2016 Leaf = 107 miles

[Kaido]

Current model has an 84-mile range, so that's a pretty big step up:

http://www.autoblog.com/2015/09/10/2016-nissan-leaf-with-107-mile-range-will-start-at-37-640/

Prices for the new Leaf start at $35,050 for the Leaf SV (up from $32,950 for the 2015), $37,640 for the Leaf SL (up from $35,970) and $28,060 for the Leaf S (no change from 2015). All prices include $850 delivery charge but not the potential federal tax incentive of $7,500.

VERY nice! This now puts it into consideration territory...an additional 23 miles is a pretty big buffer for a daily driving EV commuter car :thumbsup:

 

[PricklyPete]

That is a nice bump, but still not in the range that interests me.

 

[Ferzerp]

That is a nice bump, but still not in the range that interests me.

Leaf S at $18k (after my state's incentives as well as federal) doesn't seem like a bad option, but that range is just a killer for it.

Electrics are still not mainstream ready in the least due to battery costs. This isn't coming from any prejudice on my part. I mean, I have a Tesla on order, but it is only an option because I have a backup gasoline car and it also has two and a half to three times the range of this (I know, at 3 times the cost). If you wanted something like this, I cannot see a compelling reason to not get a Prius instead. You're already sacrificing form for function, so what shape it takes shouldn't matter much.

 

[Kaido]

That is a nice bump, but still not in the range that interests me.

My problem is, what if you have to go somewhere further? My daily commute is under 50 miles, but I had to make an emergency run to the ER not too long ago & that's what my fear is - not having enough when you need it. Stuff like the 200-mile range Chevy Bolt or Tesla Model 3 seems like a much better idea because then you get a cushion to cover 99.9% of contingencies, assuming your usage range fits within that. The new Volt OTOH seems like the perfect hybrid...50+ miles on a single charge, plus you can just use it like a regular gas car the rest of the time. And of course, I'm sure the new Prius will get even nuttier MPG than before.

 

[Yuriman]

Food for thought:

I'm looking into getting an electric bicycle to take me to work most days, rather than getting another car. We have enough vehicles that if the weather is bad I can drive (at a slight inconvenience), but if 95% of my trips will be within 10 miles and we have other vehicles, why not go electric?

The part that gets me is that it's $28,000, but I'm willing to bet there are plenty of people in a similar situation with more money to throw around.

 

[twinrider1]

Encouraged by the developments, but not for me yet.

 

[Kaido]

The part that gets me is that it's $28,000, but I'm willing to bet there are plenty of people in a similar situation with more money to throw around.

Yeah, but you have to look at the total financial picture. If you get a zero-percent 5-year loan on a $28k car, that's around $470 a month. But you're also paying 1/3 for fuel (charging up instead of filling up), or nothing at all if you charge up for free at work or other places. So if you were paying $400 a month before for gas, you're now paying less than $150 a month for gas, which suddenly adds $250 a month into your budget. That's nearly half the car payment right there, so it kind of works out. It's just not economical, at least up front...eventually you get your tax credit, plus you'll pay off the car at some point, but then again, you'll need a new battery someday, so...yeah

 

[PricklyPete]

My problem is, what if you have to go somewhere further? My daily commute is under 50 miles, but I had to make an emergency run to the ER not too long ago & that's what my fear is - not having enough when you need it. Stuff like the 200-mile range Chevy Bolt or Tesla Model 3 seems like a much better idea because then you get a cushion to cover 99.9% of contingencies, assuming your usage range fits within that. The new Volt OTOH seems like the perfect hybrid...50+ miles on a single charge, plus you can just use it like a regular gas car the rest of the time. And of course, I'm sure the new Prius will get even nuttier MPG than before.

I would be much more likely to buy a volt as a commuter car. 99% of driving on electric and an engine to back you up so no range anxiety. The one thing that bothers me about hybrids is there over complexity needed to solve the in between status we find ourselves in,

I'm likely going to wait till the range of a typical electric car is 300+ miles and recharging takes no longer than 15 mins.

