2018 NBA playoff's

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Muse

Lifer
Jul 11, 2001
38,382
8,684
136
I'm not convinced wilt would dominate today. He mostly played against 6'5 guys at center. I suspect hedh be average at best just like Javale McGee if he lived in the 50s would probably also score hundreds a game.

Wilt was physically ultra-dominating in his day. If he came into today's game as a youngster, with the emphasis on strength and conditioning that exists today, he'd likely be that much more powerful and conditioned. He'd likely dominate today, he was that genetically gifted. Javale McGee wouldn't stand a chance against Wilt under those conditions. Shaquille? I don't know.
 
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Muse

Lifer
Jul 11, 2001
38,382
8,684
136
Draymond happens to be in a situation where he doesn't even get guarded because there are so many other threats out on the court concurrently. On pretty much any other team, he might be a bench player.
Draymond doesn't worry himself about his offense. He's a powerful finisher, dishes the ball (a lot of assists), is a great rebounder, has very average points/game stats, and he doesn't care. He's a defensive specialist, is like a coach on the defensive end, is constantly telling his teammates what adjustments to make on the fly. It surprised me when I heard this, but I hear it again and again that he's in many respects the MVP of the team. This is partly because of the personalities of his teammates, but IMO he'd star on most other NBA teams. He should work more on his 3 point shot. It's always wide open, not off the dribble, but spot-up. He makes alot of them, but not enough. If he works on it harder, it'll improve. Like the other Warriors all stars, he's very smart.
 
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Majes

Golden Member
Apr 8, 2008
1,164
148
106
Let's look at a few teams in the playoffs this year
Cleveland he wouldn't start over Thompson and love
Boston he wouldn't start over horford and on any given night morris is a better player
Toronto he might have a shot as their 4 is a revolving door
Pacers he wouldn't start
Washington he wouldn't start over the other Morris and their big guy
Milwaukee he might
Probably wouldn't start in Miami (and probably would the even make the roster as they are very deep at his position)

In the west he wouldn't start in Houston , might start in San Antonio, wouldn't in Milwaukee, new new orleans either. That's just a quick snapshot of the league.

He's a 6'6 guy drafted 35th in the second round with fairly average college stats. His NBA stats are also pretty average and on offense no one guards him. If you actually watch the games and see how he plays in the rare situations he is guarded, he atrocious. However usually when he gets the ball it's a 4 on 5 situation and so his assist numbers are inflated. He isn't a bad player but everyone including Draymond knows what he is (thus why he didnt even test free agency and just had the warriors re do his deal). There are a lot of guys who play with LeBron or some other super star and look good and then go elsewhere and fall off the map. All I'm saying is Draymond is basically a role player in a sweet situation where his issues are masked.

Yikes... We differ a lot here.
I most certainly would start him over Tristan Thompson, though Love and James are both better.
I wouldn't start him over Horford, but he could take Baynes starting spot. He is also a better player than Morris by quite a bit.
For the Pacers I'd start him over Young, Bogdanovic, or Turner. Though Young and Turner make it a tough choice.
Milwaukee is tough, but he is better than all their options at C...
Miami has some similar options but I honestly think he is better than all of them...

Out West
In Houston I'd start him over Ariza or Tucker. Capella would be a better choice of course. In New Orleans he would be better than E'Twaun Moore, though he isn't replacing AD, and Mirotic is a different type of player that I value pretty highly.

Are you only judging him by scoring? I can understand your argument if that's the case, but there are a lot of other important things in a basketball game. He does the scoring part averagely, but he excels at the other aspects.
 

homebrew2ny

Senior member
Jan 3, 2013
610
61
91
No doubt Draymond fills a very specific role, but I honestly believe he could find a home in the starting 5 of many/most teams.
 

manly

Lifer
Jan 25, 2000
11,836
2,795
136
Regardless, he signaled for a timeout with time left on the clock. 1 or 2 seconds doesn't really matter, either way it's inbound turn and shoot.
http://www.espn.com/nba/story/_/id/23705847/lebron-james-says-new-huddle-video-shows-angst-out

LeBron admits he didn't know the timeout situation for sure. Like I said, he'll only get the timeout granted if a ref sees it.

