2003 Pontiac Sunfire- brace yourself...

[dethman]

ahhh...american cars...

 

[Squisher]

Originally posted by: NightFlyerGTI

Originally posted by: NFS4

Originally posted by: Ultima

Originally posted by: NightFlyerGTI
Did anyone catch the huge gap inbetween the hood and grille? Anyone care to wager a bet? I'm putting it at .75".

lmao. who gives a crap about gaps? Soon people will be nitpicking about the texture of the door seams or crap like that.

overall looks matter more - in this case the new sunfire loses (IMO)

Wide and uneven panel gaps are evidence of poor build quality and low quality tolerances...a hallmark of GM cars.

^

Of the 16 segments included in the study, Toyota and Lexus models lead nine segments, the most earned by a corporation in 2002. General Motors Corporation is the best-performing domestic manufacturer in the study, with four models earning top rankings, including the competitive premium midsize car segment. Ford Motor Company, which includes Mazda, tops three segments.

as per J. D. Powers Ahem!

 

[Shantanu]

Also, just b/c GM may sell more doesn't mean that they make more money off them. Honda and Toyota make more per car off their Civic and Corolla b/c they don't have to discount them at all. GM has to discount the hell out of the Cavalier/Sunbird for them to actually sell which cuts into their bottom line.

What the fvck does that have to do with anything?

GM stays in the compact business for 2 reasons. Both are political. The first is to conform with CAFE requirements. Every Cavalier/Sunfire sold with $1,000 loss allows GM to sell a Hummer H2, Chevrolet Suburban, or Cadillac Escalade with $15,000 profit intact. The second is to keep the UAW happy by not firing all the workers the at the troubled Lordstown, OH plant. Also, the true market value (according to Edmunds) on 2002 Pontiac Sunfires/Chevrolet Cavaliers is $15,000, whereas it's $13,000 on 2002 Toyota Corollas.

As for all this chest beating regarding the alleged market success of compact imports, given that: GM really doesn't give a sh|t about what people of think of it's subcompacts, so long as they buy enough to keep the Lordstown plant running and offset the average MPG of Tahoes and such, don't you think it's rather sad that GM's small cars still outsell those of Toyota, Honda, and the rest of the sushi mobile brands (to whom this represents their bread and butter) and even the much talked about Ford Focus, by a comfortable margin?

 

[andylawcc]

Lmao Shantu, sushi mobile

 

[Vette73]

Originally posted by: Shantanu

Also, just b/c GM may sell more doesn't mean that they make more money off them. Honda and Toyota make more per car off their Civic and Corolla b/c they don't have to discount them at all. GM has to discount the hell out of the Cavalier/Sunbird for them to actually sell which cuts into their bottom line.

What the fvck does that have to do with anything?

GM stays in the compact business for 2 reasons. Both are political. The first is to conform with CAFE requirements. Every Cavalier/Sunfire sold with $1,000 loss allows GM to sell a Hummer H2, Chevrolet Suburban, or Cadillac Escalade with $15,000 profit intact. The second is to keep the UAW happy by not firing all the workers the at the troubled Lordstown, OH plant. Also, the true market value (according to Edmunds) on 2002 Pontiac Sunfires/Chevrolet Cavaliers is $15,000, whereas it's $13,000 on 2002 Toyota Corollas.

As for all this chest beating regarding the alleged market success of compact imports, given that: GM really doesn't give a sh|t about what people of think of it's subcompacts, so long as they buy enough to keep the Lordstown plant running and offset the average MPG of Tahoes and such, don't you think it's rather sad that GM's small cars still outsell those of Toyota, Honda, and the rest of the sushi mobile brands (to whom this represents their bread and butter) and even the much talked about Ford Focus, by a comfortable margin?

All true.
GM makes most of its Auto money from, Drum roll please..dadaddadadadadadadada... FULL SIZE V-8 TRUCKS!!!!!!
Why won't GM put a Big block in a Corvette, GM has stated they will not pay the gas guzzler tax on one of their American cars. Hense the gas milage thing again.

And this is the last line for these cars. They are going to be redone, Lutz style. I think Lutz has little to do with these. The next ones will have his mark on them. See the new Pontiac 2 seater.

