2007WFP gradient banding

[josh6079]

q]Originally posted by: yacoub

Originally posted by: spronkey
No offense josh, but are you a tard or something?

I think he might be here just to argue, so let's just ignore him from now on, ok?[/quote]


You must have completely missed the 11th page. I'm not trying to have an argument, I'm simply saying that since this is most likely a hardware issue (like you've come to conclude), and since Dell hasn't had a good history for repairing monitor defects (aka, 2005's & backlight bleeding), the best way to get a monitor that will do what you want it to is to get another one. (If you're really not happy with it)

It is good to hear that Dell is "doing the need full for this issue" as astromoose said they stated, but hoping that a driver that Dell releases fixes a hardware issue is like waiting for Nvidia to release a driver that lets it 7 series do AA+HDR, it won't fix it (if it is indeed a hardware issue). Honestly, I hope I'm proved wrong and they enact a recall and such, but I'm not going to wait for them to decide.

Originally posted by: B4RK0D3

Originally posted by: josh6079
My truck makes a clicking noise, and it has some rust forming on it. Oh, and the paint job isn't exactly the same shade everywhere, etc.

Honestly guys, shut up and play. Put your microscopes back in your pockets, forget what name is on the monitor (since some people don't even want to acknowledge the fact that Dell can do some good things), and just start spending more time doing what you wanted to do with a computer. If you don't like what you have, return it and try another monitor until you do.

I don't want to offend anyone, but dam, everyone agrees that every monitor has its issues. So what is the point in nit picking at every little issue on one monitor if you're going to find another issue in another monitor? IMHO, the Dell is probably the one of the best bangs for the bucks in terms of monitors (The VeiwSonic is probably a little better here though since it is 130~150 dollars cheaper).

I know that I shouldn't even bother replying to this. But, I don't know about you, but ~ $500 is a lot of money for me and I think I have a right to expect quality. Especially beyond the quality of displays that are considerably cheaper. Also, I'm a graphic designer. A display is one of the single, most important aspects of working with digital imaging. What if I'm designing a print layout and I can't tell if a transition has steps in it, or if it's the monitor? Also, if I'm working on touching up professionally-shot photography and I see banding in part of an image...I would have no way to determine if it's in the photo, or if it's my ****** display that I have to train my eyes to use? There are just standards now, and this is no small deal.

I think that this thread is very refreshing and helpful. This was even linked to on the DELL.com technical support forums, and is getting attention from moderators there. This is quite a large issue, so go stand a soapbox somewhere else because you obviously don't know what you're talking about.

That's nice. I never said that $500.00 is nothing and those who bought them have to live with them in anger that they might have got ripped off. Yes, $500.00 is a pretty good chuck for a computer component, but you have the option of getting that back. You're right, this isn't a small problem...for you. For others, it isn't a big problem at all...it is simply a matter of preference and it seems like everyone who is extremely annoyed by this problem are on the same page as me. They want to get Dell's freak'n attention and have a fix provided, whatever it may be.

Once again, I'll put it in bold so many people can stop misreading my text:

For those who don't notice it in 99% of what they do, keep it if you want.

For those who can't stand it, return it, tell Dell why you did (banding), and use the money to get a monitor that works better for you.

Wow that was more difficult than I thought. Yes, the thread here is doing a darn good job of addressing the issue (just like many places), and yes the problem is prevalent on (so far) all monitors, and yes Dell needs to know the problem. My idea of letting them know just must be so radical and crazy for anyone to think it is an option. I guess its just me.

 

[VisceralM]

I've been following this thread with much interest for a few days now. I'm about to buy a new lcd monitor, and while I had every intention of it being a Dell one, that's just not going to happen now. The problem with quality is well documented here as well as other forums, and it's pretty obvious that Dell will more than likely not make any changes anytime soon. The bottom line is this: The Dell 2007wfp is faulty and it's been shown over and over again to affect 99.9% of the people who purchase it. And lets face it, the kind of people who buy this kind of monitor will pay close attention to details like this, so in the end it's simply not acceptable.

