Indeed.
I'm not even joking, but this subforum has somehow turned into a bigger cesspit than CPU, Video, Mobile, Console, and P&N (ok, maybe not on the latter, but there's some glaring similarities). Seems like every thread I read on here devolves into complete nonsensical arguing about stupid crap that only tangentially involves cars at all.
If it's not Jules whining that highly modified for specific use versions of already niche vehicles are expensive and suck for being a comfy daily driver (because that's what he cares about, which he goes out of his way to point out that he doesn't care about the aspects of the cars he's commenting on, so why he's even reading let alone posting about them...). We get it Jules, you hate Dodge/Chrysler and the Viper ACR and Demon would be awful daily drivers for you. Yes you're better off spending your similar and probably substantially less money on your Mercedes. It's really at the point that you need your own thread like Trident so you can whine about random nonsense, dropping some car names here and there, but then making bizarre comparisons and odd conjecture.
Let that sink in, Trident is one of the least annoying posters in this subforum now.
My professor in college that was cross shopping manual V-8 convertible Mustang with a Prius have more logic than many of the threads in here. Unfortunately it seems to be just a few posters constantly pushing things this way (but why people keep responding to them, I simply do not get).
We can also discuss more about the performance side should such typical car folks ever venture onto a racetrack once in a blue moon, but you get the sense where this is going.
Yes please. Your insights are fascinating. I feel all light and bubbly. I will crack open a Blue moon, pull the lever on my lazy boy, and watch me some nascar. Life is good. I still would really love to drive a Dodge Demon some day. Thanks for reminding me.
In a sense the manufacturers really screwed themselves with sports cars by answering to enthusiasts instead of potential customers. Instead of creating a market for the enjoyment of driving it's always about bigger numbers ie. basically paper racing, and without creating some need for their tool to fulfill a 500hp SUV becomes just as good. Sports car sales numbers are in dumps, and it's not hard to see why.
The Lotus Elise never sold in big numbers either though. Only track day enthusiasts really bought them. They're great cars but really tough to live with as a daily driver.
Sports car sales are in the dumps because they're not very practical and practical seems to be "cool" these days.
It's simply a matter of factual reality that cars are foremost tools to fit some role in the physical world. It also makes sense in a somewhat technical forum to consider them as such instead of fashion accessories/toys.
In that vein, cars of a general type/weight category handle/drive similarly when not driven near the limit. For example, for typical "twisty" roads marked ~35mph or so, a generic economy rental can easy do 80-90mph, and a performance car somewhat higher. At above those speeds the much spoken of terms such as over/understeer balance start to matter, but the reality as mentioned is cars are typically driven well below them.
So for your professor, the prius and mustang are for the most part functionally equivalent, and he's just deciding on the personal image to present, which the ecosystem of marketing PR will help convey. In this case, a prius will present an image of enviro responsibility, etc , while a v8 mustang will convey the bad boy, even a "car guy". Had he sought to venture further into the latter ground, an STI/Evo would present a slightly differing fashion image than american muscle. Or even deeper, someone who would throw money at forced induction vs. suspension.
We can also discuss more about the performance side should such typical car folks ever venture onto a racetrack once in a blue moon, but you get the sense where this is going.
What I'm arguing is that "cool" in contemporary times is up to a point created/defined by modern marketing. Nobody really "needs" a massive SUV, yet there was a concerted effort to brand them as the cars to get. Similarly, "cool" for "car guys" was defined as bigger/badder numbers.
The difference between this sort of fashion trend and a lasting market is that the latter coincides with actual utility, whereas the former comes and goes just like massive SUVs, or ridiculous engines. So what I was getting at is the two are not mutually exclusive, there's no rule saying that only vapid attributes are conducive to promotion. For example, previous bmw owners are known to be loyal due to how well the cars drove, for sedans at least. Yet now they're engaged in the same HP/"performance" war with the rest of the industry which is only ruinous competition.
In general the industry has been pouring money into bigger/badder/"faster" and shunning cars with a good analog feel, and enthusiasts have only abided by that PR thrust to their own detriment & destruction.
Should I run all my future posts by you first?
BMW M6.
Yes it's true. I hate Dodge.
Maserati.
I like the specs, but the Challenger is my least favorite body of the pony/muscle cars. Personal preference, of course, but to me it looks dated, but not in a classic way. Much prefer the look of the Mustang and Camaro over it, and with Camaro there's The Exorcist to rival it.
The Lotus Elise never sold in big numbers either though. Only track day enthusiasts really bought them. They're great cars but really tough to live with as a daily driver.
Sports car sales are in the dumps because they're not very practical and practical seems to be "cool" these days.
AMG GT
What I'm arguing is that "cool" in contemporary times is up to a point created/defined by modern marketing. Nobody really "needs" a massive SUV, yet there was a concerted effort to brand them as the cars to get. Similarly, "cool" for "car guys" was defined as bigger/badder numbers.
