to market entry via regulation). That most certainly is intervention.

What planet are you from? Clearly you've never worked in business.
 

imported_Aelius

Golden Member
Apr 25, 2004
1,988
0
0
Originally posted by: blackllotus
Originally posted by: Aelius
Originally posted by: HombrePequeno
Originally posted by: Aelius
Originally posted by: blackangst1
Originally posted by: Craig234
Originally posted by: blackangst1
Im not sure what the problem is here. Is it the have's and the have nots? Why does everything have to be equal? As previously mentioned, reward those who dont work hard and punish those that do? Here's the problem, and I would love to hear an alternative other than these two examples...because they wont work:

1. Put either an income cap or a net worth cap on all Americans. The problem with that is you stifle creativity, and ultimately, cause more corruption by promoting hiding of assets, moving assets overseas, etc.

2. Taxation. Again, bad idea. The ultra rich pay a huge amount of taxes already (just look at IRS numbers of collected taxes). OK lets say you raise taxes. That creates more income for the government, which in turn would create more beauracracy, and increase the size of government. The argument is made "Hey...tax them 75% and they STILL have hundreds of millions of dollars!". Yes thats true...but...it's THEIR hundreds of millions, not yours or the governments.

The lies are huge in this argument, as if hard work is the difference. Who works harder, Warren Buffet or the stockbroker who executes his trades?

What lies have I written? Come on, tell me.....

--------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------
You DO understand he manages his own account right? So in this case, Warren does.
--------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------

NO ONE IS SAYING EQUALITY, NO ONE. The issue is the *extreme* gaps.

ENOUGH of the lies for debate.

So tell me then. Whats the solution? Quit your finger pointing and offer possible solutions.

Solution #1

Shut down all Central Banks and let banks act like any other corporation. Also treat them the same.

You just saved the taxpayer 100% of all income tax collected. Every single year. In the US, on average, that is roughly 800+ billion.

All that money currently is going directly into paying off the intrest on the loan each year which sometimes tops 1+ trillion. That's not the debt. That's the intrest.

You want a robber baron? You don't have to look further than your nation's central bank.

Yes, because the situation before we had a central bank was so great. Let's go back to the days when we had bank crises every few years.

There are two words you need to learn.

Great Depression.

A central bank is key to having soft-landings from recessions, and, to your dismay, a global bank will likely be necessary in the future.

A good article from BusinessWeek

It's likely to be necessary only because there will be hundreds of articles printed by corpratist shills that says it is. Why will people swallow it? Simple. They claim that it offers protection, real or imagined doesnt really matter and doesn't factor into the final analysis. Only that it offers "protection".

Think of a Central Bank as a no-limit credit card for a government. Except this credit card holds your gold (the measure of a nation's currency value) supposedly as collateral on your debt (at least in the case of the US). Except you never pay off your debt. Ever. You just keep paying the intrest, or as much as you can, as your intrest hovers at a steady rate or dips a little or grows like mad (such as the US debt).

They print money with no backing. They pulled a number out of thin air. That's why the US dollar is worth less than the paper it is printed on. The actual value is 0. This if fiat currency.

"It is well enough that people of the nation do not understand our banking and monetary system, for if they did, I believe there would be a revolution before tomorrow morning." ? Henry Ford

?I sincerely believe ... that banking establishments are more dangerous than standing armies, and that the principle of spending money to be paid by posterity under the name of funding is but swindling futurity on a large scale.? - Thomas Jefferson to John Taylor, 1816

"Emitting bills of credit, or the creation of money by private corporations, is what is expressly forbidden by Article 1, Section 10 of the U.S. Constitution."++ - U.S. Supreme Court, Craig v. Missouri, 4 Peters 410.

"No state shall emit bills of credit, make any thing but gold and silver coin a tender in payment of debts, coin money---."++ - Article One, Section Ten,
United States Constitution

Fact: The Federal Reserve Act allowed, illegally, not the government, but a corporation to print money that has no backing. Value = 0

++ This quotation was compiled by Dr. Paul Hein in his book All Work and No Pay: Life Saving Lessons in Modern Money
 

Craig234

Lifer
May 1, 2006
38,548
349
126
Apparently, I have to spell out something yet again to vic, who quoted at length without comment to imply, well, something.

Since the quoted comments were my saying that you cannot make claims about the status of corruption in the democratic party today based on its post-civil-war status, and my saying that there is some risk the democratic party could be increasingly corrupted by the same forces who have corrupted the republican party (big money, corporatists), I'll address his apparent misunderstanding of them.

They are not contradictory whatsoever. The state of the party today is not determined by its status after the civil war. It might be corrupt, not corrupt, corrupt differently, etc.

If the party were to become corrupted by the right-wing being so powerful that they can get their own people elected into the democratic party as well as the republicans, that would be entirely unrelated to any status of the party following the civil war. Just becoming corrupted has nothing to do with the post-civil-war situation.
 

Vic

Elite Member
Jun 12, 2001
50,415
14,307
136
Originally posted by: Craig234
Apparently, I have to spell out something yet again to vic, who quoted at length without comment to imply, well, something.

Since the quoted comments were my saying that you cannot make claims about the status of corruption in the democratic party today based on its post-civil-war status, and my saying that there is some risk the democratic party could be increasingly corrupted by the same forces who have corrupted the republican party (big money, corporatists), I'll address his apparent misunderstanding of them.

They are not contradictory whatsoever. The state of the party today is not determined by its status after the civil war. It might be corrupt, not corrupt, corrupt differently, etc.

If the party were to become corrupted by the right-wing being so powerful that they can get their own people elected into the democratic party as well as the republicans, that would be entirely unrelated to any status of the party following the civil war. Just becoming corrupted has nothing to do with the post-civil-war situation.