The product is flawed and should not be considered for purchase. If you have one, you should return it ASAP and look elsewhere. Now, what we *really* need is a good, solid alternative to this monitor.

Just my 2 cents.

 

[cmge]

Originally posted by: spronkey

Originally posted by: cmge
my mistake and i do apologize for the confusion... the pictures were screenshots.. ... i will try and some pics later with my digicam.... and ill post it again for some opinions.. ill try it with both AGP and DVI setup and post my test setup as well...

If those pictures were screenshots, i'm now concerned about the gradlin program (if that's what you used), because there is clear banding in them that shouldn't be there.

Unless you compressed them too much but it was vertical banding and JPEG from memory ...

Hmm.

i took some pics with my digicam fujifinepix F10, no flash, iso 800

my setup is seen in my sig below... the LCD was made in China, March 2006 and the model is 2007WFPb... i dunno wat the "b" stands for... ...

panel model from setup
http://www.fileh.com/cmge/panel.jpg

16-bit native resolution DVI connection
http://www.fileh.com/cmge/16bit-blue-grey.jpg
http://www.fileh.com/cmge/16bit-red-green.jpg

32-bit native resolution DVI connection
http://www.fileh.com/cmge/32bit-blue-grey.jpg
http://www.fileh.com/cmge/32bit-red-green.jpg

i havent tried it out with games yet.. i will do that on the weekend... i heard F.E.A.R looks horrible..

 

[imported_greyhound]

FEAR looks horrible??? I just played some on DVI and looked directly at the night sky with moon and clouds - no banding at all noticed.

If you mean a dark game like FEAR looks lousy compared to on a CRT - I agree. HL2, on the other hand, looks better on the LCD.

 

[josh6079]

Originally posted by: greyhound
FEAR looks horrible??? I just played some on DVI and looked directly at the night sky with moon and clouds - no banding at all noticed.

If you mean a dark game like FEAR looks lousy compared to on a CRT - I agree. HL2, on the other hand, looks better on the LCD.

Is that just because of the black levels? Which is more ideal for most gaming, CRT or LCD?

I don't want to get off topic or anything, just a short answer will do.

 

[MaceX]

Originally posted by: cmge
16-bit native resolution DVI connection
http://www.fileh.com/cmge/16bit-blue-grey.jpg
http://www.fileh.com/cmge/16bit-red-green.jpg

Well 16bit mode is always going to show banding on any display, my 2007wfp looks like yours in the 32bit mode.

Does anyone know if it's possible to update the firmware on these displays? Not sure if that would fix the problem, but it's a possibility.

 

[yacoub]

Originally posted by: josh6079
For those who can't stand it, return it, tell Dell why you did (banding), and use the money to get a monitor that works better for you.

Just shut up already. You're not even reading what people are writing. There are no better alternatives out there - every other monitor in the price and size range is either ugly or lacks all the inputs of the 2007WFP.

Originally posted by: josh6079

Is that just because of the black levels? Which is more ideal for most gaming, CRT or LCD?

I don't want to get off topic or anything, just a short answer will do.

Here's a short answer: Go read the long LCD review thread stickied at the top of the Video forum. Plenty of discussion and info there and elsewhere in this forum.

 

[cmge]

Originally posted by: greyhound
FEAR looks horrible??? I just played some on DVI and looked directly at the night sky with moon and clouds - no banding at all noticed.

If you mean a dark game like FEAR looks lousy compared to on a CRT - I agree. HL2, on the other hand, looks better on the LCD.

what i meant was you can see serious gradient banding issues... im not sure if it was here or widescreengaming forum or hardforum or dell forums.... but someone posted a screenshot of F.E.A.R with their 2007WFP... and yeah it looks horrible...

the game itself is amazing... but experiencing banding on it is not..

Originally posted by: josh6079
Is that just because of the black levels? Which is more ideal for most gaming, CRT or LCD?