That being said, if a need for a new car arises in the next few years, the volt would get a lot of my attention.

 

[Yuriman]

I would be much more likely to buy a volt as a commuter car. 99% of driving on electric and an engine to back you up so no range anxiety. The one thing that bothers me about hybrids is there over complexity needed to solve the in between status we find ourselves in,

I'm likely going to wait till the range of a typical electric car is 300+ miles and recharging takes no longer than 15 mins.

That being said, if a need for a new car arises in the next few years, the volt would get a lot of my attention.

The Volt's system is definitely appealing. I wish it got better highway mileage off electricity; ultimately it's still a fat, heavy American sedan with only average aerodynamics, but they did a fantastic job in terms of practical usability. Only thing I'd want perhaps is a Volt hatch.

Regarding hybrids and over-complexity, Honda's hybrid systems are actually just as simple and even more robust than a standard ICE. The electric motor sits in place of the flywheel and balances/smooths the engine while replacing the alternator and starter (with far greater efficiency and reliability). The car has a backup 12v starter in case the hybrid battery is low or dead. Even after a catastrophic failure of the hybrid components (which is extremely unlikley, given it's all solid state electronics) they will still function as conventional gasoline vehicles, just with less acceleration.

For kicks, yesterday I killed my gas engine using a kill switch I installed a while back (cuts power to the injectors with a relay) and put the pedal to the floor, simulating what would happen if there were a fuel system failure or if I ran out of gas. I was able to get almost 2 miles on electricity alone, using the little 13HP electric motor and the tiny 16 year old 6.5AH battery.

Toyota's system doesn't have as much redundancy, but the orbital gear transmission is far more reliable than a conventional automatic or CVT, and arguably even than a 5MT since there's no clutch to wear out. The only thing stopping a Prius from driving around for a few miles in the case of catastrophic failure of either ICE or electrical system is the computer.

 

[AdamK47]

Is there a real tangible benefit for an an electric economy car that starts at $35k?

If you're going to go with boring then go all out like I did. It only cost me $17 two days ago to fill up my $12k Chevy Spark from empty. That gas will last me 3 weeks.

 

[Yuriman]

Is there a real tangible benefit for an an electric economy car that starts at $35k?

If you're going to go with boring then go all out like I did. It only cost me $17 two days ago to fill up my $12k Chevy Spark from empty. That gas will last me 3 weeks.

It's more useful to list miles per gallon. Nobody knows how much you drive, and $17 would imply a 7 gallon tank at my local gas prices.

More practical still would be a $7,000 used Prius from the late 2000's, which will get 50% better fuel economy than your Spark and probably be more reliable too.

 

[ultimatebob]

I wouldn't be comfortable using a car like this for my daily commute unless its rated for 200 miles. My commute might only be 100 miles (both ways), but it has a ton of traffic. I'd bet that the battery life would suck when it's cold out, or if I'm blasting the AC when its hot.

I've heard that the real range of the existing Leaf models in really cold or really hot weather was more like 60 miles instead of 80 for these reasons.

 

[MustISO]

I only commute one day a week so this would actually be pretty decent for me if I were in the market for a new car. By the time my car is ready to be replaced hopefully there will be many more choices and longer ranges.

 

[AdamK47]

It's more useful to list miles per gallon. Nobody knows how much you drive, and $17 would imply a 7 gallon tank at my local gas prices.

More practical still would be a $7,000 used Prius from the late 2000's, which will get 50% better fuel economy than your Spark and probably be more reliable too.

9 gallon tank. I probably had 1 gallon left at the fill up. I drive about 100 miles a week.

Yeah, like I'd ever drive a Prius. I mean, c'mon, having to drive a Spark is bad enough already.

 

[bamx2]

I need more reserve than the new model offers. When they get to around 200mi /chg still for reason able , I will be interested

I am looking at used Prius models also- "More practical still would be a $7,000 used Prius from the late 2000's, which will get 50% better fuel economy than your Spark and probably be more reliable too."