 

[tcsenter]

The second is to keep the UAW happy by not firing all the workers the at the troubled Lordstown, OH plant.

heh...among a couple other militant UAW strong-holds where the average hourly employee is only nominally more productive than the dead.

 

[NFS4]

Originally posted by: Shantanu

Also, just b/c GM may sell more doesn't mean that they make more money off them. Honda and Toyota make more per car off their Civic and Corolla b/c they don't have to discount them at all. GM has to discount the hell out of the Cavalier/Sunbird for them to actually sell which cuts into their bottom line.

What the fvck does that have to do with anything?

GM stays in the compact business for 2 reasons. Both are political. The first is to conform with CAFE requirements. Every Cavalier/Sunfire sold with $1,000 loss allows GM to sell a Hummer H2, Chevrolet Suburban, or Cadillac Escalade with $15,000 profit intact. The second is to keep the UAW happy by not firing all the workers the at the troubled Lordstown, OH plant. Also, the true market value (according to Edmunds) on 2002 Pontiac Sunfires/Chevrolet Cavaliers is $15,000, whereas it's $13,000 on 2002 Toyota Corollas.

As for all this chest beating regarding the alleged market success of compact imports, given that: GM really doesn't give a sh|t about what people of think of it's subcompacts, so long as they buy enough to keep the Lordstown plant running and offset the average MPG of Tahoes and such, don't you think it's rather sad that GM's small cars still outsell those of Toyota, Honda, and the rest of the sushi mobile brands (to whom this represents their bread and butter) and even the much talked about Ford Focus, by a comfortable margin?

Sales through August 2002

Chevy Cavalier 181,175

Pontiac Sunfire 51,893

Saturn S-Series 77,274

Ford Focus 164,036

Toyota Corolla 168,561
Toyota Echo 21,505
Toyota Prius 13,216

Honda Civic 216,128

Nissan Sentra 74,967

Now what's all this sh!t you've been talking??? The Civic is STILL the best selling compact.

 

[Eli]

Originally posted by: Shantanu
Hey, it's not anywhere near as ugly as this thing.

FYI, Pontiac Sunfire sales were up 20% last month. Pontiac knows their customer, and this is what their customer likes. For those that don't like this, GM also offers the Cavalier, the Saturn S-series, and - later on this year - 1 or 2 small Daewoos sold under the "Suzuki" brand. For those that don't like any of GM's compacts, I don't think they care, because this not a core part of their business strategy. Never has been; never will be. That said, GM still sells more compacts than anyone else.

This model will only last 2 years, as GM is putting out a new model in 2005 and investing $400 million to retool the plant in the meantime.

Did anyone catch the huge gap inbetween the hood and grille? Anyone care to wager a bet? I'm putting it at .75".

I see no unusual gap. Looks fine to me. Wood you rather the front end be welded shut so that you can't open the hood?

You've got to be kidding.. As NSF4 so eloquently said it, the Corolla looks 10x better than that hunk of American pot metal.

Up 20%? So does that mean they sold 100 cars instead of 80?

 

[NFS4]

Originally posted by: Eli

Originally posted by: Shantanu
Hey, it's not anywhere near as ugly as this thing.

FYI, Pontiac Sunfire sales were up 20% last month. Pontiac knows their customer, and this is what their customer likes. For those that don't like this, GM also offers the Cavalier, the Saturn S-series, and - later on this year - 1 or 2 small Daewoos sold under the "Suzuki" brand. For those that don't like any of GM's compacts, I don't think they care, because this not a core part of their business strategy. Never has been; never will be. That said, GM still sells more compacts than anyone else.

This model will only last 2 years, as GM is putting out a new model in 2005 and investing $400 million to retool the plant in the meantime.

Did anyone catch the huge gap inbetween the hood and grille? Anyone care to wager a bet? I'm putting it at .75".

I see no unusual gap. Looks fine to me. Wood you rather the front end be welded shut so that you can't open the hood?

You've got to be kidding.. As NSF4 so eloquently said it, the Corolla looks 10x better than that hunk of American pot metal.

Up 20%? So does that mean they sold 100 cars instead of 80?