I don't want to get off topic or anything, just a short answer will do.

CRT is more ideal for gaming...

Originally posted by: MaceX
Well 16bit mode is always going to show banding on any display, my 2007wfp looks like yours in the 32bit mode.

Does anyone know if it's possible to update the firmware on these displays? Not sure if that would fix the problem, but it's a possibility.

yeah 16bit sucks but really who uses it when u can use 32bit.. ... if your results are similar as mine, do u find it a nuissance with other applications (i.e gaming or watching movies)... im not sure if thats something to be worried about it, since compared to other 2007WFP ive seen worse gradient banding issues... i have yet to try it on intensive gaming and movie playbacks... i dont think its a firmware issue tho... i think its the panel and poor DVI port...

id really like to c xtknights program run on the Viewsonic VX2025wm and compare it with the 2007WFP

 

[imported_greyhound]

I readily see the banding on the gradient tests but I'm not seeing it in FEAR. Also, with a gradient test, you are looking for banding. When playing a game, you aren't, so it's easier to miss if it is minor. However, even trying to see banding in the FEAR sky - I can't, even though grayscale is where the banding is the most severe.

Admittedly, some people's banding seems to be worse than others. I've seen gradlin gradient photos that are much worse than what I see on mine. Also, gradlin3 seems to reveal banding much more so than the other tests - it even shows up on VGA, though not as badly. Yet, on some of the other tests xtknight has posted, like the circular grayscale, I see no VGA banding at all.

 

[mpc7488]

I just ran version 0.3 of the gradlin program on my monitor here at work (it's the 1905FP), and the banding is much less pronounced than on my 2007WFP, almost undetectable. I agree now that there is some kind of banding problem with my monitor that correlates with the others I've seen (though apparently to varying degrees, mine looks identical to cmge's, but I think both of those look better than others I've seen).

I'll be keeping mine, it doesn't bother me in desktop work or games (yet), but I'll be interested to hear Dell's response.

 

[Heartbreaker]

One thing to consider about banding is resale. When I sold my 2405, the first thing the guy did was put up some gradient images. Not an issue with my 2405, but possible lost resale value if it was.

 

[MaceX]

Originally posted by: cmge
yeah 16bit sucks but really who uses it when u can use 32bit.. ... if your results are similar as mine, do u find it a nuissance with other applications (i.e gaming or watching movies)... im not sure if thats something to be worried about it, since compared to other 2007WFP ive seen worse gradient banding issues... i have yet to try it on intensive gaming and movie playbacks... i dont think its a firmware issue tho... i think its the panel and poor DVI port...

id really like to c xtknights program run on the Viewsonic VX2025wm and compare it with the 2007WFP

I found it to be annoying when playing Plasma Pong. VGA mode was MUCH better. Anyhow Dell is sending me another 2007WFP. I have a feeling this one will have the defect, but at least hopefully it won't have any dead pixels. My current 2007WFP only has 1, not that that bothers me, but still.

 

[LiekOMG]

Originally posted by: spronkey
I'm waiting for two of these (2007wfp) to arrive, after having sent back the one 2005fpw i had (starting to regret that - i wanted two of them, but dell didn't have any left ), and I have a number of questions for 2007wfp owners.

Firstly, I've created a test image in PNG and TIFF forms (to ensure that PNG and it's own colour profiles aren't the problem, make sure they both display the same). The URLs:
TIF: http://www.spronkware.com/spronkey/sdc-testchart-gradientbandi.tif
PNG: http://www.spronkware.com/spronkey/sdc-testchart-gradientbandi.png

Secondly, could you please put your monitors into DESKTOP mode.

Thirdly, could you ensure that NO OTHER INPUTS are connected to your LCD at the time of testing.

