2016 Leaf = 107 miles

[Brovane]

You aren't going to have this type of equipment at your house. It's also about 3 times the power that the Tesla superchargers currently use, and they're more a PR stunt than anything else. I mean, sure, they allow coast to coast driving, but they don't really help day to day except for the people who live near them.

You have completely missed the reason why Tesla is building the super-charging network. The point of the Tesla Super-Charger's is to allow long distance driving by Tesla EV. For the vast majority of people they drive less than 200-miles a day so a residential charger is just fine for daily driving. It is far from a PR stunt, it is a critical part of Tesla's strategy of making it practical so a EV can be more than just a second car. Tesla has continued to also upgrade the charger's. The initial charging stations were 90kw and have now moved to 120kw with some stations able to do 135kw. Once Tesla has gathered more data from the 135kw they then plan on increasing the charging rate to 150kw.

 

[Ns1]

35g's for that is ridiculous.

 

[Blanky]

The thing is, when it's cold and you're using the heat the current one doesn't get anywhere close to 84. It can be half that if conditions are bad enough: cold soak battery, heat on full (and the heat in these things isn't terribly strong), a little stop and go traffic. Add a lot of stop and go traffic and you can be in trouble. And no I am not talking out of my ass or what I read in some hater's car mag. The leaf is a great car, but its range really can suffer horribly in cold conditions. It's also one of the few cars that gets appreciably worse with age. A Prius' gas economy is similar 5 years later, a Volt's will be as well, but this thing's range is going to decrease over time more measurably. It is a fine car to lease if you think you can do the range. Resale on them is also perhaps the worst of any vehicle I've ever seen, so they can be bought used for very little and that is a good way to get one's feet wet as well

 

[smackababy]

As many strides as these car makers are making, the only real advances that need to be done are in batteries themselves. Batteries don't have the capacity to be really effective at a manageable weight. Once battery technology allows us to have batteries that can power a car a few hundred miles and don't weigh hundreds of pounds, we will get much better electric cars. And, we won't have to make all these ridiculous concessions and have to pay a ridiculous amount for one.

 

[Brovane]

The thing is, when it's cold and you're using the heat the current one doesn't get anywhere close to 84. It can be half that if conditions are bad enough: cold soak battery, heat on full (and the heat in these things isn't terribly strong), a little stop and go traffic. Add a lot of stop and go traffic and you can be in trouble. And no I am not talking out of my ass or what I read in some hater's car mag. The leaf is a great car, but its range really can suffer horribly in cold conditions. It's also one of the few cars that gets appreciably worse with age. A Prius' gas economy is similar 5 years later, a Volt's will be as well, but this thing's range is going to decrease over time more measurably. It is a fine car to lease if you think you can do the range. Resale on them is also perhaps the worst of any vehicle I've ever seen, so they can be bought used for very little and that is a good way to get one's feet wet as well

Define range decrease over time measurably?

 

[Brovane]

As many strides as these car makers are making, the only real advances that need to be done are in batteries themselves. Batteries don't have the capacity to be really effective at a manageable weight. Once battery technology allows us to have batteries that can power a car a few hundred miles and don't weigh hundreds of pounds, we will get much better electric cars. And, we won't have to make all these ridiculous concessions and have to pay a ridiculous amount for one.

Actually batteries have made great strides since the EV-1 days. Batteries have been improving about 5-7% annually. Tesla is working on now driving the cost down with the Gigafactory.

 

[smackababy]

Actually batteries have made great strides since the EV-1 days. Batteries have been improving about 5-7% annually. Tesla is working on now driving the cost down with the Gigafactory.

They have made stride, but they certainly aren't there yet. Energy to weight is still dwarfed by liquid energy (gasoline), and that even touch on refillablity. Gasoline weights around 6lbs per gallon. Until a battery that can get 200+ miles (moderate estimate of 20mpg on a car for 10 gallons) with under 100lbs of weight, is just isn't going to cut it. Even Tesla's batteries weight 8 times that.

 

[tweakmonkey]

We are so far from that power:weight ratio that it's silly to even suggest it. Batteries will never be as energy dense as gasoline but that doesn't stop people from buying Teslas (and even Leafs) in hordes here. A ~8 pound gallon of gas holds 33 kW of energy. More than a 400(?) pound Nissan leaf battery pack. Luckily electric motors are for more efficient than ICE so that helps a lot to close the gap. For you or some others electric cars don't make sense. For many others around the world they're already completely practical. They are only getting better. Many people around the world have no need or desire to drive 400 miles in a day.

