2007WFP gradient banding

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Heartbreaker

Diamond Member
Apr 3, 2006
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Thanks for the update guys. It didn't seem right that there should be this banding. There was none on my 2405. How could they mess up a new line of monitors like this? Are these new faster IPS panel pulling a fast one and giving 6bit color depth? It's not like they will ever give us the truth.

Unfortunately I didn't expect much from Dell Customer service. Probably some guy in India looking at a flowchart. Dell will only get the message if they get massive returns. And since the casual user probably won't notice or even know what is going on if they do, chances are that will not happen. All we can do is spread the word.
 

kmmatney

Diamond Member
Jun 19, 2000
4,363
1
81
I have a 6 bit panel - it "barely" shows any banding in XTKnights program. It certainly looks a lot better than most of the pictures people have posted. I expected it to look worse with the 6-bit color, but the dithering appears to do an excellent job of reducing the banding. It shows up a little bit omn the green, barely at all in the grey, and is not visible at all in the blue. Overall very good for a 6-bit display.
 

Heartbreaker

Diamond Member
Apr 3, 2006
4,334
5,451
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Good point on the 6bit. I was up late doing work, so my brain probably wasn't at full function. Maybe they used to have some individual calibrations, but now they just load the same calibration for the whole product run and call it good enough.

The model of big corporations with disconnected, often outsourced customer service is broken. Dell will just keep churning out the broken product despite the returns and the feedback into customer service.

Are you getting a full refund or are they trying to tad you with the 15% restock fee?
 

xtknight

Elite Member
Oct 15, 2004
12,974
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71
The ViewSonic VX2025WM looks promising for $400. Might be better than the Dell 2007WFP. If you're willing to give any other LCD a try I think that's the one you should go for (if you can't afford the 20WMGX2).
 

Heartbreaker

Diamond Member
Apr 3, 2006
4,334
5,451
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I believe both myself and JM were looking for 1600x1200 monitors and I am not interested in LCD unless it is IPS. I finally saw one today (a used Viewsonic VP201) and it does indeed have great viewing angle. Almost CRT like.

So for me IPS and 1600x1200 minimum resolution and no wierd banding issues. Getting closer to another CRT. Too bad because I am sure in 6 months I could probably find my requirements, though they don't seem to be available now.

 

JMWarren

Golden Member
Nov 6, 2003
1,201
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I think I'm going to give the 23" Philips IPS a shot or the 2407FPW once it's release. It'll have to wait till I'm done exams and back home though.

Guidryp - was your only complaint with the 2405 the view angle? How was the color reproduction? (Lots of people say its great, but lots of people would notice the banding problems either)
 

Heartbreaker

Diamond Member
Apr 3, 2006
4,334
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Viewing angle and Insanely overbright backlighting, even with backlighting at zero.This is a 500cd/(sq m) display which is just plain insane. CRT's top out at ~100cd/(sq m). It doesn't moderate down very well either. You could go farther with the with on card graphics controls but they you are essentially just keeping the high power backlight while putting a permaent bias on the Liquid crystal cells. I could never get it looking decent when adjusting it down in this manner. As you turn it down it seems to make the viewing angle issues even more pronounced. It created a wierd shimmer around dark objects as differening amounts of light reached each eye due to the very poor viewing angles(kind of parallax effect). It was a mess for any close usage IMO.

Overall when bright I thought the colors looked better than my CRT and there was no real banding to speak of. Watching AVI or looking at images from enough distance that viewing angle stuff dissapeared, then I thought it looked fantastic. I downloaded a bunch 1920x1200 wallpaper and at a distance they looked amazing.

But arms lengh useage just killed me with a combo of viewing angle and overpowered backlight. I don't understand why the Dell needs an insanely bright backlight. Using on a snowfield during sunny winter days? I think it is just specmanship. More brightness also = greater contrast numbers.



 

JMWarren

Golden Member
Nov 6, 2003
1,201
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Yeah, I've heard the back light issue addressed before. The most common solution some sort of service menu adjustment IIRC.

I think it might be worth a shot...if the 2407FPW ever gets to market and isn't screwd up when it does...
 

xtknight

Elite Member
Oct 15, 2004
12,974
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Well, the bigger the LCD, the bigger the backlight needed to power it. But maybe with white LEDs they will be able to throw 100 nits all over across the screen rather than having a bright light scattered across the whole screen. Well, I think they do use like 6 CCFLs, if not more, but it's still bright. The higher brightness really doesn't increase the contrast at all because the crystals have a harder time coping with blocking the light, thus raising black level and making that extra brightness rather useless.
 