As for Draymond Green, I'm pretty sure he's not an All-Star on any other NBA team. IMO he's vastly overrated because he plays with Steph and Klay, who exert massive "gravity" on defenders. Having said that, the Dubs benefit greatly from the "grit and grind" that he provides. I was gonna type "dirty work" but a lot of his flailing and kicking is the wrong type of "dirty."
 

Muse

Lifer
Jul 11, 2001
38,382
8,684
136
No doubt Draymond fills a very specific role, but I honestly believe he could find a home in the starting 5 of many/most teams.
He's no role player. He is irrepressible. It's hard to appreciate what he means to the team. I don't get to see much NBA action, I just have OTA TV, but I watch the Warriors when I can. Even went to a sports bar twice during the Rockets/Warriors series. I do read the sports section in the S.F. Chronicle. That stuff is way better than the junk you hear on TV in terms of critical reporting. That stuff is poison sometimes if not ludicrous.
 

Ns1

No Lifer
Jun 17, 2001
55,418
1,599
126
this is hilarious, you guys are basically playing a text/imagination version of fantasy basketball without any of the payoff.
 
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dasherHampton

Platinum Member
Jan 19, 2018
2,543
488
96
I just turned on the final in time to see the Warriors dunk to take a 103-100 lead.

And then I saw again, with my own two eyes, why Lebron is great, Lebron is fantastic, but Lebron is not the GOAT.

With his team down three points with possibly a minute or so to play in their season (they're not coming back from 3-0) he was one on one with Curry, who looks like a dwarf next to him. Instead of immediately taking advantage of the mismatch like Kobe or MJ would have he hesitantly backed his way in, let the defense get set, and decided to meekly pass the ball instead of taking it to hole. HIs teammate missed, KD hit the three, game set match.

He had his legacy on his shoulders and it was too much.
 

Majes

Golden Member
Apr 8, 2008
1,164
148
106
I just turned on the final in time to see the Warriors dunk to take a 103-100 lead.

And then I saw again, with my own two eyes, why Lebron is great, Lebron is fantastic, but Lebron is not the GOAT.

With his team down three points with possibly a minute or so to play in their season (they're not coming back from 3-0) he was one on one with Curry, who looks like a dwarf next to him. Instead of immediately taking advantage of the mismatch like Kobe or MJ would have he hesitantly backed his way in, let the defense get set, and decided to meekly pass the ball instead of taking it to hole. HIs teammate missed, KD hit the three, game set match.

He had his legacy on his shoulders and it was too much.

Like most people I've been shocked and infuriated by ESPN's campaign over the past few months to proclaim Lebron > MJ. They've gotten my clicks and my views, but they've lost my respect.
He just isn't a better basketball player.

ESPN has tried to tell me that making the finals is just as good or better than winning the finals. They tried to tell me that beating a run down Warriors team in 2016 was worth more than one championship. They tried to tell me that since Lebron wasn't favored in most of his finals he shouldn't be expected to win them.

Those arguments are terrible and the fact that they use them to proclaim Lebron greatest proves he is not.
 

purbeast0

No Lifer
Sep 13, 2001
53,021
5,898
126
I just turned on the final in time to see the Warriors dunk to take a 103-100 lead.

And then I saw again, with my own two eyes, why Lebron is great, Lebron is fantastic, but Lebron is not the GOAT.

With his team down three points with possibly a minute or so to play in their season (they're not coming back from 3-0) he was one on one with Curry, who looks like a dwarf next to him. Instead of immediately taking advantage of the mismatch like Kobe or MJ would have he hesitantly backed his way in, let the defense get set, and decided to meekly pass the ball instead of taking it to hole. HIs teammate missed, KD hit the three, game set match.

He had his legacy on his shoulders and it was too much.
Considering you JUST turned the game on when there were seconds left and saw 1 play, you missed about 30 other times that same mismatch happened the entire game and he did exactly what you are talking about. Teams adjust and he kept switching it up as to how he handled it.

You may want to watch more than 30 seconds of a game before making dumb comments about it.
 
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Red Storm

Lifer
Oct 2, 2005
14,233
234
106
LeBron is an amazing, all time great basketball player, but I do agree with the notion that he needs to be more selfish in crunch time and use his skills to think score first rather than pass in those situations. He's definitely made some tough, clutch shots over his career, but overall he can't quite create scoring opportunities for himself quite like Jordan or Kobe could. This does become a problem when your team mates aren't making shots. That's one reason why him and Kyrie worked so well together. When they needed that ISO shot-creating in game closing moments Kyrie was a great option (like at the end of Game 7 during their championship run).