The difference between this sort of fashion trend and a lasting market is that the latter coincides with actual utility, whereas the former comes and goes just like massive SUVs, or ridiculous engines. So what I was getting at is the two are not mutually exclusive, there's no rule saying that only vapid attributes are conducive to promotion. For example, previous bmw owners are known to be loyal due to how well the cars drove, for sedans at least. Yet now they're engaged in the same HP/"performance" war with the rest of the industry which is only ruinous competition.
In general the industry has been pouring money into bigger/badder/"faster" and shunning cars with a good analog feel, and enthusiasts have only abided by that PR thrust to their own detriment & destruction.
Blah blah blah blah.
Blah blah blah blah. Wank wank wank.
Blah blah blah blah.
Blah blah blah blah.
Blah blah blah blah.
Blah blah blah blah.
Blah blah blah blah.
Blah blah blah blah.
Where are you guys getting that sports car sales suck? The Miata, Corvette (it's selling well enough they're possibly going make it a brand and offer more versions of it), and Porsche (likewise they're expanding their model lineup, and offering more and more niche veresions of their already lauded sports cars) all sell well. Higher end ones are struggling with the fact that they might be producing/selling too many and hurting their elitist brand image. Oh, and that's if you refuse to accept that both the Camaro and Mustang are full on sports cars now.
Blah blah blah blah.
Unless you're one of those people that insist that sports car means 2 seats, rear wheel drive and manual transmission and insist on it being brand new, complaining about the state of sports cars today is like people complaining about how "shitty everything is" despite it being pretty much the total opposite and people just needing to feel that way to justify their f-ed in the head cynicism.
Except that you're not even discussing the actual car this thread is about. You absolutely are one of the few people that consistently derails threads by making them about your mad skills and how everyone else sucks and therefore your opinions matter more.
If you want to talk about that make your own asinine thread and stop derailing so many others trying to force your pedantic "I'm a proper driver" crap into threads about specific cars just makes this subforum a place people don't go.
Only in general sense do cars of similar type drive similarly, but for someone pushing the idea that even enthusiasts don't care about handling feel (and thus copping a tone like you really do), you're grossly simplifying things. Generic economy car can do 90mph on 35mph rated twisty roads and performance cars can do "somewhat" higher? Only above 90 (or the "somewhat higher") does steering balance matter? Holy hell, don't you brag about driving carts? Don't most of those top out at like 100mph (since they're used on tracks where they might hit that on a straightaway)? Pretty sure steering balance matters at far more speeds than that. (Else we wouldn't be getting all the hilarious shadenfreude of people wrecking their expensive cars by mashing the throttle from a deadstop and losing control and crashing them.)
And?
You just stated a common sense rational that applies to almost any popular industry. You obviously know this since you used the phrase fashion trend. We could change some wording in your statements and be talking about blue jeans. So who cares?
Why does it bother you so much that you need to drive home the point that modern cars that are racish or trackish or have big numbers don't really replicate true race or track cars? No shit they don't
Why does it bother you that marketing exists to encourage people to buy stuff?
Why are you putting quotes around "cool" and "car guys" providing a negative connotation just because they like things you believe are silly or directed?
Why are nearly all(or all) of your posts so incredibly pessimistic? It gives me the impression this is how you socialize with others around you. You get attention because you point out the negative in everything causing conflict.
You're up around 25 posts a day on this forum. I bet if I challenged you to only make positive comments for 1 week you would not succeed.
The lasting market? There is no lasting market. It is ever changing.
People buy what they want to buy based on their needs whether perceived or not. That will never change.
I'm not and perhaps suck was too harsh a word (not my word by the way) but sports car sales represent maybe 10% of all passenger vehicle sales in this country? And they are up and down across different makes and models.
I would say that this is a good time to be a car guy though. Plenty of options for the power junkies.
Easy on Jules, Darkswordsmen. He is a "car guy" like the rest of us. None our tastes will completely align with each other, Jules is just slightly more poignant on the matter.
However he values cars that are purpose built to enthusiast or folks that have a somewhat discerning taste. Like us, cars are not just utility like agent00f pretends they should be, who is stuck in some world that quite honestly sounds like pure hell. A prisoner of his own ego.
Personally I think the Demon is an awesome showing from Dodge for all the reasons already stated in the thread. It still boggles my mind that a car you can drive off the factory floor will run a 9.65 and pull the front wheels for three feet. Back in the muscle car heyday, the fastest cars were in the 12's. Pretty nuts to think that the Demon knocks almost 3 seconds off the 427 Cobra's 1/4 mile time.
Might as well put it here. Gotta hand it to Dodge.
The Demon 170
A street car with over 1000hp, 1.66sec 0-60 and runs a sub 9 second quarter mile. And a factory option parachute? Simply insane.