2003 Pontiac Sunfire- brace yourself...

[DougK62]

Originally posted by: NFS4

I like good cars - no matter the make. Don't fall prey to being a fanboy. Just because you don't LIKE the styling of a car, it doesn't mean it sucks. Just because you don't LIKE the interior of a car, it doesn't mean it sucks. Just because you don't LIKE the drivetrain of a car, it doesn't mean it sucks.

Well, if the interior is cheap and poorly built, the exterior looks like crap (verified by 95% of the people in here), and the drivetrain is not as refined or smooth as the competition, there isn't much to save it IMHO other than the price which is why rental agencies and fleets pick them up.

I rather like GM interiors. They are workhorse tough, easy to clean, and wear well. It is simply your OPINION that they are poorly built and cheap. Your OPINION. Same goes for the exterior. It's your OPINION (and mine) that it's fugly. Having 95% of this forum agree with us doesn't mean jack$hit - we're not even a spec of GMs market. Some people will hate it, but it's one of those designs that you know alot of people are going to like. Talking about the drivetrains like you are is ridiculous. You're falling prey to the old "foreign car drivetrains are more refined and smooth" bait. Like I say - go drive a new Cavalier and compare it to a new Civic. Things are different now, and have been for years.

 

[NFS4]

Originally posted by: rbloedow

Originally posted by: DougK62
It's pathetic how so many people just insist on ribbing American cars. News flash: This isn't the late 80s/early 90s anymore. American cars are made every bit as good as a foreign car. You all just buy into the bull that the foreign makers push on you. Foreign cars USED to be more reliable and better built - you can't make the same argument today. The saddest argument is the "panel gap" one. Anyone who believes this obviously hasn't even seen a semi-recent GM car - either that or they're a foreign car fanboy. I can go out to my garage right now and measure every panel on my 96 Beretta and then take two steps to the left and measure every panel gap on a 2002 Camry. There is no significant difference - and this from a Chevy car that dates it's panels back to 1987! I like good cars - no matter the make. Don't fall prey to being a fanboy. Just because you don't LIKE the styling of a car, it doesn't mean it sucks. Just because you don't LIKE the interior of a car, it doesn't mean it sucks. Just because you don't LIKE the drivetrain of a car, it doesn't mean it sucks.

Dude - even Hyundai and Kia are kicking GMs ass in interior/exterior design.

LOL, I'll drink to that. The latest Hyundais and Kias are quite mainstream with their designs and aren't off the wall like GM's cars. Also, their interiors are quite nice now...especially the XG350.

 

[DougK62]

Originally posted by: rbloedow

Originally posted by: DougK62

Originally posted by: NFS4 You call me anti-american when it comes to cars yet you call Japanese cars Sushi cars or whatever the crap you call them. The truth is, the Cavalier and Sunfire are crap cars built on an aging platform that should have been killed years ago. Their interiors are subpar, the engines are thrashy and unrefined, and just b/c they offset the MPG of larger sport-utes doesn't mean that they have to be built like crap. The Japanese don't build crappy econoboxes, that's for sure.

Typical fanboy response. Go drive a new Cavalier with the only engine they come with - the 2.2 Ecotec. It is much more refined than the buzzy little Civic engine. Not to say that the Civic engine isn't nice, but it's pretty noisy. The Ecotec is mated to a superb Getrag transmission, makes more power than the Civic, and is MUCH quieter and well-mannered. Take a test drive - I dare you

The cavalier engine is more refined than the Civic's. Hahahahahahaha. Did anyone ever tell you how funny you can be?

Typical foreign car nazi - make a silly uneducated comment with the sole purpose of trying to piss off someone

NFS4 prefers foreign cars too (I assume), but at least he can make intelligent comments for his side.

It's sad, really :frown:

 

[NFS4]

I rather like GM interiors. They are workhorse tough, easy to clean, and wear well.

