Originally posted by: bigsmooth
What did I expect? Maybe at least something closer to the 18/25 estimated mpg. Or better yet, the Northstar V8 in the Cadillac DeVille DTS puts out 30 more horses and is rated at 18/27 mpg - in a heavier car. Or how about the 325hp V8 in the 4300+lb. BMW 745, rated at 18/26 mpg?Originally posted by: rbloedow
Originally posted by: bigsmooth
Yikes, the W8 only averaged 15 mpg even though the engine was already broken in? :Q
What's so shocking about it? It's a V8 - what did you expect?
Still think 15 mpg is acceptable in a midsize family sedan, even with 8 cylinders? I would have hoped with this new W8 technology that they could have done a little better. I admit it, I expect an automatic 8-cylinder Passat to get better gas mileage than a similar Corvette - but it doesn't.
Originally posted by: BooneRebel
The VW Passat W8 is the best entry-level luxury sedan only if you are a VW employee and are limited to choosing solely from their make. $38,000 for a Passat?!?! Are you kidding me? They excluded the BMW 3-series because it's in the 'sport' category, but why would you pay nearly double the base price of a Passat to get a V8 unless you were interested in 'sport'? For the same money, Audi will give you a much more luxurious finished car for your same $38,000. If you're willing to step outside of the Audi/VW body style, then go for a BMW 3-series.
As an American, I resent the suggestion that we believe cupholders are the most important thing in a car.I can't believe that they have a separate ratings-category for cupholders!!!! Sheesh, what's wrong with you people??? When I buy a car, I'm interested in it's drivability, performance, safety... That sort of things. Apparently americans think that cupholders are just about the most important thing in car.
Originally posted by: bigsmooth
What did I expect? Maybe at least something closer to the 18/25 estimated mpg. Or better yet, the Northstar V8 in the Cadillac DeVille DTS puts out 30 more horses and is rated at 18/27 mpg - in a heavier car. Or how about the 325hp V8 in the 4300+lb. BMW 745, rated at 18/26 mpg? Still think 15 mpg is acceptable in a midsize family sedan, even with 8 cylinders? I would have hoped with this new W8 technology that they could have done a little better. I admit it, I expect an automatic 8-cylinder Passat to get better gas mileage than a similar Corvette - but it doesn't.Originally posted by: rbloedowWhat's so shocking about it? It's a V8 - what did you expect?Originally posted by: bigsmooth Yikes, the W8 only averaged 15 mpg even though the engine was already broken in? :Q
Originally posted by: rbloedow
Originally posted by: bigsmooth
What did I expect? Maybe at least something closer to the 18/25 estimated mpg. Or better yet, the Northstar V8 in the Cadillac DeVille DTS puts out 30 more horses and is rated at 18/27 mpg - in a heavier car. Or how about the 325hp V8 in the 4300+lb. BMW 745, rated at 18/26 mpg? Still think 15 mpg is acceptable in a midsize family sedan, even with 8 cylinders? I would have hoped with this new W8 technology that they could have done a little better. I admit it, I expect an automatic 8-cylinder Passat to get better gas mileage than a similar Corvette - but it doesn't.Originally posted by: rbloedowWhat's so shocking about it? It's a V8 - what did you expect?Originally posted by: bigsmooth Yikes, the W8 only averaged 15 mpg even though the engine was already broken in? :Q
<a class=ftalternatingbarlinklarge href="http://www.edmunds.com/reviews/roadtests/roadtest/44088/article.html" target=blank>Wow, edmunds also got 15mpg on the Deville too!</A>
<a class=ftalternatingbarlinklarge href="http://www.edmunds.com/reviews/longterm/articles/62788/article.html" target=blank>They also got 14.5 mpg on the BMW 745</A>
So, do you think I still think 15mpg is acceptable?
