Discussion 2024 USA Election Thread: Biden and Dems might have problems in 2024 swing states - The Gaza Issue

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Paratus

Lifer
Jun 4, 2004
16,843
13,774
146
How do you feel about dark matter?
Great example! The rotation of galaxies should tear themselves apart. They don't. They behave as if there is more gravity holding them together than all the visible matter we can identify. The galaxies behave as if they have more "matter". This "matter" if that's what it is doesn't appear to interact with light the way regular matter does. It behaves as if it's "dark".

Dark Matter is a description of a physical effect we have identified. We have several hypothesis on what dark matter may be but until one becomes a full blown theory we'll call it dark matter.
 

IronWing

No Lifer
Jul 20, 2001
69,505
27,801
136
How do you feel about dark matter?
Dark matter is a conjecture that, to date, doesn't have a valid hypothesis to test. Various hypotheses on the nature of dark matter have been proposed and dismissed for lack of falsifiability. General relativity fails to match observation so I can see why dark matter was proposed and I don't see any issue with the proposal. Someone just needs to figure out a way to test the proposal.
 

APU_Fusion

Senior member
Dec 16, 2013
971
1,477
136
Boy, that woke catholic, agnostic, atheist baby eating President Biden sure knows how to funnel dark matter funds through China via Kenya.
 
Reactions: Leeea

Ajay

Lifer
Jan 8, 2001
16,094
8,106
136
This, of course, ignores that colloquial English often features the usage of the word "evolution" being applied to things other than living organisms. I'm not sure if you're trying to play into the whole bit here of people talking past each other regarding language usage and how we don't all have a 100% agreement on how terms are defined/used, if you are, then well-played, if not, then... well, welcome to the party, I suppose
A bit, but also being a grumpy old man about the bastardization of the word evolution.
 

MrSquished

Lifer
Jan 14, 2013
21,911
20,202
136
Language doesn't evolve, it develops. It's not a living organism. It is not trying to reproduce. It's not subject to selection pressure. Language can be altered more quickly, say, if a nation is conquered and the language of the new overlords becomes the official language of governance and business, etc. Of course, sometimes people are attached to maintaining older languages, but that's a different story.

Please. Ask any PhD linguist if language evolves. Go for it. Do some googling. Have fun!
 

Ajay

Lifer
Jan 8, 2001
16,094
8,106
136
"Metaphysical entity" trumps "god" as the mother of sloppy definitions. If entities can be shown to interact and influence decay events, that would necessarily remove them from the metaphysical realm and make them amenable to science. Until some sort of evidence is found that suggests that such entities are influencing random events, the hypothesis of their existence is unnecessary.
Consider the statement: "The only factual statements are ones for which empirical evidence exists." [The philosophy of Materialism]
It's self annihilating.
 

Ajay

Lifer
Jan 8, 2001
16,094
8,106
136
Please. Ask any PhD linguist if language evolves. Go for it. Do some googling. Have fun!
Newer languages are not significantly more efficient than older ones. Neither than are more 'fit' to their purpose (or survival). Linguists use the fact that there are "pressures" that exist that do create changes in language as close enough to call it evolution. But it's not really evolution. There are many factors involved in changes in language over time - evolution is only one in a more allegorical sense. Go ahead, google it, look it up - it'll be fun!
 

MrSquished

Lifer
Jan 14, 2013
21,911
20,202
136
Newer languages are not significantly more efficient than older ones. Neither than are more 'fit' to their purpose (or survival). Linguists use the fact that there are "pressures" that exist that do create changes in language as close enough to call it evolution. But it's not really evolution. There are many factors involved in changes in language over time - evolution is only one in a more allegorical sense. Go ahead, google it, look it up - it'll be fun!

I already know the answer because it's just part of the knowledge I have accumulated. So I just did a quick Google and it was satisfying.

Not only does language evolve as far as meanings go and new words, but also pronunciations change.

Language evolves.

I don't know why you're totally tying that completely into human evolution, although obviously those are somewhat related because some of language evolving is related to evolution from new technologies to cultural barriers being broken down, etc.

You can find the same thing as below from a lot of sources.


Is English changing?

Yes, and so is every other human language! Language is always changing, evolving, and adapting to the needs of its users.
 

pmv

Lifer
May 30, 2008
13,273
8,198
136
I already know the answer because it's just part of the knowledge I have accumulated. So I just did a quick Google and it was satisfying.

Not only does language evolve as far as meanings go and new words, but also pronunciations change.

Language evolves.

I don't know why you're totally tying that completely into human evolution, although obviously those are somewhat related because some of language evolving is related to evolution from new technologies to cultural barriers being broken down, etc.

You can find the same thing as below from a lot of sources.


Is English changing?