Even GM doesn't like GM interiors. That should tell you something This pretty much sums up all I said about GM interior, incentives, and fleet sales

But GM says it has given the call back to designers. That change is central to Vice Chairman Robert Lutz's push for better perceived quality - that combination of materials, colors, textures, craftsmanship and ergonomics that subtly impresses car buyers.

Widely criticized for cheap-looking interiors, GM says it sees interior quality as key to its larger goal of boosting per-vehicle profits. It wants to create vehicles, especially cars, that will command higher prices.

Lutz's quest is a stretch for the company, because it is cutting costs aggressively. Carryover parts from previous vehicles are still widely used. But Lutz has said GM is willing to invest some of its savings from decontenting vehicles to upgrade interiors.

Many current models with lackluster interiors are sold to rental companies or pushed through dealerships with heavy incentives.

For instance, Chevrolet was offering a $2,500 incentive on the compact Chevrolet Cavalier, with a base price of $13,800, last year before Sept. 11. Thirty-nine percent of Chevrolet Malibus were sold to fleet buyers in 2001 - and 49 percent in the first quarter of this year, GM said.

GM executives see Volkswagen and Audi as prime examples of brands that can charge a premium.

Lutz, for instance, has said the Volkswagen Jetta is "clearly one of our benchmarks," adding that the car's rich interior is "one of the ways they get $24,000 for a car that belongs in the Cavalier category."

Lutz has made GM designers and suppliers look at Audi interiors for inspiration. He has displayed an Audi instrument panel at meetings, one supplier executive said, adding, "It wasn't just that. He's brought in door-trim panels to folks at GM and said, 'Study this.' "

Analyst Andrew Newton of Dresdner Kleinwort Wasserstein in New York says interior quality sways consumers.

Customers form a quick impression the first time they sit in a car and touch the steering wheel, shifter and other surfaces, he said.

"When you get in a car to do that and you feel a PVC plastic-injected part, like something you'd find in a rental car in Florida, you're going to need more of an incentive to buy that car," Newton said.

"GM needs to enhance the product to make up that differential."

http://www.autoweek.com/cat_content.mv?port_code=autoweek&cat_code=carnews&loc_code=index&content_code=05675517

 

[Ryan]

Originally posted by: DougK62

Originally posted by: rbloedow

Originally posted by: DougK62

Originally posted by: NFS4 You call me anti-american when it comes to cars yet you call Japanese cars Sushi cars or whatever the crap you call them. The truth is, the Cavalier and Sunfire are crap cars built on an aging platform that should have been killed years ago. Their interiors are subpar, the engines are thrashy and unrefined, and just b/c they offset the MPG of larger sport-utes doesn't mean that they have to be built like crap. The Japanese don't build crappy econoboxes, that's for sure.

Typical fanboy response. Go drive a new Cavalier with the only engine they come with - the 2.2 Ecotec. It is much more refined than the buzzy little Civic engine. Not to say that the Civic engine isn't nice, but it's pretty noisy. The Ecotec is mated to a superb Getrag transmission, makes more power than the Civic, and is MUCH quieter and well-mannered. Take a test drive - I dare you

The cavalier engine is more refined than the Civic's. Hahahahahahaha. Did anyone ever tell you how funny you can be?

Typical foreign car nazi - make a silly uneducated comment with the sole purpose of trying to piss off someone

NFS4 prefers foreign cars too (I assume), but at least he can make intelligent comments for his side. It's sad, really :frown:

Typical GM fanboy response.

 

[RU482]

here's my favorite quote from that page...

I saw a new Cavaliar on the road the other day and the first thing that came to my mind was that it was the first car ever produced with downs syndrome.

 

[DougK62]

Originally posted by: NFS4

Originally posted by: DougK62

Originally posted by: NFS4

You call me anti-american when it comes to cars yet you call Japanese cars Sushi cars or whatever the crap you call them. The truth is, the Cavalier and Sunfire are crap cars built on an aging platform that should have been killed years ago. Their interiors are subpar, the engines are thrashy and unrefined, and just b/c they offset the MPG of larger sport-utes doesn't mean that they have to be built like crap. The Japanese don't build crappy econoboxes, that's for sure.