B4RK0D3

Member
Mar 29, 2006
90
0
66
You know, I feel a bit foolish now. I was talking earlier about how happy I was with this monitor, and now I've started working on a few web design projects I had started on my CRT. I guess my eyes are finally getting adjusted to using it...and yes, there is very noticeable color banding.

I think I'm going to send mine back as well. Any suggestions on something comparable in price, but not in exchange for poor quality?
 

xtknight

Elite Member
Oct 15, 2004
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Originally posted by: B4RK0D3
I think I'm going to send mine back as well. Any suggestions on something comparable in price, but not in exchange for poor quality?

The VX2025WM, as stated above, looks great.
 

Heartbreaker

Diamond Member
Apr 3, 2006
4,334
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Originally posted by: xtknight
Well, the bigger the LCD, the bigger the backlight needed to power it. But maybe with white LEDs they will be able to throw 100 nits all over across the screen rather than having a bright light scattered across the whole screen. Well, I think they do use like 6 CCFLs, if not more, but it's still bright. The higher brightness really doesn't increase the contrast at all because the crystals have a harder time coping with blocking the light, thus raising black level and making that extra brightness rather useless.

There is no need to increase light density with a bigger monitor. This is 500cd/sq m. It is a light over area measure. Which should essentially remain constant. You still want to adjust this thing down to about ~100 cd/sq m, when calibrating for image editing and not burning your eyes out. A big monitor needs more light sources to cover the bigger area, but there is no reason to crank up the light/area just because you have a bigger monitor. Note the bigger 32 Inch Dell is 100 cd less, at 400 cd/sq m. A lot of smaller monitor are moving up each release.

I could go on an on about the wierdness of this monitor. Another oddity that I noted. Pure black is like have a door shut, it is almost like a special state that blocks light very well. So (0,0,0) is very black and doesn't not suffer washout with viewing angles. Thus I think they can pump the (measured number for) contrast very well with the super backlight and the very black off state. But that is a measured number and not a reflection of ultimate performance. The problem is that 5% (25,25,25) tone can still be very dark, but is very suseptible to the backlight power and washing out at viewing angle. The 5% to 30% range is most susceptible to view angle shifts and strange shimmering borders etc. Ick.

I believe there are LCD's out there that I would like, but they are all IPS based and finding one that is inexpensive and not broken like these dells is just too much trouble.

JM: As far as adjustments. I tried everything. You have the backlight/brightness on the monitor. After that you can actually do a custom color profile on the R, G, B in the monitors color menu and pull them down, though on mine they were already pretty low (in 30s). Finally you can use you graphic card to adjust gamma/bright/contrast, but that like the in monitor control of RGB will simply put more or less permanent bias on the liquid crystal structure and doesn't look so hot. If you can't get dim enough with backlight control the other methods are going to produce negative results.

I should note that I had a version 2.0 2405 which according to the panel list had a panel change and appears to have the same type of panel in the first 2407's. So I would not expect any better performance from the 2407.

 

xtknight

Elite Member
Oct 15, 2004
12,974
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Originally posted by: guidryp
There is no need to increase light density with a bigger monitor. This is 500cd/sq m. It is a light over area measure. Which should essentially remain constant. You still want to adjust this thing down to about ~100 cd/sq m, when calibrating for image editing and not burning your eyes out. A big monitor needs more light sources to cover the bigger area, but there is no reason to crank up the light/area just because you have a bigger monitor. Note the bigger 32 Inch Dell is 100 cd less, at 400 cd/sq m. A lot of smaller monitor are moving up each release.