Yes, and so is every other human language! Language is always changing, evolving, and adapting to the needs of its users.


Depends what one means by 'evolve'. The meaning of the term in biology is, I suspect, more restrictive than the non-specialist use of the word. And linguists are not specialists when it comes to the word 'evolve' as used by biologists. I mean, do computers 'evolve'? Do cars? In some ways yes, but clearly not in the way that living organisms do.

And does language adapt to the needs of its users, or do the users of language change it to fit their needs? And then that brings us back to the question of who the users of the language are, whether all those users all have the _same_ needs, and what is the distribution of power among them that determines whose needs take primacy when it comes to deciding how the language changes.
 

MrSquished

Lifer
Jan 14, 2013
21,911
20,202
136
Depends what one means by 'evolve'. The meaning of the term in biology is, I suspect, more restrictive than the non-specialist use of the word. And linguists are not specialists when it comes to the word 'evolve' as used by biologists. I mean, do computers 'evolve'? Do cars? In some ways yes, but clearly not in the way that living organisms do.

And does language adapt to the needs of its users, or do the users of language change it to fit their needs? And then that brings us back to the question of who the users of the language are, whether all those users all have the _same_ needs, and what is the distribution of power among them that determines whose needs take primacy when it comes to deciding how the language changes.

There isn't some big arbiter of language who decides how these things happen. Often times they happen organically, You may think a dictionary is the arbiter but they're not, oftentimes they're adapting to what is happening in society. That's why language is an evolving thing.

No it's not a biological entity and no it's not technology. Evolve is not a word that's just beholden to biology either.

I think perhaps some people just need to evolve on about what the word evolve actually means.
 

pmv

Lifer
May 30, 2008
13,273
8,198
136
You may think a dictionary is the arbiter but they're not, oftentimes they're adapting to what is happening in society.

That's what I previously said to you! You seem to have swapped sides on that one. Earlier you were citing dictionaries as the ultimate arbiter of language!

And as for "adapting to what is happening in society", well, yes, and what is happening in society is almost always a power-struggle of some sort. You can call that 'evolution' I guess, as biological evolution involves a form of power struggle also, but you seem to be trying to argue that 'language' has some independent existence and that it changes itself somehow, rather than being the product of an ongoing conflict among the people who use it.
 

MrSquished

Lifer
Jan 14, 2013
21,911
20,202
136
That's what I previously said to you! You seem to have swapped sides on that one. Earlier you were citing dictionaries as the ultimate arbiter of language!

And as for "adapting to what is happening in society", well, yes, and what is happening in society is almost always a power-struggle of some sort. You can call that 'evolution' I guess, as biological evolution involves a form of power struggle also, but you seem to be trying to argue that 'language' has some independent existence and that it changes itself somehow, rather than being the product of an ongoing conflict among the people who use it.

Well I never meant that language evolves by itself, obviously humans are quite involved in that evolving.

And also language is power. I've said it many times as to responses to people in political discussions in the past. For example African Americans taking ownership of the n-word, is completely about how powerful languages and trying to take that power back.

Also people who poo poo what Trump says it's just stuff he says. Well yeah that stuff is what launches 1,000 ships into war. Language spurs hatred and bias into violence. Language is extremely powerful.

But it does evolve.

Also in regards to the word agnostic, I think that definition has evolved and not because of dictionaries but dictionaries have just kept the correct record of it.
 

Paratus

Lifer
Jun 4, 2004
16,843
13,774
146
Nah. Languages evolve. Words just like biological entities are copied imperfectly. Most imperfect copies die some become successful and continue on as new words.
 
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Leeea

Diamond Member
Apr 3, 2020
3,696
5,431
136
Have you considered the existence of a teapot in orbit between the Earth and Mars?
Close.

Have you considered a coffee pot, in the trunk of a sports car, in orbit between earth and mars, signed by a bunch of people without management . . .
 
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Reactions: hal2kilo

Fenixgoon

Lifer
Jun 30, 2003
31,805
10,342
136
Our universe is a simulation and dark matter is the gap resulting from a coded approximation for galactic rotations we weren't ever supposed to be able to calculate.
Hey there's only a 50% chance we're a simulation (which i hope we are).
 

pmv

Lifer
May 30, 2008
13,273
8,198
136
Nah. Languages evolve. Words just like biological entities are copied imperfectly. Most imperfect copies die some become successful and continue on as new words.

But what determines which die and which become successful? The deliberate choices of humans. It's a sort of evolution but it's selective breeding rather than natural selection. And a selective breeding that is driven by political factors.
 

pmv

Lifer
May 30, 2008
13,273
8,198
136
Great example! The rotation of galaxies should tear themselves apart. They don't. They behave as if there is more gravity holding them together than all the visible matter we can identify. The galaxies behave as if they have more "matter". This "matter" if that's what it is doesn't appear to interact with light the way regular matter does. It behaves as if it's "dark".