First off, the ES300 is rated at 29 MPG on the highway and 21 MPG in the city. 22 MPG during the road test is approproate. Secondly, the 6.5 second time is for the automatic:15 mpg sounds about normal for this car in city/mixed driving. on the other hand they say its the observed fuel economy. If that is true they did drive the Infinity, Lexus; Saab in a very different way - cause there is no way these get 22mpg maybe when highway driving only.... and on highway driving the W8 should be around 20-21 mpg too
edit: acceleration: just checked www.volkswagen.de the 0-60 time of 7.2s is actually pretty good:
according to Volkswagen: 0-60(62.5) manual: 6.5s
Automatic: 7.8s
The W8 accelerated with ease and, typical of all Volkswagens, was very comfortable at speed. A quick check of the technical specifications revealed a 3.5 final drive ratio for US cars, which is up from the 2.9 of the European vehicles. I don't doubt this car will do the claimed 6.5-second 0-60 mph run.
Tiptronic seems to mate well with the W8. This engine is begging for the 6 speed manual transmission though and I can't wait to hit some curves in a W8 equipped with the 17-inch wheel/tire combo and sport suspension because the 16-inch Continental tires were definitely the weak point in an otherwise composed chassis.
He's not comparing the cars, he's comparing the engines...that seems apples-to-apples to meThose are larger vehicles with more horsepower. You shouldn't EVEN be comparing the two
Originally posted by: geno
He's not comparing the cars, he's comparing the engines...that seems apples-to-apples to meThose are larger vehicles with more horsepower. You shouldn't EVEN be comparing the two
No, it's NOT apples to apples. You can't isolate the engine from the car with gas mileage b/c you have to take into account the curb weight of the car as well.
W8 = 3,907
Deville = 4,049
745 = 4,376
.
No. It shouldn't get the *same* milage, it should get much better milage due to the facts.If you think that a 3,900 lb vehicle with a smaller, less powerful engine should be getting the same gas mileage as larger, more powerful luxoboats, then more power to you
Exactly! The Passat is marketed as a family sedan - it should get MORE mpg than a luxo-boat!Originally posted by: NFS4
Originally posted by: geno
He's not comparing the cars, he's comparing the engines...that seems apples-to-apples to meThose are larger vehicles with more horsepower. You shouldn't EVEN be comparing the two
No, it's NOT apples to apples. You can't isolate the engine from the car with gas mileage b/c you have to take into account the curb weight of the car as well.
W8 = 3,907
Deville = 4,049
745 = 4,376
If you think that a 3,900 lb vehicle with a smaller, less powerful engine should be getting the same gas mileage as larger, more powerful luxoboats, then more power to you.
In a lighter vehicle with significantly less horsepower, NO (AWD or not).Wow, edmunds also got 15mpg on the Deville too!
They also got 14.5 mpg on the BMW 745
So, do you think I still think 15mpg is acceptable?
Senior Road Test Editor Brent Romans says:
I have to be honest. Before this test, I had taken the role of pundit and dispensed opinion to my car enthusiast friends that there was little reason to buy a Passat W8. Why would anyone want to spend $38,000 for a car when a nearly-as-good version of the same thing is available for $27,000? The Passat W8 was going to be a nose-heavy sled and not worth the money, I said. Of course, I hadn't driven the car or even sat in it (Ah, the joys of being a critic!). Now I've driven it. Hmm, what does crow taste like, Mr. Romans? All-around, I felt this was the best car in the test. Its interior ? while not really upgraded over the regular Passat's ? is still quite nice. The backseat is comfortable. It's fast. And, surprisingly, it isn't all that bad when cornering. Undistinguished styling is the only thing left for me to complain about. If you see this as an advantage, well, it would seem you've found the best car in this comparison test.
Originally posted by: Amused
NFS4,
This guy felt just like you do... until he drove it:
Senior Road Test Editor Brent Romans says:
I have to be honest. Before this test, I had taken the role of pundit and dispensed opinion to my car enthusiast friends that there was little reason to buy a Passat W8. Why would anyone want to spend $38,000 for a car when a nearly-as-good version of the same thing is available for $27,000? The Passat W8 was going to be a nose-heavy sled and not worth the money, I said. Of course, I hadn't driven the car or even sat in it (Ah, the joys of being a critic!). Now I've driven it. Hmm, what does crow taste like, Mr. Romans? All-around, I felt this was the best car in the test. Its interior ? while not really upgraded over the regular Passat's ? is still quite nice. The backseat is comfortable. It's fast. And, surprisingly, it isn't all that bad when cornering. Undistinguished styling is the only thing left for me to complain about. If you see this as an advantage, well, it would seem you've found the best car in this comparison test.