Durant was amazing last night, but the dude has so little pressure on him compared to Lebron. I still can't get over how spineless it was to sign with the Warriors.
 
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Muse

Lifer
Jul 11, 2001
38,382
8,684
136
I just turned on the final in time to see the Warriors dunk to take a 103-100 lead.

And then I saw again, with my own two eyes, why Lebron is great, Lebron is fantastic, but Lebron is not the GOAT.

With his team down three points with possibly a minute or so to play in their season (they're not coming back from 3-0) he was one on one with Curry, who looks like a dwarf next to him. Instead of immediately taking advantage of the mismatch like Kobe or MJ would have he hesitantly backed his way in, let the defense get set, and decided to meekly pass the ball instead of taking it to hole. HIs teammate missed, KD hit the three, game set match.

He had his legacy on his shoulders and it was too much.
I don't like Lebron's game. Granted, I'm biased (Dubs fan), but seeing him muscle his way in, fend off his primary defender with is off arm and lay it off the glass time and again, or throw up a 5 footer, that doesn't impress me as great basketball. Yes, he's better than that. Also, watching him pass to his spot-up 3 point shooters, well, he's fantastically good at that, but to me that doesn't look like dynamic basketball. It works, yeah, but it's not an exciting game.
 

Muse

Lifer
Jul 11, 2001
38,382
8,684
136
Like most people I've been shocked and infuriated by ESPN's campaign over the past few months to proclaim Lebron > MJ. They've gotten my clicks and my views, but they've lost my respect.
He just isn't a better basketball player.

ESPN has tried to tell me that making the finals is just as good or better than winning the finals. They tried to tell me that beating a run down Warriors team in 2016 was worth more than one championship. They tried to tell me that since Lebron wasn't favored in most of his finals he shouldn't be expected to win them.

Those arguments are terrible and the fact that they use them to proclaim Lebron greatest proves he is not.
ESPN is a major reason I don't have subscription TV. I have to endure them when they do ABC broadcasts and am offended by their style, majorly. I'm still tempted to get cable/dish or whatever, but I know there's a downside. I'm OTA with occasional trips to a sports bar.
 

eng2d2

Golden Member
Nov 7, 2013
1,007
38
91
I was wrong in my assessment that cleveland will take game 3 but this time you can't blame the ref because most calls were for cleveland but warriors manage to take game 3 . Good job warriors.
 

Muse

Lifer
Jul 11, 2001
38,382
8,684
136
Durant was amazing last night, but the dude has so little pressure on him compared to Lebron. I still can't get over how spineless it was to sign with the Warriors.
Get over it, what's your problem? OKC wasn't working out for him. The Warriors all-stars reached out to him. He's on a great team in a great region with a great coach. He's in a self-less locker room. He's about to get his 2nd ring, good chance a 2nd MVP Finals trophy. He just played one of the greatest games of his life, was a cold blooded Cavs-killer ...when his teammates were totally struggling, he carried the team. That was an awesome performance. Give him his props!
 
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Red Storm

Lifer
Oct 2, 2005
14,233
234
106
Get over it, what's your problem? OKC wasn't working out for him. The Warriors all-stars reached out to him. He's on a great team in a great region with a great coach. He's in a self-less locker room. He's about to get his 2nd ring, good chance a 2nd MVP Finals trophy. He just played one of the greatest games of his life, was a cold blooded Cavs-killer ...when his teammates were totally struggling, he carried the team. That was an awesome performance. Give him his props!
My problem is it created a real parity issue in the league. It directly destroyed one title contender in OKC and boosted the already top contender. I have zero problem with the Warriors team or their players, they are just doing their job trying to make their team as good as possible. My problem is solely with Durant. Dude is supposed to be the 2nd best player in the league. When you almost beat a historically great team like they did, the 2nd best player in the league is not supposed to think "I wanna join these dudes!" Whether it's at the professional level or even at your local gym, when one team is clearly the best, you don't see the other best players jumping to join them. There's that competitive spirit that should drive such players to want to beat that team, to take the challenge head on. Durant did none of that, he acted like an old ring chasing veteran at the tail end of his career bandwagoning onto the best team to get a ring. In terms of competitive spirit it's disgraceful. Again, the Warriors did what they're supposed to do by trying to recruit players and improve their team, but superstars jumping from their own good teams to even better ones that beat them looks bad, and also hurts the parity of the league. Game 7 between Houston and Golden State this year was the first time I've actually been intrigued about the end result since Game 7 between Cleveland and Golden State several years ago. Golden State fans won't see or feel that, and that's fine they should enjoy their team. But the rest of the league's fans certainly notice it.
 