 

[Brovane]

They have made stride, but they certainly aren't there yet. Energy to weight is still dwarfed by liquid energy (gasoline), and that even touch on refillablity. Gasoline weights around 6lbs per gallon. Until a battery that can get 200+ miles (moderate estimate of 20mpg on a car for 10 gallons) with under 100lbs of weight, is just isn't going to cut it. Even Tesla's batteries weight 8 times that.

A typical electric car is about 80% efficient for transferring storied energy in the batteries to move the car. A gasoline Car is about 15-20% efficient for transferring stored energy in the gasoline to move the car. Why would a battery have to match gasoline in mass/energy considering the wide discrepancies in transferring that stored energy to moving the vehicle? Also you focus on the energy storage but leave out the total mass differences in the rest of the drive train of a Gasoline/Diesel versus Electric Vehicle? I would think a true comparison would take into account the total drive train. A EV since it just has Electric motors and no transmission the overall drive train has less mass than a Gasoline/Diesel car. You are focusing to much on the energy storage and not enough on the entire package.

Yes you are able to transfer gasoline quicker than you can re-charge a battery system. However consider the differences in energy delivery. At my house I have no way to refill my gasoline car. I usually about once every 1-2 weeks drive to a gas station and put gasoline in my vehicle. In a Electric vehicle I would simply pull into my garage and plug it in. It is as simple as that, my house already has the infrastructure in-place to transfer energy to a Electric Vehicle.

 

[Blanky]

Define range decrease over time measurably?

Exactly as it sounds; range decreases measurably over time. If genuinely interested you can find more than you ever wanted to know on the issue here: http://www.mynissanleaf.com/viewforum.php?f=31&sid=e5c058ff7861590902022c587cd15c9f A new leaf comes with a full-capacity capable battery (no surprise), which is 12 bars. Over time its capacity, like any battery's capacity, will degrade. Depending on use (how much you drive, where you drive, such as a hot climate), this decrease in capacity can be minimal, or substantial. Some unlucky owners have lost as much as 3-4 bars within three years, and that seriously compromises functional range of the car. Nissan took a while to acknowledge this but has, and will replace a severely degraded battery under warranty--but only if it's severely degraded. I cannot remember the qualification; a substantially degraded battery but not one qualifying for a warranty replacement can still impact one's range.

 

[Brovane]

Exactly as it sounds; range decreases measurably over time. If genuinely interested you can find more than you ever wanted to know on the issue here: http://www.mynissanleaf.com/viewforum.php?f=31&sid=e5c058ff7861590902022c587cd15c9f A new leaf comes with a full-capacity capable battery (no surprise), which is 12 bars. Over time its capacity, like any battery's capacity, will degrade. Depending on use (how much you drive, where you drive, such as a hot climate), this decrease in capacity can be minimal, or substantial. Some unlucky owners have lost as much as 3-4 bars within three years, and that seriously compromises functional range of the car. Nissan took a while to acknowledge this but has, and will replace a severely degraded battery under warranty--but only if it's severely degraded. I cannot remember the qualification; a substantially degraded battery but not one qualifying for a warranty replacement can still impact one's range.

Thank you for that link. It appears that Nissan has made the same mistake that a lot of other auto companies have made and not not paid attention to battery management and thermal management of the battery. From reports that I have read that Tesla and GM have both seriously paid attention to battery management and thermal management in their EV/Plug-IN vehicles. Hopefully the other manufacturers will start taking this issue seriously with their EV vehicles. For the Model S the trends shows about a 5% loss in battery capacity at about 60,000 miles. Which to me is fairly manageable long term. The 2-way communication between the Model S vehicles and Tesla Motors is giving the company a incredible amount of real world data on how their battery packs function in the real world.

 

[smackababy]

A typical electric car is about 80% efficient for transferring storied energy in the batteries to move the car. A gasoline Car is about 15-20% efficient for transferring stored energy in the gasoline to move the car. Why would a battery have to match gasoline in mass/energy considering the wide discrepancies in transferring that stored energy to moving the vehicle? Also you focus on the energy storage but leave out the total mass differences in the rest of the drive train of a Gasoline/Diesel versus Electric Vehicle? I would think a true comparison would take into account the total drive train. A EV since it just has Electric motors and no transmission the overall drive train has less mass than a Gasoline/Diesel car. You are focusing to much on the energy storage and not enough on the entire package.