 

[CurseTheSky]

It's not just the range that keeps me from considering an EV - it's also the ease of quickly extending that range.

My car has around a 450 mile range on gas. If I drive 400 miles, I can stop at any gas station and fill up to get another 400 miles tacked on. Rinse and repeat - I can go across the country and back as long as I have the money to do it. More realistically, I can completely change plans and drive to and from a new area without worrying about getting stranded.

With an EV, I have to hope to find a place to plug in, and then wait for the battery to charge sufficiently (versus 2-5 minutes flat to fill your gas tank). If my plans change AGAIN and I find myself driving another 30 unexpected miles, I have to do it all over again. There's a lot of hope and prayers in that situation that you wouldn't even consider driving a normal gas-engined vehicle.

If we had quick charge stations even 1/10th as common as gas stations, I'd consider it. For now, it's just not feasible for me.

 

[Yuriman]

9 gallon tank. I probably had 1 gallon left at the fill up. I drive about 100 miles a week.

Yeah, like I'd ever drive a Prius. I mean, c'mon, having to drive a Spark is bad enough already.

As far as power is concerned, a Prius has a better 0-60 time. Is it just what your friends/family would think?

 

[Ferzerp]

I'm likely going to wait till the range of a typical electric car is 300+ miles and recharging takes no longer than 15 mins.

Let's do a quick sanity check on your desire.

First, we'll assume 300 Wh/mile for efficiency (this is a good metric for what we can attain today). You want 300 mile range. That gives us 90 kWh battery needs (so, like a top end Tesla). Your range request is very reasonable and in fact can be purchased today, with the right driving habits.

Now let's look at the second part. You want to charge a 90 kWh battery in 15 minutes. Let's pretend we have an ideal battery that will accept a charge as fast as we can provide it, doesn't need any ramp up, and can safely be drained from 100% to 0% and then recharged to 100% with no ill effects (this doesn't exist, but let's pretend it does). Basically, you're looking at charging infrastructure that can provide 360kW of charging power. Let's again ignore reality and pretend that it is also 100% efficient in charging. You're not going to be carting around an inverter of that magnitude in your car, so you're going to be using DC charging with an external inverter. You're probably also going to be using 480V DC power for this (or rather 500, but 480 makes the math easy!). This means your 15 minute charger is going to have to supply 750A @ 450V to make your desires a reality. That's not going to be cheap. Even the wire would be unwieldy. You'd be looking at a conductor around a quarter inch thick.

You aren't going to have this type of equipment at your house. It's also about 3 times the power that the Tesla superchargers currently use, and they're more a PR stunt than anything else. I mean, sure, they allow coast to coast driving, but they don't really help day to day except for the people who live near them.


disclaimer: I am not an electrical engineer.


edit: I concentrated on the power delivery aspect of it because that is a very mature area where we can't expect massive gains, just to illustrate exactly what you're looking for.

 

[AdamK47]

As far as power is concerned, a Prius has a better 0-60 time. Is it just what your friends/family would think?

Who even considers 0 to 60 times when buying a Prius? Slow is slow. I'm okay with the 84hp my Spark offers as long as it gets me to and from work and gets me 36+ mpg.

If I want better 0 to 60 times I'll drive my modified 2015 SS.

 

[michal1980]

or if you live in CO, you can get the current leaf for ~11 grand.

 

[Yuriman]

Who even considers 0 to 60 times when buying a Prius? Slow is slow. I'm okay with the 84hp my Spark offers as long as it gets me to and from work and gets me 36+ mpg.

If I want better 0 to 60 times I'll drive my modified 2015 SS.

Well, the Spark is slower, and gets worse mileage. :awe:

 

[AdamK47]

It cost me 12K new, has a good warranty, gets good gas mileage, and has a manual transmission (my preference).

I only questioned why someone would spend $35k on an economy car. It's can't be to save money by not buying gas.