Typical fanboy response.

Go drive a new Cavalier with the only engine they come with - the 2.2 Ecotec. It is much more refined than the buzzy little Civic engine. Not to say that the Civic engine isn't nice, but it's pretty noisy. The Ecotec is mated to a superb Getrag transmission, makes more power than the Civic, and is MUCH quieter and well-mannered. Take a test drive - I dare you

The last Civic I drove was a 2001 model and it was not buzzy or loud. The last Cavalier that I was in was a '99 model. It was quite harsh in comparison...even louder than the 2.4 liter I4 in my '95 Camry LE.

The Ecotec has just come out recently - I think you'll have to get a 2001 or newer to get one. What you drove was the old pushrod 2.2 - the design dates back to the late 80s. It's very reliable, but is super noisy, rough, and underpowered.

 

[RU482]

Besides, aren't the only people who buy new sunfire's and cavaliers either Hairdressers or tough guys who wear pink panties under their all black wardrobe

 

[Babbles]

Just thinking a few days ago my brother just got owned in his Civic SI (a real one, not a fake riced out one) by some Grand Am GT.

Yeah, that would be an American GM product.

If you all take a look at the new Neon SRT (or something like that), it looks like a real mean little car.

Something about American cars that I seemed to have noticed, while in many aspects are not as pretty are asthetic pleasing, you can basically kick the crap out of them, and they keep on running.

Seems like when SOME foreign cars start to have issues, it is all just downhill from there. At least that was what happened to my older Accord, and my girlfriends recently killed Accord.

Thinking about styling, anybody look at the new Accords? Just my personal opinion, but something on them just doesn't look right. And, their V6 flavor has decent HP (240 I think) for a FWD family sedan, but where is the torque in foreign, manly Japanese cars?

 

[Shantanu]

Most Japanese cars still feel like cheap tin cans. An old, banged up American car from the 80's will have a more solid feel to it than a brand new Japanese luxury car.

The interiors on my Dad's RX300 and my Mom's Toyota Sienna are both dirt fvcking cheap. The RX300 has inflatable seats, that feel like whoopee cushions for your back (Toyota calls it "adjustable lumbar support").

My V4 '97 Toyota Camry LE was such a weak POS that you couldn't redline the engine no matter how hard you jammed the pedal. I used ot think it was normal for a car to wait 5 seconds before down shifting if you were trying to overtake another car on the expressway.

The build quality on most American that I've seen is pretty good. They do feel solid. On American cars, the ride height usually doesn't drop 3 inches when a little kid hops inside. Import lovers will talk about plastic in American cars. But guess what? Japanese cars are even more plasticky. And this $90,000 Benz SL500 has more cheap plastic and button clutter (go check one out at the local dealership if you think this picture is doctored) than any American car which sells for a third as much. For all the press that Audi/Volkswagen interiors get, it hasn't helped their sales over the past 15 years which has been consistently down, down, down.

Having 95% of this forum agree with us doesn't mean jack$hit

95% of the people on this forum - sadly - would also prefer some sort of riced out, low-riding, turbocharged Honda Civic to a Dodge Viper.

Dude - even Hyundai and Kia are kicking GMs ass in interior/exterior design.

AHAHAHAHAHAHAHA!

Wait.

AHAHAHAHAHAHAHA!!!

I can't imagine how emasculating it must be to say something like that. What a fvcktard. Next time you see a chick riding off in some guy's Corvette, go up to her and say, "Hey baby, you don't want to be seen in that thing. Come ride in my new Kia Sephia! It's got 10 year warranty. OH YEAH!"

You would have to be a retard (or a lover of foreign cars) to complain about "build quality problems" in GM cars, and then praise the "superior construction" of Kias and Hyundais. JD Power says Korean cars average 200+ problems per vehicle. GM only has slightly less than Toyota and Honda (around 130), and is poised to overtake them both at its current quality improvement rates within the next 5 years.