(this is my attempt at a controlled experiment)

Could a few please post some photos of their 2007wfp's displaying this test image in the following configurations (all in desktop mode):

- VGA mode, Default colour settings, Default contrast/brightness
- VGA mode, Lowered colour settings (30, 30, 30), Default contrast/brightness
- VGA mode, Lowered colour settings, Lowered contrast/brightness (30, 30)
- VGA mode, Lowered colour settings, Lowered contrast/brightness (30, 30)

- DVI mode, Default colour settings, Default brightness
- DVI mode, Lowered colour settings (30, 30, 30), Default brightness
- DVI mode, Lowered colour settings (30, 30, 30), Lowered brightness (30)
- DVI mode, Default colour settings, Lowered brightness (30)

With the test images above, you should see smooth gradients with dither on both horizontal and vertical, followed by smooth gradients (which are mapped at one 1px line per colour, unlike some of the test gradients around). The lower saturation gradients should also be smooth with no banding.

The six diagonal gradient squares should be smooth, the top 3 use dithering, the bottom three use flat lines.

The RGB squares should also be smooth.

Hopefully the following tests above will provide some sort of insight into where the problem lies. I'm thinking the digital logic chips inside the monitor might be clipping certain signals because they are slightly too strong, or some other strange phenomenon.

Anyhow, photos of these test images in the 8 above modes would be appreciated, and hopefully should prove helpful.

Incase anyone is using this, i've noticed a very slight amount of banding in the PNG version of the pic on my CRT. The TIF seems to have none, so I would highly recommend using the TIF to test with.

 

[Heartbreaker]

Originally posted by: DOACleric

Incase anyone is using this, i've noticed a very slight amount of banding in the PNG version of the pic on my CRT. The TIF seems to have none, so I would highly recommend using the TIF to test with.

Most likely there is something wrong with your viewer software. PNG and TIFF are both lossless, meaning they don't alter the image in any way. I just loaded them up and flipped between them, there is no difference. No banding in either on my 21" trinitron.

Edit:
Is Dell ever screwing up. There is an early review of the 2407 from japan up on widescreen forum and guess what? Banding! Though not as severe as the 2007 models. Since that is a Samsung Panel and these are LG, it is looking like Dell matched the new panels with crapola electronics.

http://www.widescreengamingforum.com/forum/viewtopic.php?p=37763#37763

 

[josh6079]

Originally posted by: yacoub

Originally posted by: josh6079
For those who can't stand it, return it, tell Dell why you did (banding), and use the money to get a monitor that works better for you.

Just shut up already. You're not even reading what people are writing. There are no better alternatives out there - every other monitor in the price and size range is either ugly or lacks all the inputs of the 2007WFP.

Originally posted by: josh6079

Is that just because of the black levels? Which is more ideal for most gaming, CRT or LCD?

I don't want to get off topic or anything, just a short answer will do.

Here's a short answer: Go read the long LCD review thread stickied at the top of the Video forum. Plenty of discussion and info there and elsewhere in this forum.

Who's trying to argue now? I was open to others opinions and saw my own way as being the best way to get their attention. Why does that bother you so much? You don't have to do that, I'm just suggesting that.

And someone who appears to be older than you (cmge) has already provided me with a very quick response to my question. Thanks cmge.

 

[Ryan Norton]

For what it's worth, and this is only preliminary, I received my 2nd 2007WFP today at work. I have it plugged into my G4 Mac Mini using DVI and banding is less evident using Spronkey's test PNG. None of the Dell Optiplexes here have a DVI output so I won't be able to test this new monitor until later this evening. This is also Rev A00 Made in Mexico device.

EDIT: Spoke to soon. Created some gradients in Photoshop and banding is as evident as ever. Guess I will be "troubleshooting" again this weekend, until Dell acknowledges and issue and tells me what they're doing to fix it. If the answer is nothing, then I guess I'll return it and get a Viewsonic.

 

[Heartbreaker]

Spronkeys test will show less banding as it covers a smaller area it will make banding less obvious. Most of his sections don't band even when you flip into 16bit mode.

I don't want a test case that makes it more difficult to spot banding, I want the test case that makes the banding as obvious as possible. That is the whole point of a test case: To highlight failure modes.