Yeah I guess you're right, there is no need to, but this seems to be what always happens with larger monitors. HUGE brightness. :Q I don't think that's going to change any time soon, unfortunately.
 

kmmatney

Diamond Member
Jun 19, 2000
4,363
1
81
I have a Samsung 213T at work and it shows no banding with XTKnight's program, using a VGA connection from a laptop. Too bad it ghosts like mad...
 

yacoub

Golden Member
May 24, 2005
1,991
14
81
Got my 2007WFP and installed it just now. Definitely much worse gradients than the old Sony LCD. It also is not as vibrant a picture, which is a shame for something a good 4-5 years newer. =P
About to test for dead/stuck pixels. If it comes out with none I'll likely just keep it.

edit: Looks like no dead or stuck pixels thank God!!
That said, the picture sure is kinda crappy for the latest technology, imho, especially compared to the Sony I was using. Interesting... I wonder why DVI is so nasty on this monitor.
 

orion23

Platinum Member
Oct 1, 2003
2,035
0
71
Originally posted by: yacoub
Got my 2007WFP and installed it just now. Definitely much worse gradients than the old Sony LCD. It also is not as vibrant a picture, which is a shame for something a good 4-5 years newer. =P
About to test for dead/stuck pixels. If it comes out with none I'll likely just keep it.

edit: Looks like no dead or stuck pixels thank God!!
That said, the picture sure is kinda crappy for the latest technology, imho, especially compared to the Sony I was using. Interesting... I wonder why DVI is so nasty on this monitor.


How can I test my 2007FP for dead pixels?
 

IlllI

Diamond Member
Feb 12, 2002
4,927
10
81
Originally posted by: yacoub
Got my 2007WFP and installed it just now. Definitely much worse gradients than the old Sony LCD. It also is not as vibrant a picture, which is a shame for something a good 4-5 years newer. =P
About to test for dead/stuck pixels. If it comes out with none I'll likely just keep it.

edit: Looks like no dead or stuck pixels thank God!!
That said, the picture sure is kinda crappy for the latest technology, imho, especially compared to the Sony I was using. Interesting... I wonder why DVI is so nasty on this monitor.




this is all discouraging news...guess i wont be getting one for myself





 

yacoub

Golden Member
May 24, 2005
1,991
14
81
I'm much more satisfied with it now that my eyes have adjusted to it and also watching a DVD movie on it helped quite a bit.

I definitely like it now. Boxed up my Sony and tucked it in the closet for emergencies. =)

http://users.adelphia.net/~jrockcls/MonitorTest.zip <--- This is what I used to check for dead or stuck pixels. Excellent tool. My own personal mirror (will probably be removed in a couple days).
 

Armageddon415

Golden Member
Sep 24, 2000
1,608
0
0
How noticeable is the gradient problem under regular usage, movies, and gaming? It seems like people arent noticing it unless they are testing for it or are doing specific tasks.
 

deeznuts

Senior member
Sep 19, 2001
667
0
0
There is some serious banding issues with the 2007WFP. I have one right here, sitting next to a 2005FPW, running some of these patterns on both machines on clone mode, the banding is evident. On the 2005 the gradient or whatever is really smooth, while on the 2007WFP it is clear, and it is actually the first time I've looked for it, and seen it.

It is not noticeable during regular usage, however I have not played games. It is definitely not noticeable during any movies I have quickly viewed or scanned.

Do these forums not allow posting pics? I have some pics, but for sure the banding is very evident. Both displays are connected by DVI, to a 7600GT.
 

Heartbreaker

Diamond Member
Apr 3, 2006
4,334
5,451
136
Originally posted by: Armageddon415
How noticeable is the gradient problem under regular usage, movies, and gaming? It seems like people arent noticing it unless they are testing for it or are doing specific tasks.

Personally I wouldn't touch one with a ten foot pole. They are defective plain and simple. It will be hard to notice unless you compare because you will never know if the problem is the source or the monitor. Like you could be playing a game and never notice the banding in the sky until you go to a buddies house and see the sky as a smooth continuous tone.

Or you will comment on problems with photos you see online in a forum to be told that only you see them and to switch to 32 bit color (except you are already in 32 bit color).

Flip your graphics card to 16 bit color and use it a week that way. If you are happy with the results this monitor is for you. (right click desktop background, properties, settings, color quality Medium 16 bit, ok.

You would be surpised the number of people I see on photo forums complaining about artifacts in images that they see. Eventually people get them to check their computer and they are in 16 bit mode.
 

Heartbreaker

Diamond Member
Apr 3, 2006
4,334
5,451
136
Originally posted by: BroadbandGamer
I've got one and I don't see any banding.



One what? Your sig lists a Dell 2005FPW, we are generally talking about banding in the Dell 2007fp[w].

If you have a 2007fp[w], did you run on DVI and did you run one of the pragrams that generates smooth gradients?

If still yes, then you are the anomaly so far. Could you go into your service menu and tell us panel and version information?
 
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