 

[DougK62]

Originally posted by: NFS4

I rather like GM interiors. They are workhorse tough, easy to clean, and wear well.

Even GM doesn't like GM interiors. That should tell you something This pretty much sums up all I said about GM interior, incentives, and fleet sales

But GM says it has given the call back to designers. That change is central to Vice Chairman Robert Lutz's push for better perceived quality - that combination of materials, colors, textures, craftsmanship and ergonomics that subtly impresses car buyers.

Widely criticized for cheap-looking interiors, GM says it sees interior quality as key to its larger goal of boosting per-vehicle profits. It wants to create vehicles, especially cars, that will command higher prices.

Lutz's quest is a stretch for the company, because it is cutting costs aggressively. Carryover parts from previous vehicles are still widely used. But Lutz has said GM is willing to invest some of its savings from decontenting vehicles to upgrade interiors.

Many current models with lackluster interiors are sold to rental companies or pushed through dealerships with heavy incentives.

For instance, Chevrolet was offering a $2,500 incentive on the compact Chevrolet Cavalier, with a base price of $13,800, last year before Sept. 11. Thirty-nine percent of Chevrolet Malibus were sold to fleet buyers in 2001 - and 49 percent in the first quarter of this year, GM said.

GM executives see Volkswagen and Audi as prime examples of brands that can charge a premium.

Lutz, for instance, has said the Volkswagen Jetta is "clearly one of our benchmarks," adding that the car's rich interior is "one of the ways they get $24,000 for a car that belongs in the Cavalier category."

Lutz has made GM designers and suppliers look at Audi interiors for inspiration. He has displayed an Audi instrument panel at meetings, one supplier executive said, adding, "It wasn't just that. He's brought in door-trim panels to folks at GM and said, 'Study this.' "

Analyst Andrew Newton of Dresdner Kleinwort Wasserstein in New York says interior quality sways consumers.

Customers form a quick impression the first time they sit in a car and touch the steering wheel, shifter and other surfaces, he said.

"When you get in a car to do that and you feel a PVC plastic-injected part, like something you'd find in a rental car in Florida, you're going to need more of an incentive to buy that car," Newton said.

"GM needs to enhance the product to make up that differential."

http://www.autoweek.com/cat_content.mv?port_code=autoweek&cat_code=carnews&loc_code=index&content_code=05675517

No arguments from me here. GM does use alot of plastics in their interiors. That doesn't mean that they won't last or are poorly put together. It's just pure preference. I like GM interiors, but the majority of the rest of the world does not - so hopefully they pick up on it and make something that more people will likeso they can sell more cars. I probably won't like the new interiors, but then what does it matter? I'm in the minority.

 

[DougK62]

Originally posted by: rbloedow

Originally posted by: DougK62

Originally posted by: rbloedow

Originally posted by: DougK62

Originally posted by: NFS4 You call me anti-american when it comes to cars yet you call Japanese cars Sushi cars or whatever the crap you call them. The truth is, the Cavalier and Sunfire are crap cars built on an aging platform that should have been killed years ago. Their interiors are subpar, the engines are thrashy and unrefined, and just b/c they offset the MPG of larger sport-utes doesn't mean that they have to be built like crap. The Japanese don't build crappy econoboxes, that's for sure.

Typical fanboy response. Go drive a new Cavalier with the only engine they come with - the 2.2 Ecotec. It is much more refined than the buzzy little Civic engine. Not to say that the Civic engine isn't nice, but it's pretty noisy. The Ecotec is mated to a superb Getrag transmission, makes more power than the Civic, and is MUCH quieter and well-mannered. Take a test drive - I dare you

The cavalier engine is more refined than the Civic's. Hahahahahahaha. Did anyone ever tell you how funny you can be?

Typical foreign car nazi - make a silly uneducated comment with the sole purpose of trying to piss off someone

NFS4 prefers foreign cars too (I assume), but at least he can make intelligent comments for his side. It's sad, really :frown:

Typical GM fanboy response.

