2007WFP gradient banding

[sisq0kidd]

I'm not exactly sure what everyone is talking about, but this is a picture of my 2405fpw running that gradient test.

Is this banding? I'm running dvi by the way.

 

[RollWave]

all i can say is HAH! I love my 2405

 

[cmge]

Originally posted by: sisq0kidd
I'm not exactly sure what everyone is talking about, but this is a picture of my 2405fpw running that gradient test.

Is this banding? I'm running dvi by the way.

looks like minor banding to me

 

[deeznuts]

Originally posted by: Starbuck1975
In terms of day to day daily usage, what implications does gradient banding have on enjoyment and use of the monitor? If it doesnt make a different for normal applications or gaming, is it something to worry about?

I've never noticed it outside of tests on here. And I can't even tell the difference between vga and dvi

 

[yacoub]

It is only plainly noticeable in certain scenes in movies or games. It is noticeable in certain pictures/photos pretty readily.

Btw, people are reporting a new revision of the 2007FP with a PVA panel (replacing the S-IPS, a superior panel) that not only has just as bad banding, but all the downsides of PVA. Ugh, Dell wtf are you doing??

 

[Pipnmike]

Originally posted by: yacoub
It is only plainly noticeable in certain scenes in movies or games. It is noticeable in certain pictures/photos pretty readily.

Btw, people are reporting a new revision of the 2007FP with a PVA panel (replacing the S-IPS, a superior panel) that not only has just as bad banding, but all the downsides of PVA. Ugh, Dell wtf are you doing??

That's just ridiculous. So those idiots revised the 2007FP and thought they actually fixed the DVI problem while downgrading to a PVA panel??? I can only imagine what they'll do to the 2007WFP. What can you expect when their engineers are making probably $1 per hour?

 

[Heartbreaker]

The change to PVA has nothing to do with the issue. Dells organization isn't set up well enough to actually feed back real issues into the system. It is more checking every couple of months who will sell them the cheapest panel. Naturally there is no difference between PVA and S-IPS as far as the marketing departement is concerned so if they can get a cheaper PVA panel, you can bet that is what it will be built with.

I have one of these. I got my RMA number yester and I give up on Dell, I am not even getting one replacement because it is PVA now. Screw you Dell.

I could probably tolerate this level of banding if it was a decent IPS panel and not a crappy PVA panel. This one has less banding than some others (probably the slight blur on the panel).

 

[imported_greyhound]

Originally posted by: guidryp
I will claim that.

On my Dell 2405 which had an excellent DVI input. Going to VGA did degrade performance, you get a bit of shadow around text and a riging/echo signal type ghost.

Now on my 2007fp which has a crappier DVI that already has a bit of shadow on text, it is a bit harder to notice the degradation. But You do see a bit of ringing/echo signal type ghost.

Small effects but they are there. Also using cleartype was noticably worse on the VGA connector as well.

Sorry to hear that, though it seems like you aren't seeing a big difference. On the L2000c, I haven't noticed any difference in text from vga to dvi.

As to banding outside of photos, such as in games, it really hasn't been an issue for me, even with skies. One time I did immediately notice (coming up a tunnel toward daylight) but that scene was just as banded with vga, so it was likely the game rather than the monitor!

 

[imported_greyhound]

If you don't see the banding, then it isn't a problem. For most, photo work is the dilemna, not games or basic apps.

 

[Heartbreaker]

How bad is the L2000c banding over DVI. I will be using multiple connections so DVI to main computer is the only option. I am interested in the L2000c as it is one of very few 1600x1200 S-IPS monitors. I could live with the amount of banding on the Dell if it didn't also have a PVA panel.

It is tough to photograph this. Dell 2007fp (samsung S-PVA panel).
http://i.pbase.com/o4/04/606404/1/59586239.2007fp.png

 

[TomKazansky]

Originally posted by: Crusader
Makes me glad I have a 2005FPW with no issues. :thumbsup:

Def not trading "up" now!

makes me glad that i got the viewsonic vx for hundreds less.