Yes you are able to transfer gasoline quicker than you can re-charge a battery system. However consider the differences in energy delivery. At my house I have no way to refill my gasoline car. I usually about once every 1-2 weeks drive to a gas station and put gasoline in my vehicle. In a Electric vehicle I would simply pull into my garage and plug it in. It is as simple as that, my house already has the infrastructure in-place to transfer energy to a Electric Vehicle.

I am focusing on the entire package. In order for current electric cars to travel the same distance as a ICE on a single tank of gas, the energy capacity required is a giant battery. Until that comes down, electric cars simply won't be realistic for the majority of the population. The weight of even an ICE and gasoline much less than electric motors and battery.

You're charging scenario is going to cut out a lot of people. How many Americans have a garage to charge? How many live in apartments? That is a giant chunk of people who simply can't charge at home.

 

[Ferzerp]

I am focusing on the entire package. In order for current electric cars to travel the same distance as a ICE on a single tank of gas, the energy capacity required is a giant battery. Until that comes down, electric cars simply won't be realistic for the majority of the population. The weight of even an ICE and gasoline much less than electric motors and battery.

You're charging scenario is going to cut out a lot of people. How many Americans have a garage to charge? How many live in apartments? That is a giant chunk of people who simply can't charge at home.

The only area that will improve is battery tech. Electric motors and charging tech are very mature and close enough to theoretical maximums that there is no room for breakthroughs. Batteries are where it is at. To reference the Tesla again, tight now the battery is 1200 lbs for about 75% of usable range of high range cars. The battery tech is what sets the range and what sets the charge time. "Focusing on the entire package" just causes you to not focus on the area with the easiest potential for improvement.

 

[Ferzerp]

You have completely missed the reason why Tesla is building the super-charging network. The point of the Tesla Super-Charger's is to allow long distance driving by Tesla EV. For the vast majority of people they drive less than 200-miles a day so a residential charger is just fine for daily driving. It is far from a PR stunt, it is a critical part of Tesla's strategy of making it practical so a EV can be more than just a second car. Tesla has continued to also upgrade the charger's. The initial charging stations were 90kw and have now moved to 120kw with some stations able to do 135kw. Once Tesla has gathered more data from the 135kw they then plan on increasing the charging rate to 150kw.

No. I haven't missed the point. Cross country driving just isn't something that happens often. Especially when we're talking 100k cars. Typically, one would just fly.

That said, it is effective PR. You fell for it too

 

[Brovane]

No. I haven't missed the point. Cross country driving just isn't something that happens often. Especially when we're talking 100k cars. Typically, one would just fly.

That said, it is effective PR. You fell for it too

http://supercharge.info/

If they are not used why is Tesla adding Supercharger locations in North America at the rate of about 1 every 4 days?

 

[Ferzerp]

Where did I say they aren't used? They're used plenty by people who live near them

I'd like to see how many households only have a Tesla. I know I will still have a spare vehicle.

 

[Brovane]

Where did I say they aren't used? They're used plenty by people who live near them

I'd like to see how many households only have a Tesla. I know I will still have a spare vehicle.

Actually if you read the discussion boards listed from the website I linked. The super-chargers location you can read multiple discussions of people traveling through and using the supercharger's for travelling. It is a big leap of the imagination to assume that people that own a Tesla don't travel, especially considering there is no incremental cost for using the Superchargers. Also consider the locations of some of Superchargers, Lone Pine-CA, Rapid City-SD, Lusk-WY, Green River-UT,Barstow-CA,Needles-CA, Quartsize-AZ, Yuma-CA. I am sure there is a bunch of Tesla owners that live nearby these locations......

 

[natto fire]

No. I haven't missed the point. Cross country driving just isn't something that happens often. Especially when we're talking 100k cars. Typically, one would just fly.

That said, it is effective PR. You fell for it too

Yes, you have. The cross country bit might be a stretch, but having relied on the supercharger network for our last road trip. I can tell you you are wrong. Flying was immediately discounted because it was exorbitantly cheaper to bring 4 people 800 miles in a Tesla compared to flying. To say nothing of how much more my 6'4" stature was comforted in a Tesla cabin compared to an airplane.

Although it clashed with my typical road warrior status, I actually enjoyed making the stops to refuel at SC stations. I did miss the 1 hour lead time, and being treated like a piece of shit by the TSA lackey, but it was pretty easy to overcome.