SWEET! I call out your fanboy behavior and then you turn around and prove me right with another fanboy post. Brilliant!

You just made my night SO much better

 

[Ryan]

Originally posted by: Shantanu
Most Japanese cars still feel like cheap tin cans. An old, banged up American car from the 80's will have a more solid feel to it than a brand new Japanese luxury car. The interiors on my Dad's RX300 and my Mom's Toyota Sienna are both dirt fvcking cheap. The RX300 has inflatable seats, that feel like whoopee cushions for your back (Toyota calls it "adjustable lumbar support"). My V4 '97 Toyota Camry LE was such a weak POS that you couldn't redline the engine no matter how hard you jammed the pedal. I used ot think it was normal for a car to wait 5 seconds before down shifting if you were trying to overtake another car on the expressway. The build quality on most American that I've seen is pretty good. They do feel solid.

Having 95% of this forum agree with us doesn't mean jack$hit

95% of the people on this forum - sadly - would also prefer some sort of riced out, low-riding, turbocharged Honda Civic to a Dodge Viper.

Dude - even Hyundai and Kia are kicking GMs ass in interior/exterior design.

AHAHAHAHAHAHAHA! Wait. AHAHAHAHAHAHAHA!!! I can't imagine how emasculating it must be to say something like that. What a fvcktard. Next time you see a chick riding off in some guy's Corvette, go up to her and say, "Hey baby, you don't want to be seen in that thing. Come ride in my new Kia Sephia! It's got 10 year warranty. OH YEAH!" You would have to be a retard (or a lover of foreign cars) to complain about "build quality problems" in GM cars, and then praise the "superior construction" of Kias and Hyundais. JD Power says Korean cars average 200+ problems per vehicle. GM only has slightly less than Toyota and Honda (around 130), and is poised to overtake them both at its current quality improvement rates within the next 5 years.

Sorry, I don't date dumb Bitches.

Also, when did I say that Hyundai's and Kia's have superior "construction"? I said that they were kicking GMs ass in DESIGN.

 

[Don Vito Corleone]

This is not the kind of discussion that will ever bear fruit, since presumably neither side will concede much - we each like what we like. Even though the Civic and the Cavalier occupy the same market segment, I doubt many people really cross-shop them.

That said, I still find it hard to understand how anyone could warm up to this interior, with its gray plastic buttons and knobs, or this front end.

 

[deerslayer]

Well, being one of these GM fanboys you guys have been talking about you would expect me to defend the Cavalier/Sunfire argument. I thought about it, and i'm not going to. I drive a 98 cavalier, basically because it had low miles and it was a good price, and I really needed a car.

Honestly, I think the car could have been built much better. The engine in this thing has no acceleration at all, it's like driving a go cart. Everything on/in the car rattles. The interior rattles terribly, which is probably largely due to the stereo that's in it, but my 94 didn't rattle like that. Theres a skid plate of some sort protecting the gas tank, which rattles terribly. About a month after I got the car (used w/29,000 mi) I started having trouble with it dying. I would be driving along and it would start stuttering, and then it would just die. Would start back up with a good effort. Finally went away, still have no idea what it was. Overall the car does it's purpose, but it could have been designed better.

On the other side of the story, I have driven a 2001 Toyota Avalon. I hate to admit it, but that is a very nice car. Great acceleration, smooth handling, very comfortable ride.

I think the new sunfire looks like crap. I didn't think the new cavalier looked that bad besides the rear end looking rediculous, but I only saw two pictures.

But that's just my humble opinion. Aestheticly, it's all in the eye of the beholder.

 

[Shantanu]

I said that they were kicking GMs ass in DESIGN.

Exhibit A

Exhibit B

Exhibit C

Exhibit D

Exhibit E

Exhibit F

Need this painful exercise continue? I'm sure GM is just scared sh|tless about those Korean cars and their 2% market share. That must keep them up night, while they're busy gaining market share and setting sales records.