Sales for the Sunbird this year:

August 2001 -- 4,489
August 2002 -- 6,047

But sales are still down overall compared to last year for the POS:

2001 through August -- 52,817
2002 through August -- 51,893

 

[Evadman]

Up 20%? So does that mean they sold 100 cars instead of 80?

You mean 96

And yes, Pontiac designers need a beatdown.

 

[Vette73]

Originally posted by: NFS4

Originally posted by: Shantanu

Also, just b/c GM may sell more doesn't mean that they make more money off them. Honda and Toyota make more per car off their Civic and Corolla b/c they don't have to discount them at all. GM has to discount the hell out of the Cavalier/Sunbird for them to actually sell which cuts into their bottom line.

What the fvck does that have to do with anything?

GM stays in the compact business for 2 reasons. Both are political. The first is to conform with CAFE requirements. Every Cavalier/Sunfire sold with $1,000 loss allows GM to sell a Hummer H2, Chevrolet Suburban, or Cadillac Escalade with $15,000 profit intact. The second is to keep the UAW happy by not firing all the workers the at the troubled Lordstown, OH plant. Also, the true market value (according to Edmunds) on 2002 Pontiac Sunfires/Chevrolet Cavaliers is $15,000, whereas it's $13,000 on 2002 Toyota Corollas.

As for all this chest beating regarding the alleged market success of compact imports, given that: GM really doesn't give a sh|t about what people of think of it's subcompacts, so long as they buy enough to keep the Lordstown plant running and offset the average MPG of Tahoes and such, don't you think it's rather sad that GM's small cars still outsell those of Toyota, Honda, and the rest of the sushi mobile brands (to whom this represents their bread and butter) and even the much talked about Ford Focus, by a comfortable margin?

Sales through August 2002

Chevy Cavalier 181,175

Pontiac Sunfire 51,893

Saturn S-Series 77,274

Ford Focus 164,036

Toyota Corolla 168,561
Toyota Echo 21,505
Toyota Prius 13,216

Honda Civic 216,128

Nissan Sentra 74,967

Now what's all this sh!t you've been talking??? The Civic is STILL the best selling compact.

.


If you only look at names then yes. BUT the Cav. and the Sunfire are the SAME car. Very little difference. So add their numbers up and they beat the Civic. Their is no other cheap almost 100% same car with a different name for the Civic. Yes there is a Acura, but it has a differnt motor and is a almost totally different car, so it does not count. But I can pull just about ANY part from a Cav. and put it on a Sun., and vis versa.

 

[Eli]

Originally posted by: NFS4

Originally posted by: Eli

Originally posted by: Shantanu
Hey, it's not anywhere near as ugly as this thing.

FYI, Pontiac Sunfire sales were up 20% last month. Pontiac knows their customer, and this is what their customer likes. For those that don't like this, GM also offers the Cavalier, the Saturn S-series, and - later on this year - 1 or 2 small Daewoos sold under the "Suzuki" brand. For those that don't like any of GM's compacts, I don't think they care, because this not a core part of their business strategy. Never has been; never will be. That said, GM still sells more compacts than anyone else.

This model will only last 2 years, as GM is putting out a new model in 2005 and investing $400 million to retool the plant in the meantime.

Did anyone catch the huge gap inbetween the hood and grille? Anyone care to wager a bet? I'm putting it at .75".

I see no unusual gap. Looks fine to me. Wood you rather the front end be welded shut so that you can't open the hood?

You've got to be kidding.. As NSF4 so eloquently said it, the Corolla looks 10x better than that hunk of American pot metal.

Up 20%? So does that mean they sold 100 cars instead of 80?

Sales for the Sunbird this year:

August 2001 -- 4,489
August 2002 -- 6,047

But sales are still down overall compared to last year for the POS:

2001 through August -- 52,817
2002 through August -- 51,893

It amazes me everytime I see car sales numbers. Are we ever going to hit a point where just about everybody has a new car, and there just isn't a need for the average consumer to go out and buy a new one? Kinda like what happened with the computer industry.. Most people are satisifed with their current computer, and don't need a 100 ziggahertz of processing power... lol

 

[NFS4]

Originally posted by: Marlin1975

Originally posted by: NFS4

Originally posted by: Shantanu

Also, just b/c GM may sell more doesn't mean that they make more money off them. Honda and Toyota make more per car off their Civic and Corolla b/c they don't have to discount them at all. GM has to discount the hell out of the Cavalier/Sunbird for them to actually sell which cuts into their bottom line.