 

[mpc7488]

Well, Dell locked one thread (rightly so, it was degenerating quickly), so there's just the one main thread in the Dell forums now, http://forums.us.dell.com/supportforums...d=54714&view=by_date_ascending&page=19. Hopefully there will be some kind of resolution to this.

 

[SenaterCache]

I have a 2007WFP sitting here and though there i sbanding it is minor.
I will get a pic up and will provide serial info along with that.
One thing though...I am a professional Graphic Designer and in my studio plenty of people run the Apple 20" Cinema that uses the same LG panel...The Appl eshows banding even in photoshop gradients and of course during the tests.
I will hook th e2007 I have up to my OSX 1.4.6 machine with an 9800PRO and I will test for banding under OpenGL accelerated output in OSX.
till then.

SenC.

 

[imported_greyhound]

Originally posted by: guidryp
How bad is the L2000c banding over DVI. I will be using multiple connections so DVI to main computer is the only option. I am interested in the L2000c as it is one of very few 1600x1200 S-IPS monitors. I could live with the amount of banding on the Dell if it didn't also have a PVA panel.

It is tough to photograph this. Dell 2007fp (samsung S-PVA panel).
http://i.pbase.com/o4/04/606404/1/59586239.2007fp.png

It's noticeably better than that. On gradlin2, it's barely noticeable on blue, light to moderate on green and red, but only on the dark half or the gradient, and a little worse on grayscale. For gradlin3, the banding is more pronounced in all colors but isn't as bad as what you show in that photo. How to quantify it? If 0 is best and 10 is worst, let's say you are showing a 7 in that photo, then mine is a 5. Not a huge difference but immediately apparent.

 

[Heartbreaker]

From your description it sounds like the banding is almost similar. Harder to see on blue, (well now that I turned brightness down a bit).

As it is, it is going to be rough sending this back . It is making my old CRT look really dull and soft. Now that I have a taste, I really need a new monitor. Not to many other $399 (CDN) 1600x1200 LCDs around. I really like this size and pixel pitch.

Unfortunately the L2000C is still not available in Canada.

 

[spronkey]

This really is turning into a very strange problem.

The LG and Apple models with the same (or a similar) panel are reporting the same problems, which indicates that it probably ISN'T Dell's circuitry, and instead a panel problem, while so is the 2007FP Rev2 with the SAMSUNG panel, which puts us back to square one.

The probability of the same problems with both the LGL S-IPS panel AND two models of SMS S-PVA in coincidentally identical circumstances would be VERY LOW.

But surely it can't be faulty DVI circuitry on all FIVE (6 if you include the 2407wfp which also reportedly has banding) models across three manufacturers??

Are all these monitors HDCP-compliant, per chance, where their precursors which had no problems were not? I'm not an HDCP expert but to my knowledge there's nothing a la MacroVision which could cause something like this in the HDCP standard. Anyone else know any different?

I'm not an expert on the matter, but I would guess that the possible causes for banding would be at least somewhat covered by the following list:
- gamma clipping at either end
- signal over-volting by the video card
- slightly fluctuating signal with extra sensitive circuitry (e.g. 2.88v instead of 3v or something, doesn't get detected by circuitry as the correct stage)
- damaged dvi cable corrupting signal
- physical issues with the panel (crystals not twisting enough)


We need to test some more to see if we can find the exact cause, and answer some of the following questions so that we can determine where the problem lies at least:

- Does this problem happen in all modes (Desktop, Gaming, Multimedia) ?

- Does the problem happen when the panel's settings have been reduced (e.g. colour -> 10% each or something, similar with brightness/contrast)

- Does adjusting video card's gamma and colour profiles change anything?

- Do older DVI-D cards work OK, or do they still have problems?

- Does hooking them up to an apple machine reduce/increase the problem at all?

- Does fiddling with the cable and connector do anything?

- Does cleaning the connectors with compressed air do anything?

- Are we SURE the problem doesn't happen with VGA mode?