Majes

Golden Member
Apr 8, 2008
1,164
148
106
My problem is it created a real parity issue in the league. It directly destroyed one title contender in OKC and boosted the already top contender. I have zero problem with the Warriors team or their players, they are just doing their job trying to make their team as good as possible. My problem is solely with Durant. Dude is supposed to be the 2nd best player in the league. When you almost beat a historically great team like they did, the 2nd best player in the league is not supposed to think "I wanna join these dudes!" Whether it's at the professional level or even at your local gym, when one team is clearly the best, you don't see the other best players jumping to join them. There's that competitive spirit that should drive such players to want to beat that team, to take the challenge head on. Durant did none of that, he acted like an old ring chasing veteran at the tail end of his career bandwagoning onto the best team to get a ring. In terms of competitive spirit it's disgraceful. Again, the Warriors did what they're supposed to do by trying to recruit players and improve their team, but superstars jumping from their own good teams to even better ones that beat them looks bad, and also hurts the parity of the league. Game 7 between Houston and Golden State this year was the first time I've actually been intrigued about the end result since Game 7 between Cleveland and Golden State several years ago. Golden State fans won't see or feel that, and that's fine they should enjoy their team. But the rest of the league's fans certainly notice it.

As a Warriors fan I fully understand and agree with this. But the problem I had with it is that it basically murdered Steph Curry's game. Yes, he will have more rings, but he is no longer the player we got to enjoy before KD showed up. I loved watching Steph tear up the league playing a style only the Spurs came close to. Now we get glimpses of that, but we're missing out on something I thought was truly special. What we have now is just nonchalant dominance.
 
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ChrisAttebery

Member
Nov 10, 2003
118
3
81
I read a report that he wants to talk to the Warriors after the season is over. I doubt that Warriors would ever sign him because he wouldn't fit in with the team. The Warriors all gel because Steph is FUN to be around and doesn't have an ego.

This is a good article on the subject:
http://www.espn.com/nba/story/_/id/23653701/nba-how-steph-curry-ignites-golden-state-warriors

Can you imagine LeBron working in or creating that environment? I can't.


how much criticism will lebron get if he signs with the warriors?
 

Red Storm

Lifer
Oct 2, 2005
14,233
234
106
As a Warriors fan I fully understand and agree with this. But the problem I had with it is that it basically murdered Steph Curry's game. Yes, he will have more rings, but he is no longer the player we got to enjoy before KD showed up. I loved watching Steph tear up the league playing a style only the Spurs came close to. Now we get glimpses of that, but we're missing out on something I thought was truly special. What we have now is just nonchalant dominance.
Me too man, me too. Pre-KD Steph was so fun to watch. He's still exciting, but it's not what it used to be.
 

manly

Lifer
Jan 25, 2000
11,836
2,795
136
LeBron is an amazing, all time great basketball player, but I do agree with the notion that he needs to be more selfish in crunch time and use his skills to think score first rather than pass in those situations. He's definitely made some tough, clutch shots over his career, but overall he can't quite create scoring opportunities for himself quite like Jordan or Kobe could. This does become a problem when your team mates aren't making shots. That's one reason why him and Kyrie worked so well together. When they needed that ISO shot-creating in game closing moments Kyrie was a great option (like at the end of Game 7 during their championship run).

Durant was amazing last night, but the dude has so little pressure on him compared to Lebron. I still can't get over how spineless it was to sign with the Warriors.
This old trope about Kobe needs to be retired. Yes, he's made a number of clutch shots in his career, because he missed about 70% of the attempts. For most NBA players, the sample sizes on "clutch time" shots are relatively small so it's hard to say if a guy is clutch or not. There's enough data on Kobe to say fairly confidently that his reputation way exceeds his actual performance.