Edit:
I notice someone posted a gradlin pic from the viewsonic:
http://users.pandora.be/Ryuen/gradlinpic.jpg

 

[spronkey]

Alright, I've updated my test chart.

It should be about twice as tough now. It wasn't designed to test the same things as gradlin in the first place, but it will now.

The new location: http://www.spronkey.com/sdc-gradients.png and http://www.spronkey.com/sdc-gradients.tif

The top (smooth) gradient for each horizontal black->primary has been extended, and is broken into two even-height gradients. The top is dithered, and should be smooth (if it's not, the monitor really does have SEVERE issues). The lower is not dithered, and should appear exactly as the gradlin program gradients appear.

Furthermore, both halves of the smooth area should appear identical from normal viewing distance.

The short (256px wide) gradients are there for a reason. The monitor's circuitry might be having problems with larger areas of the same colour and the transition to the next area, and if that is the case, these gradients should highlight that.

The new circular gradients should show banding very obviously.


Also, I don't have a pic yet, but my iBook's LCD has problems with all these gradients. Less obvious in vertical, but showing circular rings, and banding to a slightly lesser degree as the 2007wfp seems to be, but its still very obivous. I *think* it's a 6-bit TN panel though.

 

[Heartbreaker]

There seems to be no difference in you to two halfs of the top line smooth gradients. Not just no visual difference, but no numeric difference. I am using a pixel checker and I see only the same pure red values whether I check the first 50 pixels or the later 50 pixels.

Here is an exact location so you know what I mean:
x,y(R,G,B) 400,14 (70,0,0) Within the first 50
x,y(R,G,B) 400,65 (70,0,0) Withing the second 50

I have not been able to find a variation, if half is dithered there should be some difference.

I will definitely try this when I get my LCD from dell (still not shipped), but unless it shows somethign telling, I probly will post pictures of gradlin .2 since there are so many shots of that so far, it serves a good comiparison.

 

[xtknight]

Originally posted by: guidryp
Edit:
I notice someone posted a gradlin pic from the viewsonic:
http://users.pandora.be/Ryuen/gradlinpic.jpg

Ah, which ViewSonic is this?

 

[Heartbreaker]

This is the 2025. It essentially shows no banding. Which is what you would expect from any reasonable modern LCD.

 

[Madwand1]

I have a Viewsonic 2025, and it's not entirely free of banding in this test -- I see slight banding in the greys and greens, but nothing in the reds and blues that I can make out, and it still looks a lot better than the jpeg screen captures someone posted, and better than the Dell photographs.

I don't see any banding in the spronkey tests, nor in my own photographs with various sky grandients, etc. -- this is where it really matters.

I find taking a photograph of the on-screen gradients to be very difficult, with ever-present moire. I can get rid of it by defocusing slightly (or allowing the camera to shake perhaps), but am not entirely happy with that because it can cover up some of the banding. Noise / noise reduction can also do that; I guess that might have been the reason for the above link to come out appearing banding-free.

My verdict is that it's not a serious problem on the 2025, but I wouldn't say that the 2025's entirely free of the problem, as it can be seen if you look carefully in the gradlin test.

 

[o2brew]

For reference, I can't find any banding on the spronkey images on my 2005fpw. I did notice it on my laptop screen at work, pretty sure that is a 6 bit TN panel based on the crappy viewing angles. So I do know what it looks like, but no evidence of it on the 2005fpw.

 

[yacoub]

Originally posted by: guidryp
This is the 2025. It essentially shows no banding. Which is what you would expect from any reasonable modern LCD.

Heck, my five year old Sony LCD was completely free of banding. ;p

 

[spronkey]

Originally posted by: guidryp
There seems to be no difference in you to two halfs of the top line smooth gradients. Not just no visual difference, but no numeric difference. I am using a pixel checker and I see only the same pure red values whether I check the first 50 pixels or the later 50 pixels.

Use a 'magic wand' tool in any image editor with a colour tolerance of zero, and you'll see where the dithering comes into play