Dark Matter is a description of a physical effect we have identified. We have several hypothesis on what dark matter may be but until one becomes a full blown theory we'll call it dark matter.


I'm no sort of expert on it, but it seems to me dark matter is a little bit like the hypothesized mystery planet that was once thought to explain the anomalous orbit of mercury*.

Ultimately it turned out, of course, that the odd behavior of Mercury was due to the differences between Einsteinian dynamics and the Newtonian model. And the issue existed because the Newtonian view didn't quite match reality, rather than because there was an extra, unseen, planet between the Sun and Mercury.

Interesting that at the other end of the Solar System it worked out differently - the odd behaviour of Uranus was because there _was_ another physical body out there, i.e. Neptune. So seems that sometimes there really is another entity we haven't seen, and sometimes it's that the theory is wrong.

Likewise, perhaps Dark Matter actually exists, or perhaps it's an artifact of incomplete theories about gravity?

I don't see that "God" really fits into this either way.



* I gather it was provisionally called "Vulcan"

 
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pmv

Lifer
May 30, 2008
13,273
8,198
136
The trouble with the "God hypothesis" is that it explains too much. You can explain away _anything_ by just declaring "God did it". Aside from everything else, it's just _boring_.
 

hal2kilo

Lifer
Feb 24, 2009
23,651
10,515
136
I'm no sort of expert on it, but it seems to me dark matter is a little bit like the hypothesized mystery planet that was once thought to explain the anomalous orbit of mercury*.

Ultimately it turned out, of course, that the odd behavior of Mercury was due to the differences between Einsteinian dynamics and the Newtonian model. And the issue existed because the Newtonian view didn't quite match reality, rather than because there was an extra, unseen, planet between the Sun and Mercury.

Interesting that at the other end of the Solar System it worked out differently - the odd behaviour of Uranus was because there _was_ another physical body out there, i.e. Neptune. So seems that sometimes there really is another entity we haven't seen, and sometimes it's that the theory is wrong.

Likewise, perhaps Dark Matter actually exists, or perhaps it's an artifact of incomplete theories about gravity?

I don't see that "God" really fits into this either way.



* I gather it was provisionally called "Vulcan"

There's a lot of 6 blind men and the elephant going on in a lot of physics. We see things and interpret them with not enough data yet. Too many mathematicians, not enough physical/mechanical physicists.
 
Reactions: Leeea and IronWing

MrSquished

Lifer
Jan 14, 2013
21,911
20,202
136
But what determines which die and which become successful? The deliberate choices of humans. It's a sort of evolution but it's selective breeding rather than natural selection. And a selective breeding that is driven by political factors.

You are only thinking of language in a political sense. Language evolves for many subjects.

And I agree strongly that language is used by oppressors. But also, it can be used to take some power back, and we've seen that a lot in the last few hundred years thank God. Now we have a group trying to roll back that process though. Conservatives
 
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Ajay

Lifer
Jan 8, 2001
16,094
8,106
136
I already know the answer because it's just part of the knowledge I have accumulated. So I just did a quick Google and it was satisfying.

Not only does language evolve as far as meanings go and new words, but also pronunciations change.

Language evolves.

I don't know why you're totally tying that completely into human evolution, although obviously those are somewhat related because some of language evolving is related to evolution from new technologies to cultural barriers being broken down, etc.

You can find the same thing as below from a lot of sources.


Is English changing?

Yes, and so is every other human language! Language is always changing, evolving, and adapting to the needs of its users.
That article uses the word 'evolving' just once - and uses no other form of the word. I think it's just laziness. Or, as someone else pointed out, it has become a colloquial term. Anyway, it bugs me because evolution has a very precise scientific meaning. People wind up saying things like they have evolved into a better person; uh, no, you *learned* how to be a better person. Anyway - get off my lawn

 

MrSquished

Lifer
Jan 14, 2013
21,911
20,202
136
That article uses the word 'evolving' just once - and uses no other form of the word. I think it's just laziness. Or, as someone else pointed out, it has become a colloquial term. Anyway, it bugs me because evolution has a very precise scientific meaning. People wind up saying things like they have evolved into a better person; uh, no, you *learned* how to be a better person. Anyway - get off my lawn


Oh it's all good. Sorry if I was little snappy before I thought you were another poster.

But anyway I looked at a bunch of sites last night and it's a very common word to use in regards to language. I was an English major and heard it used at university. I used to Read Noam Chomsky like any good liberal, and he was also a linguist.

Sure a word can be overused but I do think for language it's quite appropriate because as we evolve language evolves. It really is quite appropriate.
 
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