He had all the same misgivings you did. I guess you just have to drive it to understand.
Road Test Editor John DiPietro says:
Does a Passat, good a car as it is, belong in the near-$40,000 game? That was the question that loomed largest for me in this comparo. Yeah, it's got a V?excuse me, W8 engine and the cabin is nearly as nice as an Audi's. But I couldn't help thinking a much less expensive Passat model, even a GLS 1.8T with leather and a moonroof, is nearly as good as this too-heavy W8 version. The engine's output of 270 horsepower is impressive, but it's got to lug around a car that weighs nearly as much as a Caddy Deville. Like most of the participants in this test, I think highly of the Passat W8, as it has luxury and refinement in spades. But when you can get 90 percent of this car's goodness at 70 percent of the price by going with that loaded GLS, it's evident that moving up to the top Passat is a lesson in diminishing returns.
Road Test Editor Liz Kim says:
The Volkswagen Passat W8 presents a bit of a conundrum. The Passat's one of our very favorite sedans, winning almost every comparison test it's competed in, winning our pick as the Editors' Most Wanted and generally being one of the most beloved members of our long-term fleet. However, when you put it up against the class with which it competes in W8 form, it loses its allure somewhat. Don't get me wrong, it's still a great vehicle, but most of the things that make it great are also available in a version that costs more than $10,000 less than the W8 does. The interior's peachy, the power is smooth and ready for action, and it's a pleasure to drive, it's just that you get the niggling feeling you could have paid less for the car. That negates the whole point of a luxury vehicle, doesn't it?
Originally posted by: NFS4
Originally posted by: Amused
NFS4,
This guy felt just like you do... until he drove it:
Senior Road Test Editor Brent Romans says:
I have to be honest. Before this test, I had taken the role of pundit and dispensed opinion to my car enthusiast friends that there was little reason to buy a Passat W8. Why would anyone want to spend $38,000 for a car when a nearly-as-good version of the same thing is available for $27,000? The Passat W8 was going to be a nose-heavy sled and not worth the money, I said. Of course, I hadn't driven the car or even sat in it (Ah, the joys of being a critic!). Now I've driven it. Hmm, what does crow taste like, Mr. Romans? All-around, I felt this was the best car in the test. Its interior ? while not really upgraded over the regular Passat's ? is still quite nice. The backseat is comfortable. It's fast. And, surprisingly, it isn't all that bad when cornering. Undistinguished styling is the only thing left for me to complain about. If you see this as an advantage, well, it would seem you've found the best car in this comparison test.
He had all the same misgivings you did. I guess you just have to drive it to understand.
Considering that the testers had more BAD to say about the car then good, I'll stick to my opinion. The actual part on the W8 sound more like a problem list with only the last paragraph actually highlighting anything good with the car.
-During instrumented testing, the Passat ran a 7.2-second 0-60 and a 15.5 quarter-mile ? slightly disappointing for any enthusiast who took note of Volkswagen's claim of 6.5 seconds for 0-60 mph.
- Still, a couple of editors felt the W8 lacked the immediate off-the-line thrust expected of an eight-cylinder engine, and a third found the throttle a bit touchy when pulling away from stoplights.
- The only issue that might cause concern is fuel economy. With the standard five-speed automatic (a six-speed manual will be available for 2003), mileage is rated at a respectable 18 mpg city/25 mpg highway. However, after putting over 600 miles (a decent portion of which were highway miles) on a test vehicle that was well past the break-in period, we couldn't do better than 15 mpg.
- However, several felt it was slow to come up with downshifts when driven aggressively and resorted to using the Tiptronic automanual mode to speed things up. But Tiptronic didn't offer the same positive shift feel as the 300M's Autostick.
- The W8 was the only car in the group wearing a full set of vented disc brakes (supplemented by ABS and BrakeAssist), yet its braking performance was a contentious issue among editors. Several editors were satisfied with the pedal's progressive feel and the car's acceptable stopping distances, but others were annoyed by a certain touchiness in the pedal's initial travel and obvious nose dive under harder braking. We also noted plenty of squealing as the brakes got hot during our test loops. The Passat's best 60-0 braking distance was 126 feet, which certainly isn't horrible for a vehicle of its weight, but one might hope for a more exceptional number from a car that costs $38,000.