Despite small sample sizes, Michael Jordan was definitely clutch statistically. Another reason he's the GOAT.

As for LeBron, he's a basketball player. He's not wired like Kobe (thank God) and he's always looking to make the right basketball play. Some may argue that he shirks superstar responsibility in key moments, but that's a debate for the ages. Hypothetically, if you can take a contesteed 33% shot vs. passing to an open teammate who can take a 45% shot, what should you do? Kobe Bryant never ever thought of it this way, and it's hilarious that many salute him for it.
 

Red Storm

Lifer
Oct 2, 2005
14,233
234
106
This old trope about Kobe needs to be retired. Yes, he's made a number of clutch shots in his career, because he missed about 70% of the attempts. For most NBA players, the sample sizes on "clutch time" shots are relatively small so it's hard to say if a guy is clutch or not. There's enough data on Kobe to say fairly confidently that his reputation way exceeds his actual performance.

Despite small sample sizes, Michael Jordan was definitely clutch statistically. Another reason he's the GOAT.

As for LeBron, he's a basketball player. He's not wired like Kobe (thank God) and he's always looking to make the right basketball play. Some may argue that he shirks superstar responsibility in key moments, but that's a debate for the ages. Hypothetically, if you can take a contesteed 33% shot vs. passing to an open teammate who can take a 45% shot, what should you do? Kobe Bryant never ever thought of it this way, and it's hilarious that many salute him for it.
I'm not talking about clutch time stats, I'm talking about creating scoring opportunities for yourself when your team needs it or the situation demands it. Lebron loves to pass and find his team mates which works great for him 99% of the time, but it's that 1% of the time when he either has a mismatch or needs to be selfish and score when his team mates are crapping the bed that he just doesn't quite have. And I get it, it goes against his normal style of play, but he's the best in the world right now, so the expectation to be able to switch mindset/styles is not really out of this world. He's never really had much of a pull up mid-range game, and it wasn't as obvious an issue when Kyrie was with him, but now it's more apparent.

Basically, exactly what KD did last night is what Lebron needs to be able to do in brief spurts.

maybe he's tired of having to carry a team on his back? maybe he's ready to have a little fun?

The problem with adding Lebron is that it's not just one player, it's an entire system. Everything runs through Lebron, he doesn't gel with controlling coaches, and he wants the team to play his way. The problem is when he leaves your team is in a sucky financial and personnel situation.
 
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Muse

Lifer
Jul 11, 2001
38,382
8,684
136
My problem is it created a real parity issue in the league. It directly destroyed one title contender in OKC and boosted the already top contender. I have zero problem with the Warriors team or their players, they are just doing their job trying to make their team as good as possible. My problem is solely with Durant. Dude is supposed to be the 2nd best player in the league. When you almost beat a historically great team like they did, the 2nd best player in the league is not supposed to think "I wanna join these dudes!" Whether it's at the professional level or even at your local gym, when one team is clearly the best, you don't see the other best players jumping to join them. There's that competitive spirit that should drive such players to want to beat that team, to take the challenge head on. Durant did none of that, he acted like an old ring chasing veteran at the tail end of his career bandwagoning onto the best team to get a ring. In terms of competitive spirit it's disgraceful. Again, the Warriors did what they're supposed to do by trying to recruit players and improve their team, but superstars jumping from their own good teams to even better ones that beat them looks bad, and also hurts the parity of the league. Game 7 between Houston and Golden State this year was the first time I've actually been intrigued about the end result since Game 7 between Cleveland and Golden State several years ago. Golden State fans won't see or feel that, and that's fine they should enjoy their team. But the rest of the league's fans certainly notice it.
If what KD did was such a bad personal decision why is he thriving? Yours is a narrow view.
 

Red Storm

Lifer
Oct 2, 2005
14,233
234
106
If what KD did was such a bad personal decision why is he thriving? Yours is a narrow view.
Huh? No shit he's thriving, he's a really good basketball player who joined an already historically great team. The point is that it's a dick move to the overall parity of the league and that KD does not have that competitive spirit that you expect a superstar to have. If you don't understand that from my previous posts there's really no point in me saying it again, but KD thriving has nothing to do with anything I've said.
 
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