What the fvck does that have to do with anything?

GM stays in the compact business for 2 reasons. Both are political. The first is to conform with CAFE requirements. Every Cavalier/Sunfire sold with $1,000 loss allows GM to sell a Hummer H2, Chevrolet Suburban, or Cadillac Escalade with $15,000 profit intact. The second is to keep the UAW happy by not firing all the workers the at the troubled Lordstown, OH plant. Also, the true market value (according to Edmunds) on 2002 Pontiac Sunfires/Chevrolet Cavaliers is $15,000, whereas it's $13,000 on 2002 Toyota Corollas.

As for all this chest beating regarding the alleged market success of compact imports, given that: GM really doesn't give a sh|t about what people of think of it's subcompacts, so long as they buy enough to keep the Lordstown plant running and offset the average MPG of Tahoes and such, don't you think it's rather sad that GM's small cars still outsell those of Toyota, Honda, and the rest of the sushi mobile brands (to whom this represents their bread and butter) and even the much talked about Ford Focus, by a comfortable margin?

Sales through August 2002

Chevy Cavalier 181,175

Pontiac Sunfire 51,893

Saturn S-Series 77,274

Ford Focus 164,036

Toyota Corolla 168,561
Toyota Echo 21,505
Toyota Prius 13,216

Honda Civic 216,128

Nissan Sentra 74,967

Now what's all this sh!t you've been talking??? The Civic is STILL the best selling compact.

.


If you only look at names then yes. BUT the Cav. and the Sunfire are the SAME car. Very little difference. So add their numbers up and they beat the Civic. Their is no other cheap almost 100% same car with a different name for the Civic. Yes there is a Acura, but it has a differnt motor and is a almost totally different car, so it does not count. But I can pull just about ANY part from a Cav. and put it on a Sun., and vis versa.

Typical GM brand engineering At least the Japanese differentiate their stuff ALOT better. Regardless, the sunfire and cavalier are TWO different cars just like the Taurus/Sable, Camry/ES300/Avalon, RX300/Highlander, Concorde/Intrepid even though the cars may share a common platform. If they were the exact same, they'd be counted as such.

 

[BatmanNate]

I wouldn't say all of GM's current lineup is hideous. The Trans AM and the Monte Carlo SS as nice looking cars, IMHO.

 

[Vette73]

Originally posted by: BatmanNate
I wouldn't say all of GM's current lineup is hideous. The Trans AM and the Monte Carlo SS as nice looking cars, IMHO.

Last year for the T-A

And I like the Monte Carlo, but what is up with its fat A_S look. If they would fix the rear and the lower side molding I think it would look better. Heck I liked the last MC better than this one.

But being a Mechanic for about 10 years now. I can say GM makes the best ALL ROUND cars/trucks. When I first worked on cars I didn't car about the GM vs Ford, or American vs Jap. But I have been a GM fan for many years now. And they only seem to be getting better. I am glad I was to young to drive the the late 70's to Mid 80's. But my 1975 Monza that is a whole nother story

 

[CraigRT]

Yes they are definitely absolutely disgusting.. along with 90% of GM's other cars. I have no idea why cars that are so crap sell so well..
the new Cavalier is even worse... it looks like someone yak'd on the floor and put a chevy badge on it. :disgust:

 

[Shantanu]

Sales through August 2002

Chevy Cavalier 181,175
Pontiac Sunfire 51,893
Saturn S-Series 77,274

Ford Focus 164,036

Toyota Corolla 168,561
Toyota Echo 21,505
Toyota Prius 13,216
Honda Civic 216,128
Nissan Sentra 74,967

Now what's all this sh!t you've been talking??? The Civic is STILL the best selling compact.

I said total sales. Same car, sold under different names, get it? Do the math GM charges more money for its compacts (*after discounts*), and even though the much cheaper import competition is allegedly better, they're not able to outsell GM. Do I really have to draw out supply and demand curves here?