 

[Ferzerp]

It cost me 12K new, has a good warranty, gets good gas mileage, and has a manual transmission (my preference).

I only questioned why someone would spend $35k on an economy car. It's can't be to save money by not buying gas.

It's more like 20--30k with the tax credit (plus whatever your state does).

The ev tax credits are really dumb though. Let's give tax breaks to the people well enough off to buy a battery powered car. There is no reason why I should get a $7500 reduced tax burden in my federal income tax and a $2500 check from my state for buying a $100k car, but I'm not so idealistic that I am going to turn down the money.

 

[natto fire]

It's not just the range that keeps me from considering an EV - it's also the ease of quickly extending that range.

My car has around a 450 mile range on gas. If I drive 400 miles, I can stop at any gas station and fill up to get another 400 miles tacked on. Rinse and repeat - I can go across the country and back as long as I have the money to do it. More realistically, I can completely change plans and drive to and from a new area without worrying about getting stranded.

With an EV, I have to hope to find a place to plug in, and then wait for the battery to charge sufficiently (versus 2-5 minutes flat to fill your gas tank). If my plans change AGAIN and I find myself driving another 30 unexpected miles, I have to do it all over again. There's a lot of hope and prayers in that situation that you wouldn't even consider driving a normal gas-engined vehicle.

If we had quick charge stations even 1/10th as common as gas stations, I'd consider it. For now, it's just not feasible for me.

Just got back from my first road trip in a BEV, 800+ miles round trip in my friend's Model S. While I am usually a road warrior and try to put 300 miles under my belt before a stop, I was pleasantly surprised how well it went with the superchargers and we traded stop time for numerous stops. The longest we were at a charger was around 45 minutes, which aligned with a good time to get a proper sit down meal on the way there and back.

Only one leg of our trip did we run into range anxiety, and even that was easily fixed by driving slower, which is hard to do with a P85D.

I agree it is not as convenient as just gassing up and going, but we essentially made our trip for free, as we were not in a huge hurry. Got stuck in a traffic jam in Maryland, and it was brilliant to not be cooking brakes and instead recouping some of the lost energy.

Tesla makes it much easier to plan your route, since the in-car nav system knows where the superchargers are, and it's UI is superior to any system I have used.

While this next shift, which is definitely coming, basically revolves around the battery, there is no doubt in my mind about electric motors having a distinct edge over Otto gasoline or Diesel cycle ICE.

We already have a way to expend the energy in a gloriously simplified way, with the added bonus of recapturing much of it, but the storage is the problem. Always has, always will be. I'm not sure of GM's intentions, and they could have massaged the EV1 and Saturn to really come out ahead in this game they are playing catch up to now. They clearly have the capital and supply connections to bring BEVs into mainstream thinking. Maybe we will skip diesels and go right to electric motors, it works for trains after all.

 

[hans007]

i don't really think an electric is meant to be a primary car.

like you really have to have a house to have an electric as it is, and strangely enough all the places where electrics make sense (very urban areas) houses are super expensive.

i live in LA. a decent condo in a decent part of town is like half a million dollars.

do i care at all that a leaf is $5k less than some other electric. probably not if i own a place that has an electric charging port as it is (and a lot of condos wont have it, which means a house which is even more money. so really the pricing in urban areas barely matters, since anyone with a $800k house, $5k isn't really killing you, i think).


honestly i'd probably be someone where an electric car makes sense. i live in an apartment .... but i live 2.2 miles from my office. on a given day , i drive maybe 15 miles if i do something after work. but i cant even charge an electric. i live in LA, and occasionally drive down to even orange county, and thats the entire range of the car there and back.

maybe when the chevy bolt comes out it would make sense. but i'd still need a place to charge it. when EVER stall in apartments starts having charge ports in urban areas electrics will make tons more sense imho. as it is now, even if i had a place to charge it, i'd still probably want a gas car for anytime i made a trip that wasn't just to work or the gym or something. which just means an even bigger more expensive place to live.

if electrics are really for urban dwellers, well its for rich urban dwellers...