RDblow is angry because all the cool rice boys that he wants desperatly to hang out with won't accept him because of his subpar (Korean) ricemobile. What a poor bastard.

 

[Don Vito Corleone]

RDblow is angry because all the cool rice boys that he wants desperatly to hang out with won't accept him because of his subpar (Korean) ricemobile. What a poor bastard.

Is there a reason you have to be so personally insulting? It pretty much makes me tune out the rest of your posts as just white noise.

 

[NFS4]

Originally posted by: LyNx01
Well, being one of these GM fanboys you guys have been talking about you would expect me to defend the Cavalier/Sunfire argument. I thought about it, and i'm not going to. I drive a 98 cavalier, basically because it had low miles and it was a good price, and I really needed a car.

Honestly, I think the car could have been built much better. The engine in this thing has no acceleration at all, it's like driving a go cart. Everything on/in the car rattles. The interior rattles terribly, which is probably largely due to the stereo that's in it, but my 94 didn't rattle like that. Theres a skid plate of some sort protecting the gas tank, which rattles terribly. About a month after I got the car (used w/29,000 mi) I started having trouble with it dying. I would be driving along and it would start stuttering, and then it would just die. Would start back up with a good effort. Finally went away, still have no idea what it was. Overall the car does it's purpose, but it could have been designed better.

On the other side of the story, I have driven a 2001 Toyota Avalon. I hate to admit it, but that is a very nice car. Great acceleration, smooth handling, very comfortable ride.

I think the new sunfire looks like crap. I didn't think the new cavalier looked that bad besides the rear end looking rediculous, but I only saw two pictures.

But that's just my humble opinion. Aestheticly, it's all in the eye of the beholder.

That another thing...rattles and vibrations. I got a lot of that in the Cavalier I drove. Seemed kinda strange being that it only had like 19,000 miles on it. My car has 116,000 miles on it and doesn't rattle and shudder.

 

[stev0]

Originally posted by: Rallispec
i think who ever is in charge of design there needs a serious beating

talk about fugly.

 

[Ryan]

Originally posted by: Shantanu

I said that they were kicking GMs ass in DESIGN.

Exhibit A Exhibit B Exhibit C Exhibit D Exhibit E Exhibit F Need this painful exercise continue? I'm sure GM is just scared sh|tless about those Korean cars and their 2% market share. That must keep them up night, while they're busy gaining market share and setting sales records. RDblow is angry because all the cool rice boys that he wants desperatly to hang out with won't accept him because of his subpar (Korean) ricemobile. What a poor bastard.

Did my dumb bitches comment really tick you off that much? If that's your type of chick, go right ahead and have her.

Also, why are you comparing 35K cars to cars that are below 16k and 10k? I don't know if you failed to notice, but we were talking about econoboxes, dickhead.

BTW, I drive a Nissan Maxima. What kind of car do you drive? Or should I be asking, what kind of car did your parents buy for you?

 

[loup garou]

Man, I don't care who made that Sunfire, it's ugly...period. It could be German, Japanese, American, or Italian...something that ugly transcends reputations and nations of origin.

Originally posted by: rbloedow
What kind of car do you drive? Or should I be asking, what kind of car did your parents buy for you?

Don't you just love that the ones who yell the loudest in the car threads are usually people who don't even own their own car? I've always found that to be funny.

 

[b0mbrman]

Why don't they just produce the Solstice? WHY?

 

[NFS4]

Originally posted by: b0mbrman
Why don't they just produce the Solstice? WHY?

Exactly!!! The concept car was built on a modified (RWD) J-Car platform (Cavalier/Sunfire...bleh). The Sunfire is so flippin' cool though.

 

[dirtboy]

Originally posted by: Rallispec

Originally posted by: Zim Hosein

Originally posted by: Rallispec
i think who ever is in charge of design there needs a serious beating

Makes you wonder who approves these "design" updates

yeah seriously.. and more importantly-- why do people conitinue to buy them

People who don't want to spend alot of money on a car.

 

[Ryan]

everyone needs to bask in this thing's UGLINESS!