NFS4: I don't think I've met someone who has wasted so much of his time trying to bring down American auto companies by b|tching about their products on the internet (usually without any real substance) as yourself. Just curious, but do you go to outdoor Christian Revivals, high school football games, the occasional Klan rally, and other popular Southern pastimes to show off your rice burner to rednecks? I'd imagine that must have some humorous consequeces. Do enlighten us.

 

[MorphineChild]

Originally posted by: Hayabusarider
I vote for the '66 GTO

That is 10 times the car the Sunfire will ever be.

That is a putdown for the 66 goat. Heck the '74 GTO is 10 times the sunfire! The 66 goat and a sunfire cannot even be in the same comparison.... there is no comparison, one of them is a great legend and will live on forever, the other rivals a pinto, gremlin, chevette.........

 

[NFS4]

Originally posted by: Shantanu

Sales through August 2002

Chevy Cavalier 181,175
Pontiac Sunfire 51,893
Saturn S-Series 77,274

Ford Focus 164,036

Toyota Corolla 168,561
Toyota Echo 21,505
Toyota Prius 13,216
Honda Civic 216,128
Nissan Sentra 74,967

Now what's all this sh!t you've been talking??? The Civic is STILL the best selling compact.

I said total sales. Same car, sold under different names, get it? Do the math GM charges more money for its compacts (*after discounts*), and even though the much cheaper import competition is allegedly better, they're not able to outsell GM. Do I really have to draw out supply and demand curves here?

NFS4: I don't think I've met someone who has wasted so much of his time trying to bring down American auto companies by b|tching about their products on the internet (usually without any real substance) as yourself. Just curious, but do you go to outdoor Christian Revivals, high school football games, the occasional Klan rally, and other popular Southern pastimes to show off your rice burner to rednecks? I'd imagine that must have some humorous consequeces. Do enlighten us.

You call me anti-american when it comes to cars yet you call Japanese cars Sushi cars or whatever the crap you call them. The truth is, the Cavalier and Sunfire are crap cars built on an aging platform that should have been killed years ago. Their interiors are subpar, the engines are thrashy and unrefined, and just b/c they offset the MPG of larger sport-utes doesn't mean that they have to be built like crap. The Japanese don't build crappy econoboxes, that's for sure.

And it WAS Toyota that took top spots in 9 out of 16 categories at JD Power.

As for calling me an American car basher, I call them as I see 'em. There are some American vehicles I like (Explorer, Ram, Dakota, Durango, Corvette, Focus [even with all the recalls], Intrigue, Alero, PT Cruiser, Liberty, Grand Cherokee, and a few others). The rest of them just have no appeal whatsoever to me. So you are dead wrong with your assesment that I bash all American cars.

Also, since the Cavalier and Sunfire don't share body panels, interiors, or wheels, I say that we should lump all of the Camry platforms together and call them one car as you do with the Cavalier and Sunfire

OK guys, let's bring in the whole Camry clan...Uncle Camry, Aunt Avalon, Aunt Solara, Uncle Sienna, Cousin RX300, Cousin Highlander, and Cousin ES300 Afterall, they do share the same engine, transmission, platform, suspension design, and unibody structure.

 

[DougK62]

It's pathetic how so many people just insist on ribbing American cars.

News flash: This isn't the late 80s/early 90s anymore. American cars are made every bit as good as a foreign car. You all just buy into the bull that the foreign makers push on you. Foreign cars USED to be more reliable and better built - you can't make the same argument today. The saddest argument is the "panel gap" one. Anyone who believes this obviously hasn't even seen a semi-recent GM car - either that or they're a foreign car fanboy. I can go out to my garage right now and measure every panel on my 96 Beretta and then take two steps to the left and measure every panel gap on a 2002 Camry. There is no significant difference - and this from a Chevy car that dates it's panels back to 1987!

I like good cars - no matter the make. Don't fall prey to being a fanboy. Just because you don't LIKE the styling of a car, it doesn't mean it sucks. Just because you don't LIKE the interior of a car, it doesn't mean it sucks. Just because you don't LIKE the drivetrain of a car, it doesn't mean it sucks.

 

[NFS4]

I like good cars - no matter the make. Don't fall prey to being a fanboy. Just because you don't LIKE the styling of a car, it doesn't mean it sucks. Just because you don't LIKE the interior of a car, it doesn't mean it sucks. Just because you don't LIKE the drivetrain of a car, it doesn't mean it sucks.