 

[Ns1]

Actually if you read the discussion boards listed from the website I linked. The super-chargers location you can read multiple discussions of people traveling through and using the supercharger's for travelling. It is a big leap of the imagination to assume that people that own a Tesla don't travel, especially considering there is no incremental cost for using the Superchargers. Also consider the locations of some of Superchargers, Lone Pine-CA, Rapid City-SD, Lusk-WY, Green River-UT,Barstow-CA,Needles-CA, Quartsize-AZ, Yuma-CA. I am sure there is a bunch of Tesla owners that live nearby these locations......

Interesting. Definitely no tesla owners near Barstow - it's basically saying tesla owners we made Los Angeles <-> Las Vegas possible.

 

[Blanky]

Thank you for that link. It appears that Nissan has made the same mistake that a lot of other auto companies have made and not not paid attention to battery management and thermal management of the battery. From reports that I have read that Tesla and GM have both seriously paid attention to battery management and thermal management in their EV/Plug-IN vehicles. Hopefully the other manufacturers will start taking this issue seriously with their EV vehicles. For the Model S the trends shows about a 5% loss in battery capacity at about 60,000 miles. Which to me is fairly manageable long term. The 2-way communication between the Model S vehicles and Tesla Motors is giving the company a incredible amount of real world data on how their battery packs function in the real world.

Yep, Nissan's lack of any active management seems to be a big part of the problem. It manifests more severely in hot climates. In a perfectly temperate climate like Oregon it is less of an issue, and even in colder climates. But, this helped keep cost down and Nissan may end up creating more robust batteries which are less effected by this.

I want to see the Leaf keep getting better, and Nissan has been bringing down its cost and increasing its range. Their very first stab at a wide scale was pretty good.

 

[KentState]

Yep, Nissan's lack of any active management seems to be a big part of the problem. It manifests more severely in hot climates. In a perfectly temperate climate like Oregon it is less of an issue, and even in colder climates. But, this helped keep cost down and Nissan may end up creating more robust batteries which are less effected by this.

I want to see the Leaf keep getting better, and Nissan has been bringing down its cost and increasing its range. Their very first stab at a wide scale was pretty good.

We will have to see if the lack of tax incentives will hurt sales. Georgia was one of the biggest states for the Leaf due to the almost free leasing of the vehicle. Going from a $50/month lease to paying $35k may be hard to swallow. At that point, a $15k Versa and $20k to spend on gas/maintenance might make more sense.

http://www.autonews.com/article/20150608/OEM05/306089953/nissan-braces-for-falling-leaf-sales

 

[Yuriman]

The question that people often ask about the Leaf is, "Could this be by only car?", and 90% really should arrive at "no", at least not without lifestyle modification. However, how many American families could have a Leaf as one of two cars, using the Leaf for short trips and the fossil-burner for extended travel?

One doesn't replace the other.

 

[KentState]

The question that people often ask about the Leaf is, "Could this be by only car?", and 90% really should arrive at "no", at least not without lifestyle modification. However, how many American families could have a Leaf as one of two cars, using the Leaf for short trips and the fossil-burner for extended travel?

One doesn't replace the other.

I don't see why a family would even bother at that point.

$16k for a Nissan Versa

12,000/31mpg = 387 gallons * $3 = $1,161 year

$35k - 16k = 19k = 16 years of gas

Tax incentives are expiring so many will be paying full price. I just don't see how the math could realistically work unless gas went up substantially. It made more sense when you could lease one for $50/month.

 

[Brovane]

I don't see why a family would even bother at that point.

$16k for a Nissan Versa

12,000/31mpg = 387 gallons * $3 = $1,161 year

$35k - 16k = 19k = 16 years of gas

Tax incentives are expiring so many will be paying full price. I just don't see how the math could realistically work unless gas went up substantially. It made more sense when you could lease one for $50/month.

Not sure how close the Federal EV tax incentives are to expiring. They will expire once Nissan hits 200k EV's sold in the US.

It isn't just gas when you factor in EV/GAS vehicles. You also have to factor in maintenance costs which are lower in a EV.

 

[Zargon]

The question that people often ask about the Leaf is, "Could this be by only car?", and 90% really should arrive at "no", at least not without lifestyle modification. However, how many American families could have a Leaf as one of two cars, using the Leaf for short trips and the fossil-burner for extended travel?

One doesn't replace the other.

yeah, my truck gets around 5k a year.

I could replace it with a leaf.

but the costs because of that just don't justify it for me at all.