- Yet in spite of the sedan's fairly balanced, responsive feel when pushed hard, most editors felt this most expensive of Passats should have been fitted with a firmer version of the standard front multilink/rear double-wishbone suspension to better control body movement around turns.
- it didn't have a full set of one-touch up-down windows, an in-dash CD changer, dual-zone climate control or power lumbar (nor is there a navigation system on the options list, in the U.S.).
- Most editors rated the ensemble slightly below that of the Lexus, citing wood trim that wasn't as lovely or as generously applied, and leather that wasn't quite as soft.
- Interior controls were a mixed lot. VW continues to use its Climatronic automatic climate control system, which forces drivers to negotiate a set of small, flat, identically sized and shaped buttons while looking at a display mounted low in the dash. Compared with the other offerings, this system could definitely stand improvement.
- Visibility is limited somewhat by the presence of three rear headrests and rather small side mirrors. Only the interior mirror is auto-dimming.
- The W8 had the smallest backseat of the group
- Although the Passat's trunk doesn't look small, the added bulk of the 4Motion mechanicals reduces its capacity to 10 cubic feet (front-drive Passats have 15 cubes), by far the smallest of the group, and allows only a temporary-size spare tire under the trunk floor.
- Build quality issues were minor in our W8 test car. Inside, editors noted a misaligned glovebox, a slightly skewed airbag cover, slightly loose A-pillar trim and some fraying where the C-pillars met the headliner. We also noted an annoying rattle from the driver's side of the dash. On the outside of the car, all of the panels fit just right with tight gap tolerances.
How this car won is BEYOND me.
Anyway, that ONE editor said he liked it. The other two basically said that it wasn't worth it.
Road Test Editor John DiPietro says:
Does a Passat, good a car as it is, belong in the near-$40,000 game? That was the question that loomed largest for me in this comparo. Yeah, it's got a V?excuse me, W8 engine and the cabin is nearly as nice as an Audi's. But I couldn't help thinking a much less expensive Passat model, even a GLS 1.8T with leather and a moonroof, is nearly as good as this too-heavy W8 version. The engine's output of 270 horsepower is impressive, but it's got to lug around a car that weighs nearly as much as a Caddy Deville. Like most of the participants in this test, I think highly of the Passat W8, as it has luxury and refinement in spades. But when you can get 90 percent of this car's goodness at 70 percent of the price by going with that loaded GLS, it's evident that moving up to the top Passat is a lesson in diminishing returns.
Road Test Editor Liz Kim says:
The Volkswagen Passat W8 presents a bit of a conundrum. The Passat's one of our very favorite sedans, winning almost every comparison test it's competed in, winning our pick as the Editors' Most Wanted and generally being one of the most beloved members of our long-term fleet. However, when you put it up against the class with which it competes in W8 form, it loses its allure somewhat. Don't get me wrong, it's still a great vehicle, but most of the things that make it great are also available in a version that costs more than $10,000 less than the W8 does. The interior's peachy, the power is smooth and ready for action, and it's a pleasure to drive, it's just that you get the niggling feeling you could have paid less for the car. That negates the whole point of a luxury vehicle, doesn't it?
Originally posted by: vi_edit
I never go by edmunds milage numbers. I swear those guys have the accelerator superglued to the floorboard.
That all looks a lot like all the other reports, NSF4. Read the one for the second place winners. I see just as many critiques in there as well.
And their main problem is that you can get a car much like it for much less.
Well, you can get the SAME damn car as an ES300 or I35 with the SAME damn engines for much less as well.
Here's the rub: VW's Passat has had a luxury interior all along, they just added a luxury engine.
Nissan and Toyota just took a family sedan, and added a luxury interior to it and changed very little else.
What's the diff?
First, considering that the W8 was the "winner" of this competition, I wouldn't expect it to have a laundry list of issues to present as compared to the other vehicles in the test. I can understand some issues with the 2 - 5 place finishers, but not this many for a FIRST place finish.
The ES300 is SUBSTANTIALLY different from the Camry in suspension tuning, engine tuning (210 HP vs 193), exterior styling, interior design, etc.
The I35 is less different from the Maxima, but moreso than the W8 is to regular Passats.