Well, if the interior is cheap and poorly built, the exterior looks like crap (verified by 95% of the people in here), and the drivetrain is not as refined or smooth as the competition, there isn't much to save it IMHO other than the price which is why rental agencies and fleets pick them up.

 

[DougK62]

Originally posted by: NFS4

You call me anti-american when it comes to cars yet you call Japanese cars Sushi cars or whatever the crap you call them. The truth is, the Cavalier and Sunfire are crap cars built on an aging platform that should have been killed years ago. Their interiors are subpar, the engines are thrashy and unrefined, and just b/c they offset the MPG of larger sport-utes doesn't mean that they have to be built like crap. The Japanese don't build crappy econoboxes, that's for sure.

Typical fanboy response.

Go drive a new Cavalier with the only engine they come with - the 2.2 Ecotec. It is much more refined than the buzzy little Civic engine. Not to say that the Civic engine isn't nice, but it's pretty noisy. The Ecotec is mated to a superb Getrag transmission, makes more power than the Civic, and is MUCH quieter and well-mannered. Take a test drive - I dare you

 

[NFS4]

Originally posted by: DougK62

Originally posted by: NFS4

You call me anti-american when it comes to cars yet you call Japanese cars Sushi cars or whatever the crap you call them. The truth is, the Cavalier and Sunfire are crap cars built on an aging platform that should have been killed years ago. Their interiors are subpar, the engines are thrashy and unrefined, and just b/c they offset the MPG of larger sport-utes doesn't mean that they have to be built like crap. The Japanese don't build crappy econoboxes, that's for sure.

Typical fanboy response.

Go drive a new Cavalier with the only engine they come with - the 2.2 Ecotec. It is much more refined than the buzzy little Civic engine. Not to say that the Civic engine isn't nice, but it's pretty noisy. The Ecotec is mated to a superb Getrag transmission, makes more power than the Civic, and is MUCH quieter and well-mannered. Take a test drive - I dare you

The last Civic I drove was a 2001 model and it was not buzzy or loud. The last Cavalier that I was in was a '99 model. It was quite harsh in comparison...even louder than the 2.4 liter I4 in my '95 Camry LE.

 

[Ryan]

Originally posted by: DougK62
It's pathetic how so many people just insist on ribbing American cars. News flash: This isn't the late 80s/early 90s anymore. American cars are made every bit as good as a foreign car. You all just buy into the bull that the foreign makers push on you. Foreign cars USED to be more reliable and better built - you can't make the same argument today. The saddest argument is the "panel gap" one. Anyone who believes this obviously hasn't even seen a semi-recent GM car - either that or they're a foreign car fanboy. I can go out to my garage right now and measure every panel on my 96 Beretta and then take two steps to the left and measure every panel gap on a 2002 Camry. There is no significant difference - and this from a Chevy car that dates it's panels back to 1987! I like good cars - no matter the make. Don't fall prey to being a fanboy. Just because you don't LIKE the styling of a car, it doesn't mean it sucks. Just because you don't LIKE the interior of a car, it doesn't mean it sucks. Just because you don't LIKE the drivetrain of a car, it doesn't mean it sucks.

Dude - even Hyundai and Kia are kicking GMs ass in interior/exterior design.

 

[Ryan]

Originally posted by: DougK62

Originally posted by: NFS4 You call me anti-american when it comes to cars yet you call Japanese cars Sushi cars or whatever the crap you call them. The truth is, the Cavalier and Sunfire are crap cars built on an aging platform that should have been killed years ago. Their interiors are subpar, the engines are thrashy and unrefined, and just b/c they offset the MPG of larger sport-utes doesn't mean that they have to be built like crap. The Japanese don't build crappy econoboxes, that's for sure.

Typical fanboy response. Go drive a new Cavalier with the only engine they come with - the 2.2 Ecotec. It is much more refined than the buzzy little Civic engine. Not to say that the Civic engine isn't nice, but it's pretty noisy. The Ecotec is mated to a superb Getrag transmission, makes more power than the Civic, and is MUCH quieter and well-mannered. Take a test drive - I dare you

The cavalier engine is more refined than the Civic's. Hahahahahahaha. Did anyone ever tell you how funny you can be?