You really should start a church to preach that sh!t from.
 

imported_Tango

Golden Member
Mar 8, 2005
1,623
0
0
Originally posted by: Shivetya
comparing different regions of the world is non sense in this regard.

simply put wealth in one part of the world is not remotely the same as others.

It is simply sensationalism, it looks good but anyone who thinks sees right through these storeis.

Look, wealth is party the result of productivity, the nations with the greatest wealth also have the greatest productivity per man hour. Can you encourage productivity in other areas if you just GIVE them the results without the work ? no you cannot.

A recent report in Europe pointed out that the poor in Mississippi enjoy larger homes, more "luxury items", and similar than many european countries middle class!!!! Where's the justice? See its all relative.

Plus if you read the details you notice how they had to extrapolate? These is a buzzword for "fudging the figures" ... in other words you extrapolate, manipulate, to get a desired result.

Redistribution never works, it marginalizes those who receive it and aggravates those who it is taken from.

Also, many who complain about the "disparity" always throw out the extreme examples to make their point so to discourage comparison. (ie, Paris)

Recently Hollywood is out to bash Starbucks. Apparently Starbucks is taking advantage of the poor Ethiopian farmers for coffee beans. No mention is giving that the money spent by Starbucks is more than double the incomes they would receive otherwise or that there is much done by the locals in order to be a provider to Starbucks.

Take it to our side of the ocean. Wal-mart, the big boogey man. Did you know a Democrat was recently railing against them and having a book signing at a nearby Barnes and Noble talking about how bad Wal-Mart pays its employees? Guess what, their wages at Wal-Mart for just starting out where 10-15% more than Barnes and Noble employees and their benefits better.

Wealth is there for the taking. The US wasn't always wealthy but the politics of the time and the ethich were there to make this country great. We should not be guilty of it any more than other countries have been of their gains.

Finally, most wealth starved countries are because of local politics. Are we saying its okay to intefere then? Are we?


Sorry, but you have no clue. And the reason for this is you never saw the places you are talking about and analyzed the effect of globalization on local communities abroad.

There are wonderful examples of corporations from Europe or the US starting operations in emerging countries with mutually beneficial effects. In some cases this triggered an effective emergence of the country from third world to a developing one. Great stuff.

But there are so many cases of corporations whose operations abroad destroy communities, kill people, disrupt democratization processes, destroy the local culture and interfere with the socio economic development of the country.

Look at major oil producing countries in Africa for good examples. Or commodities producing countries in South America and Africa. American, British and French oil companies consistently encouraged civil wars in Africa for the last 50 years, and let's not even start with the diamonds business in Botswana and Namibia.

You blame this to local politics. But who's financing all these dictators? And why?

You have more examples and case studies than you could possibly ask for.... start from here:

http://www.reagan.utexas.edu/archives/speeches/1983/80483a.htm

http://www.reagan.utexas.edu/archives/speeches/1986/120986a.htm

http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Mobutu_Sese_Seko

So a cruel kleptocratic tyrant who caused famine, killed thousands, and destroyed the economy of one of the richest countries in the world in terms of natural resources was called " a faithful friend of the United States" and "a voice of good sense and good will" by the president of the US. Why? Have a look at what companies had interest in operating Congo's tremendous mining operations.

Then do the same with Liberia, Cote d'Ivoire, Angola, Sierra Leone and you'll see the pattern. Big transnational corporations leveraging international politics to gain access and control to natural resources.

Travel to those places, see what Chevron. Total, Exxon or BP operations have done to local communities in Angola or Nigeria. Have a look at what De Beers is doing in Botswana:

http://news.bbc.co.uk/2/hi/africa/4480883.stm

Multinational corporations are making HUGE profits on resources they steal from the poorest among the poor, without giving anything back to the communities they rape. In the process they often encourage coups, finance civil unrest or war, bribe, corrupt and indulge in political engineering.
Who's paying the price? Again the poorest among the poor.

Who paid for Kabila's army?

http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Joseph_Kabila

Who paid for Charles Taylor's army? And why was his attorney former US attorney General Ramsey Clark?

http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Charles_Ghankay_Taylor

Why is ELF financing political campaigns in Chad and Cameroon?

http://www.cetim.ch/en/interventions_details.php?iid=136

And you could go on forever. People just don't care about what's going on in Africa. They might even donate to charities, then the next day buy products of companies whose operations overseas undermine every possible aspect of the every day life of millions and actively force people into war, starvation, unemployment and social unrest.

This thread is looking in the wrong direction. The problem is not Paris Hilton or Warren Buffet having too much money. The problem is corporation not being forced to give back part of their profits to the communities they exploit to make their riches.

Corporate Social Responsibility should not be a Public Relations issue, but an operating model, and consumers should care and actively select products from companies that behave accordingly.

This would be redistribution. You get diamonds from Botswana? Pay a decent salary, build schools, hospitals and other facilities to improve the living standards of the people whose resources you are exploiting.

But obviously they have no incentive to do so, especially since you blame all the problems on the local dictator and not on those guys who gave him an army to seize and maintain power in exchange of exploitation contracts.
 

Lonyo

Lifer
Aug 10, 2002
21,939
6
81
Originally posted by: CPA
Originally posted by: Craig234
Originally posted by: Schadenfroh
Lets kill the 2% and take their stuff!

Nice going - misrepresent the left, and avoid any real discussion of the problems caused by the right.

hmmm, so none of this is the fault of the rich democrats like Ted Turner, Warren Buffet, Paul Allen, Bill Gates?

The Warren Buffet and Bill Gates who are giving their fortunes away to help the poor people?
No, it's not really their fault.
 
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