Does anyone have access to the service menu on a 2005fpw, or 2001fp? What are the default settings? Are they the same as the 2007wfp and 2007fp? If they aren't, is the problem still there when you change settings on the 2007 series to their older counterparts' settings?

Maybe this isn't specifically a Dell problem..

 

[dnd728]

I have a bad feeling about that HDCP added circuitry, and it's only getting stronger and stronger...

 

[Heartbreaker]

It is really hard to say. Because the same people generally are not reporting on the severity of the problem on different monitors. It is hard to photograph as well. I have only seen one report of it on Apple Cinema screens, so not pervasive enough to bring into the discussion.

I get the impression from all the thread I have read that for instance:

A: The Dell 2007WFP and 2007FP (IPS version) both have worse banding than just about any other panel.
B: The Dell 2007fp (S-PVA) and Dell 2407 (S-PVA) seem to both have less banding than above, BUT there is some blur in the panels, with a shadow on text.
C: The LG L2000C has apparently less than both of the above.
D: In general the test has gotten tougher (gradlin3) and all panels have it somewhat, most less than above.

I have the 2007fp and I have posted my photo of DVI banding above. I haven't successfully photographed the blur/shadow on text but it is there and was not on my truly ultrasharp 2405, it is apparently even more obvious on the 2407 compared to the 2405. People who have both the 2007 and previous 2005/2001 report dramatically better performance on the older monitors.

The bottom line is Dells new line had much degraded performance across the board compared to their older line. So this part is a Dell problem they need to fix. I would recommend avoiding Dells monitors at this time, unless you find it fun spending an hour talking with clueless support personel or you just don't care about things like sharpness or colors consistency.

 

[SenaterCache]

Just for the record...the Apple panels I reported (2) are older than the 2007 series.
They were purchased in january or feb. Ill try to get manuf. dates. and I am working on those 2007W pics still.

 

[dnd728]

Originally posted by: guidryp
It is really hard to say...

Yeah, my guess is more like Murphy's laws based than reason...
Also, like I wrote above from inspecting one case, it seemed to act simply as a 20 bit display. I don't know about the other displays, but I guess a sharper display would also display flaws better. I think it's a good idea comparing the number of bands with those in 16 bit color (the way I did) in order to compare the different displays and learn if indeed it's the same issue.

 

[imported_greyhound]

On my L2000c, there is always less banding on VGA with test patterns but how much less depends on the test. On the circular gray to black gradient pattern, I see much banding on DVI and none on VGA. On gradlin 2, I see a little on vga, but not nearly as much as on dvi. On gradlin3, vga and dvi both look worse, with the gap between them less than before (although still noticeable).

In real life skies, Half Life 2 (day) and FEAR (night), I see no difference, both look great - no banding!

I think this is an interesting issue but this monitor is so awesome and I wouldn't even be aware of the banding but for this forum (no photo editing here), so I'm still a happy owner. Besides, I've always got vga if I need it!

 

[erwin1978]

I have an LG L1920PQ monitor and this is what the gradient looks like. The bands are about 2 milimeters apart on the even rows. Adjusting brightness appears to have impact on it as well. I didn't see any banding with the yellowpages website.

Supposedly, this is an 8 bit SIPS panel with 170° viewing angles. I found the vertical angle to be lacking.

 

[Heartbreaker]

As it stands now, I think if I could get my hands on one of the Dell 2007fp with the LG S-IPS screen, I would keep it banding and all. As is this S-PVA one is going back. I will be boxing it up today and dropping it off tomorrow at the shippers.

 

[jamesbond007]

With those of you complaining about the banding and have had multiple Dell monitors come, why not just get your money back and get a View Sonic VX2025WM? My buddy has that and there's next to no banding - you really have to look for it to see it on the gradient testing. The colors look awesome as well.

 

[Heartbreaker]

Two reasons:
1: I don't want a widescreen. I want the full 1600x1200 resolution.
2: I looked at the VX2025. It is an mva panel with nasty viewing angle issues that I can't stand. I only want a S-IPS panel.